Abellio wins West Midlands franchise

Stefan44 · 10 Aug 2017

Improvements are always welcome.

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 10 Aug 2017

Stefan44 said:
Improvements are always welcome.

Indeed, this is certainly a growth franchise. I do think more could be done with the WCML service (i.e. IC quality trains, not that 350/1s are bad), but otherwise it looks rather good.

ag51ruk · 10 Aug 2017

jcollins said:
Worth noting Crewe to Euston will be routed away from Stone with a new hourly Birmingham to Crewe via Stone service being introduced, which will obviously require additional EMUs.

323s have been used in the past on peak Manchester - Birmingham trains (by FNW) and on Liverpool - Birmingham (by Central) - perhaps the 323s could find a home running north of New Street, on trains to Crewe and Liverpool? 1 x 3 car on the new Birmingham - Crewe service, and 2 x 3 car on the Birmingham - Liverpool. The acceleration would certainly help them find paths on the West Coast.

urpert · 10 Aug 2017

Mojo said:
That's the brand created by West Midlands Rail for the local services in the West Midlands (ex-West Midlands county area plus neighbouring local authorities).

Ah, sorry, you're right (effectively the new Centro livery then?)

northwichcat · 10 Aug 2017

Bletchleyite said:
While they could be refitted, they don't really have a metro-style interior as they are (that implies side-facing seating).

Not necessarily. Based on DfT's definition of 'metro style interior' used in various ITTs the 700s have a metro style interior and the SWT 455s and LO 172s almost match the requirement.

hwl · 10 Aug 2017

jcollins said:
Or it's when CAF will have completed delivery of the Northern order or when Stadler will have completed delivery of the Anglia order, or possibly just the earliest date any manufacturer can start delivery of a new train order?

Siemens could deliver earlier...

hwl · 10 Aug 2017

jcollins said:
Not necessarily. Based on DfT's definition of 'metro style interior' used in various ITTs the 700s have a metro style interior and the SWT 455s and LO 172s almost match the requirement.

But the metro interior has been defined as London Overground style in this case:

On top of this, there will be standing room for 50,000 passengers in Birmingham in metro-style carriages, similar to the ones used on the London Overground, for short cross-city journeys,

If it wasn't LO style how would you get the 50,000 standing space?

CentralTrainer · 10 Aug 2017

hwl said:
If DfT were being very brazen adding a new 6th car to some internally refurbished 707s (bench seats a la London Overground see below so not current 707 internals)

"and standing room for an additional 5,000 passengers in London." sounds about right for Anglia sized big vestibules but without the tip down seats.

Would it therefore be similar to this layout?

Would have much preferred something like the Siemens MX3000 as used on the Oslo Metro system

TheDavibob · 10 Aug 2017

CentralTrainer said:
Would it therefore be similar to this layout?

Would have much preferred something like the Siemens MX3000 as used on the Oslo Metro system

I'd agree, there's no need for fully metro seating on the Cross-city. I know it gets very full in peaks, but off-peak it can be reasonably quiet, certainly no use getting rid of all normal seats.

S8-style interior, similar to the Oslo above but with longitudinal seating along one side, would work reasonably well - the Met line and the cross-city cater to a similar market (busy inner city coupled with reasonably light suburban loadings).

northwichcat · 10 Aug 2017

hwl said:
Siemens could deliver earlier...

How soon? I thought a reason for TPE and Anglia not using Siemens was they couldn't deliver a fleet of new trains by the end of 2019.

northwichcat · 10 Aug 2017

centraltrains said:
Are the 323s going or are the 100 coaches for cross city in addition?

The number of new carriages for those services is 100. The number of additional carriages specifically for those services is unknown. Most people are predicting the 323s will leave but I don't think there's been any official confirmation yet.

CosherB · 10 Aug 2017

Do we think that Abellio commit to this WM 'livery'?

https://www.tfwm.org.uk/news/new-look-for-local-trains-unveiled/

CentralTrainer · 10 Aug 2017

TheDavibob said:
I'd agree, there's no need for fully metro seating on the Cross-city. I know it gets very full in peaks, but off-peak it can be reasonably quiet, certainly no use getting rid of all normal seats.

S8-style interior, similar to the Oslo above but with longitudinal seating along one side, would work reasonably well - the Met line and the cross-city cater to a similar market (busy inner city coupled with reasonably light suburban loadings).

They have both in Oslo - they're hidden behind the bin and glass partition on the image above - with longitudinal seating both sides of that section

northwichcat · 10 Aug 2017

hwl said:
If it wasn't LO style how would you get the 50,000 standing space?

Standing space for 50,000 in the morning peak or standing space for 50,000 over the course of the day?

hwl · 10 Aug 2017

centraltrains said:
Are the 323s going or are the 100 coaches for cross city in addition?

100(+*) extra cars would be about 2.5times the number of extra cars needed to run all cross city at max length so it looks like the 323s are going.

*Dft says 100+ in one place.

If the 100+ is more correct than 100, then 102 with 6 car might make sense but might be about 1 unit short depending on diagramming & changes so 108 might make more sense.

oversteer · 10 Aug 2017

I've grown to like LM. I hope things don't change too much and job losses are minimal.

jonesy3001 · 10 Aug 2017

Mordac said:
As someone in the LM Area (Northampton, soon to be commuting to Coventry), while this doesn't deliver my wish of having some Northampton services go up the Trent Valley for better national connectivity northbound, it's nice to see that Govia lost (maybe the invisible guards will start showing their faces more often now), that Porterbrook's gamble backfired (although I don't have anything against the 323s), and that there will be some new DMUs. I do hope all the 319s, 150s, and 153s go.

The 150s are due to transfer to northern either this year or next.

northwichcat · 10 Aug 2017

jonesy3001 said:
The 150s are due to transfer to northern either this year or next.

But their due to be replaced by ex-GWR 153s initially.

northwichcat · 10 Aug 2017

hwl said:
100(+*) extra cars would be about 2.5times the number of extra cars needed to run all cross city at max length so it looks like the 323s are going.

*Dft says 100+ in one place.

If the 100+ is more correct than 100, then 102 with 6 car might make sense but might be about 1 unit short depending on diagramming & changes so 108 might make more sense.

It's interesting they appear to have rounded the number of new carriages for the headlines but when the Northern franchise was let they didn't - the headlines referred to 281 new carriages for the franchise.

hwl · 10 Aug 2017

jcollins said:
How soon? I thought a reason for TPE and Anglia not using Siemens was they couldn't deliver a fleet of new trains by the end of 2019.

Neither can Bombardier but that didn't stop them getting the Anglia work.
Siemens being between 5-10% more expensive for a comparable spec. product probably made the difference between total fleet replacement or not in the Anglia bid. Ditto the first SW win.

The London end improvements seem to be targetted for May 2021 TT change.
Krefeld only has a long steady build of Velaros for DB after the 717 are finished next year along with arround 300 jobs going there next year

northwichcat · 10 Aug 2017

hwl said:
Neither can Bombardier but that didn't stop them getting the Anglia work.
Siemens being between 5-10% more expensive for a comparable spec. product probably made the difference between total fleet replacement or not in the Anglia bid. Ditto the first SW win.

Don't Siemens include more 'after sales service' in their price than the likes of Bombardier or CAF?

hwl · 10 Aug 2017

jcollins said:
Don't Siemens include more 'after sales service' in their price than the likes of Bombardier or CAF?

Traditionally yes, but the numbers I mentioned were on a like for like basis.

More modern stock that is theoretically more reliable and needs less maintenance (even compared to Desiro or Electrostar) is hitting the value of 'after sales services' significantly. Bidders are also bench marking such costs on a pan European level leading to margin compression for the builders.

[just don't ask how I know any of this

]

pdeaves · 10 Aug 2017

Interestingly the press release contains the line "more space for passengers will be rolled out on the Marston Vale line".

Specifically, reference to "more space" rather than new trains and no reference to seats. With short platforms that don't lend themselves to tagging on an extra 153 and low-ish line speed, does this mean 230s, I wonder?

HLE · 10 Aug 2017

Bletchleyite said:
153s won't be any use on their own because a 2019 compliant bog will remove too many seats. So I doubt they will stay long term unless formed into permanent pairs (i.e. 155s).

Surprised at the colour scheme not including Abellio red and being more like the existing LM one plus the orange. Is that because of the proposed generic WM livery perhaps? The font is definitely Abellio though.

Lock the bog out.

Simple solution

northwichcat · 10 Aug 2017

pdeaves said:
Interestingly the press release contains the line "more space for passengers will be rolled out on the Marston Vale line".

Specifically, reference to "more space" rather than new trains and no reference to seats. With short platforms that don't lend themselves to tagging on an extra 153 and low-ish line speed, does this mean 230s, I wonder?

I'd suggest unless we hear otherwise the Sprinters will go and 2 car 170/172s will be internally cascaded to replace them following on from the new DMUs being introduced to boost capacity on the Snow Hill lines.

Bletchleyite · 10 Aug 2017

pdeaves said:
Interestingly the press release contains the line "more space for passengers will be rolled out on the Marston Vale line".

Specifically, reference to "more space" rather than new trains and no reference to seats. With short platforms that don't lend themselves to tagging on an extra 153 and low-ish line speed, does this mean 230s, I wonder?

If there can be three of them so a spare lives at Bletchley, I'd say that would be welcome. The as-built layout would work fine, with most trains being very quiet but the standing room coming in useful for the school trains.

Given that new stock will come with EWR so it only has to last another 10-20 years, it's hard to imagine a line more suited to them.

CentralTrainer · 10 Aug 2017

oversteer said:
I've grown to like LM. I hope things don't change too much and job losses are minimal.

Agreed - the vast majority of the LM staff I've found to be brilliant at their jobs - hopefully the one or two who don't fall into this category will either improve with training or will not be required anymore.

driver_m · 10 Aug 2017

One thing I've not seen mentioned. Does this mean Barlaston could be re-used if there's a service from Brum to Stoke ran by this new franchise holder.

Bletchleyite · 10 Aug 2017

driver_m said:
One thing I've not seen mentioned. Does this mean Barlaston could be re-used if there's a service from Brum to Stoke ran by this new franchise holder.

I believe either Barlaston or Wedgwood is meant to reopen, the other will then close properly.

Darkinsider · 10 Aug 2017

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Abellio wins West Midlands franchise

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