195s truly awful, not a step forward

[D6130]

Getting back to 195s one of the reasons why they're often overflowing with rubbish is that the bins in them are tiny and extremely difficult to find. You could barely fit a couple of empty cans in them so no wonder the Saturday night drinkers just leave their cans and bottles on the seats and tables!

Fully agree.

 

[alexl92]

Unfortunately I think that a lot of the cleanliness problems with Northern units are caused by the people who travel on them. If you are ever on a train out of Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool/Blackpool/York/Hull/Newcastle/Sheffield, etc. on a Friday or Saturday night, you will witness some apocalyptic scenes of drinking, spilling, urinating, defecating, projectile vomiting, feet on seats after walking through the aforementioned substances, etc, etc. I'm not just talking about young people here....all too often the culprits are middle-aged couples, or groups of middle-aged men or women out 'on the lash'. The TransPennine Lager Trail - formerly known as the TransPennine Ale Trail - is a particular problem and has now over-spilled onto the Calder Valley Line, with Hebden Bridge becoming a popular destination for these binge drinking gangs of both genders. It would take an extremely thorough and very expensive cleaning regime to deal with the aftermath of this sort of behaviour.

This analysis of the behaviour on trains on a weekend is spot on. I'd actually advocate a total ban on the consumption of alcohol on certain routes (including the transpennine route) on a weekend becase for everyone who isn't totally sloshed, it makes for an awful experience of public transport.

However, Northern also do not clean their trains properly. I know they've invested hugely in the refurb programme, and that was badly needed, but the ongoing maintenance of them is frankly terrible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This analysis of the behaviour on trains on a weekend is spot on. I'd actually advocate a total ban on the consumption of alcohol on certain routes (including the transpennine route) on a weekend becase for everyone who isn't totally sloshed, it makes for an awful experience of public transport.

However, Northern also do not clean their trains properly. I know they've invested hugely in the refurb programme, and that was badly needed, but the ongoing maintenance of them is frankly terrible.

The problem there is not consumption on board, it is consumption before boarding. There is not much that can be done about that bar getting the Merseyrail style heavies in.

 

[BeccaOnATrain]

I'd actually advocate a total ban on the consumption of alcohol on certain routes (including the transpennine route) on a weekend becase for everyone who isn't totally sloshed, it makes for an awful experience of public transport.

Ugh, sorry to derail thread somewhat - but totally agree here.. I hate travelling back to Manchester from Yorkshire on some of those routes in the early evening on a Saturday night. The last time after a trip out to take photos in yorkshire during the day I was sat on a table on my own when a group of loud drunk blokes with tins of beer came on then also started throwing a sex toy around the carriage and trying to get my attention with it..
Going to make a wild assumption that they didn't bother to take their rubbish off the train too.

Do certain trains mostly run only a certain route? Like, I wonder if the 195s up to Barrow might be less damaged and filthy as they've not been put through so much abuse as the other lines? Or do the trains get moved around so much it's not really possible to distinguish between them?

 

[Philip]

Has anyone noticed the slightly different exhaust noise on 195108? I heard it a few weeks ago and again this morning - it sounds a bit throatier and a bit like a class 101/185.

 

[driverd]

Ugh, sorry to derail thread somewhat - but totally agree here.. I hate travelling back to Manchester from Yorkshire on some of those routes in the early evening on a Saturday night. The last time after a trip out to take photos in yorkshire during the day I was sat on a table on my own when a group of loud drunk blokes with tins of beer came on then also started throwing a sex toy around the carriage and trying to get my attention with it..
Going to make a wild assumption that they didn't bother to take their rubbish off the train too.

Part of the issue is policing. At another TOC, on notorious party trains, we would often move customers who were sober to first class, or try and section off the train to ensure minimal mixing of groups. Often staff visibility can be a major problem at northern and I think this doesn't help the matter.

Do certain trains mostly run only a certain route? Like, I wonder if the 195s up to Barrow might be less damaged and filthy as they've not been put through so much abuse as the other lines? Or do the trains get moved around so much it's not really possible to distinguish between them?

Unfortunately not, no. They're all cycled around to ensure they all get access to a depot etc. A unit might be on York - Blackpool one day, stay at Neville Hill over night, then be allocated to Leeds - Nottingham, with a swap to Manchester at the end of the day seeing it spend the evening at Newton Heath. Subsequently it could then end up on a Barrow or Windermere. Although northern have allocated depots for units, in reality, it doesn't mean a lot as all units are gradually cycled across the network.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Unfortunately not, no. They're all cycled around to ensure they all get access to a depot etc. A unit might be on York - Blackpool one day, stay at Neville Hill over night, then be allocated to Leeds - Nottingham, with a swap to Manchester at the end of the day seeing it spend the evening at Newton Heath. Subsequently it could then end up on a Barrow or Windermere. Although northern have allocated depots for units, in reality, it doesn't mean a lot as all units are gradually cycled across the network.

That being said, the Barrow/Windermere units do seem cleaner at the end of the day than they've been in the past few years on Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting back to 195s one of the reasons why they're often overflowing with rubbish is that the bins in them are tiny and extremely difficult to find. You could barely fit a couple of empty cans in them so no wonder the Saturday night drinkers just leave their cans and bottles on the seats and tables!

Decent sized bins in the vestibules are the way to go. Very few trains have that (but enough do that it clearly isn't some sort of faux-security nonsense). Fairly sure one of the 350 subclasses (forget which one but it's not /1) has those.

Awkward underseat bins are easy to miss and hard to use, particularly to put your rubbish in on the way off the train with luggage.

Ugh, sorry to derail thread somewhat - but totally agree here.. I hate travelling back to Manchester from Yorkshire on some of those routes in the early evening on a Saturday night. The last time after a trip out to take photos in yorkshire during the day I was sat on a table on my own when a group of loud drunk blokes with tins of beer came on then also started throwing a sex toy around the carriage and trying to get my attention with it..
Going to make a wild assumption that they didn't bother to take their rubbish off the train too.

That sort of totally unacceptable behaviour would be solved by Merseyrail-style "heavies" being on board and throwing them off at the most awkward, middle of nowhere station possible (and briefing other trains not to let them on).

I bet they were drunk before boarding, though, and so the on-board consumption was incidental. Most train journeys aren't long enough to get drunk to the extent of being disorderly during them unless you're swigging from a bottle of spirits.

 

[py_megapixel]

Decent sized bins in the vestibules are the way to go. Very few trains have that (but enough do that it clearly isn't some sort of faux-security nonsense). Fairly sure one of the 350 subclasses (forget which one but it's not /1) has those.

Awkward underseat bins are easy to miss and hard to use, particularly to put your rubbish in on the way off the train with luggage

323s have large bins near the doors. I think they're a good design, apart from the spring-loaded flap which snaps shut far too quickly.

They're also mounted pretty much flush with the wall, which means they don't intrude into the available space.

Of course, with trains being specified to fit as many people as possible into the same number of carriages (presumably to avoid the need for costly platform extensions), everything is competing for the available space in the design, so I suppose it's inevitable that literal rubbish is a pretty low priority.

 

[D6130]

and throwing them off at the most awkward, middle of nowhere station possible (and briefing other trains not to let them on).

Ulleskelf? Ravensthorpe? Kirkstall Forge?

 

[STINT47]

I'm sat on a 195 now. I very really use them and a few thoughts come to mind.

They're an improvement on a pacer but that's not saying much.

Who authorised only two car trains? My service is full and it's not peak tines.

The seats are to hard. Northern did a road show letting people try different seats. Ate the ones we got the ones that were most popular?

The window Allington is awful. Not one bay of four near me lines up with the windows.

Overall the train is an improvement but has a lot of flaws. If we are to level up the north and give everyone a London style service they'll need to do better than this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The idea of the 2-car sets is that in the end they will end up being the only DMUs left and allocated to quiet branch lines that will never need any more than a 2-car. For now the idea was that the 2s would work in pairs.

However it seems to be just too much of a temptation for Northern (who should, at present, have a massive surfeit of rolling stock given their rather lopped timetable).

 

[py_megapixel]

Who authorised only two car trains? My service is full and it's not peak tines.

It would have been the DfT, under Chris Grayling, an utterly incompetent minister who was seemingly hell-bent on destroying the railway's case for existence.

The seats are to hard. Northern did a road show letting people try different seats. Ate the ones we got the ones that were most popular?

The roadshow entailed asking passengers which of three different seat designs they preferred. Edit: there was an incorrect statement here about the least preferable design being chosen - please see my post below for clarification.
I think it's likely that roadshow was just an Arriva public relations stunt to make it look to the general public that they were improving things, when in reality for the vast majority of them it would still be the same ancient stock running their services for months if not years to come.

The window Allington is awful. Not one bay of four near me lines up with the windows.

Well, it's not quite as bad as a 150, but I don't think it would have taken that long for someone to sit down and come up with a seat arrangement that matched the windows. Not doing so makes it look like they just couldn't be a***ed.

(I'm assuming you've had some autocorrect interference with the words "too", "are" and "alignment"!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, it's not quite as bad as a 150, but I don't think it would have taken that long for someone to sit down and come up with a seat arrangement that matched the windows. Not doing so makes it look like they just couldn't be a***ed.

The windows are the size of a seating bay (as demonstrated by the exact same windows on 397s with bays aligned to them), so yes, this is the problem. It's just lazy.

They are aligned at the vehicle ends, that said.

 

[Neptune]

The roadshow entailed asking passengers which of three different seat designs they preferred. Infamously, but perhaps unsurprisingly, the one that was chosen by the fewest people is what ended up being fitted. The roadshow was just an Arriva public relations stunt to make it look to the general public that they were improving things, when in reality for the vast majority of them it would still be the same ancient stock running their services for months if not years to come.

The results of this roadshow were never disclosed as far as I’m aware, even to us staff, so is this actually true and can you give us all a link to it?

I only ask as there are a few people on this forum well known for Northern bashing at any given chance even when unjustified. I was just hoping that this wasn’t one of those occasions and it is actually a fact.

 

[Killingworth]

Who authorised only two car trains? My service is full and it's not peak tines.

Whoever authorised trains without through corridor connections on a network serving mostly unstaffed stations clearly didn't sufficiently consider revenue protection or effective load distribution when working in multiple.

 

[py_megapixel]

The results of this roadshow were never disclosed as far as I’m aware, even to us staff, so is this actually true and can you give us all a link to it?

I only ask as there are a few people on this forum well known for Northern bashing at any given chance even when unjustified. I was just hoping that this wasn’t one of those occasions and it is actually a fact.

It's what I've heard before on these forums. If it is made up in the name of bashing Northern then I am not the originator of it, but I have amended my post to clarify that it is not official.


Edit: This is wrong, but not completely. Here are two of @Neptune's posts from another thread:

The seat roadshow exercise was just a typical early days PR stunt which meant absolutely nothing because a decision had already been made. After it all went quiet for a year or so after the events we were informed through internal communication that no winner was clear and the seat would be a design mixture of the 3 on display. Obviously this didn’t happen and a bog standard sub standard design was chosen. I think the powers that be hope that nobody remembers the seat roadshow.

The other 2 choices were vastly superior compared to the budget one they chose.

So it looks like they did indeed ignore the results of the roadshow, whatever they were, and go for a cheap option. But the one chosen being the worst of the three was the opinion of a specific poster, not necessarily the consensus of the public.

Apologies for any confusion caused, and many thanks for pointing it out, as I wouldn't have thought to go back and check if not!

 

[Bikeman78]

So it looks like they did indeed ignore the results of the roadshow, whatever they were, and go for a cheap option. But the one chosen being the worst of the three was the opinion of a specific poster, not necessarily the consensus of the public.

Apologies for any confusion caused.

Ian Walmsley has mentioned several times in Modern Railways that the chosen seat was not the most popular.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ian Walmsley has mentioned several times in Modern Railways that the chosen seat was not the most popular.

The chosen seat wasn't offered, was it? Rather it was a hybrid of the one Northern wanted (ironing board) and the one the passengers wanted (FISA LEAN), which produced the contoured-base ironing board which is actually a pretty decent seat?

 

[ChrisC]

The idea of the 2-car sets is that in the end they will end up being the only DMUs left and allocated to quiet branch lines that will never need any more than a 2-car. For now the idea was that the 2s would work in pairs.

However it seems to be just too much of a temptation for Northern (who should, at present, have a massive surfeit of rolling stock given their rather lopped timetable).

How many more years will they be running these 2 car trains on busy services linking major cities like Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham? That certainly isn’t a quiet branch line. These 2 car 195s have been absolutely rammed between Sheffield and Nottingham on Saturday mornings recently, partly as a result of EMR reduced timetables and short forms. I know that there are problems with capacity at Leeds for longer trains on this route. The 158s that used to operate on this route were a bit tatty but were certainly more comfortable for the 2 hour journey.

 

[skyhigh]

How many more years will they be running these 2 car trains on busy services linking major cities like Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham? That certainly isn’t a quiet branch line. These 2 car 195s have been absolutely rammed between Sheffield and Nottingham on Saturday mornings recently, partly as a result of EMR reduced timetables and short forms. I know that there are problems with capacity at Leeds for longer trains on this route.

Because of the issue at Leeds you generally can't get any longer than 2 car trains on Nottingham services, so that's not really the fault of the rolling stock - and at least 195s have plenty of standing capacity with the wide doorways (though admittedly more hand holds would be welcome). 158s would also be pretty crammed - at least 195s generally have better ventilation inside to make it feel a bit airier, and it's easier to get off when the train is packed due to the doors!

Either way, the restriction at Leeds is planned in to be solved which will mean the 2 cars will be replaced with 3 cars.

 

[hooverboy]

The chosen seat wasn't offered, was it? Rather it was a hybrid of the one Northern wanted (ironing board) and the one the passengers wanted (FISA LEAN), which produced the contoured-base ironing board which is actually a pretty decent seat?

So what is the point of all these "consultations" if there is no intention of implementing them?

It's a fairly clear distinction by the sound of it:
1)Northern wanted the cheapest option.
2)The passengers wanted the most comfortable option.

What Northern seem to have missed in this equation is that if passengers are experiencing levels of discomfort during travel, they will opt for an alternative method of transport if possible.Such action is detrimental to maximising revenue.

The adage,penny wise,pound foolish springs to mind.

Several other TOC's are in need of learning this bitter lesson too(ahem...thameslink)

 

[AM9]

So what is the point of all these "consultations" if there is no intention of implementing them?

It's a fairly clear distinction by the sound of it:
1)Northern wanted the cheapest option.
2)The passengers wanted the most comfortable option.

What Northern seem to have missed in this equation is that if passengers are experiencing levels of discomfort during travel, they will opt for an alternative method of transport if possible.Such action is detrimental to maximising revenue.

The adage,penny wise,pound foolish springs to mind.

Several other TOC's are in need of learning this bitter lesson too(ahem...thameslink)

But as those who regularly travel on Thameslink say that as the great return to work continues and the winter fades, passengers are returning on those services so it seems that the trains aren't really driving the public to the roads. The 195s are different though because whillst the poor decision on seat fabric might be a talking point until it is fixed, the poor ride quality is probably here for the duration.

 

[Mikey C]

But as those who regularly travel on Thameslink say that as the great return to work continues and the winter fades, passengers are returning on those services so it seems that the trains aren't really driving the public to the roads. The 195s are different though because whillst the poor decision on seat fabric might be a talking point until it is fixed, the poor ride quality is probably here for the duration.

Commuters into London don't really have a choice though of driving, there's no way vast numbers of commuters would choose to drive into London to go to the office.

 

[modernrail]

The problem there is not consumption on board, it is consumption before boarding. There is not much that can be done about that bar getting the Merseyrail style heavies in.

Then get them in! I remember when Merseyrail did that and it transformed the experience and attitude.

I have been drunk many times on northern and TPE trains, many many times. I have never thrown my drink or bodily fluid over seats or upset other passengers thinking the train is mine. There is a line between a bit of craic and anti social behaviour.

The only exception is the all night TPE services which must carry very few airport passengers and are a thing to behold, or certainly were when I was cutting my night out teeth. Even then though people mostly behaved, knackered after a good night out and thankful it was a train and not the dreaded middle of the night RRBS. Maybe it’s mostly our middle aged population that can’t handle its booze.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Then get them in! I remember when Merseyrail did that and it transformed the experience and attitude.

I have been drunk many times on northern and TPE trains, many many times. I have never thrown my drink or bodily fluid over seats or upset other passengers thinking the train is mine. There is a line between a bit of craic and anti social behaviour.

The only exception is the all night TPE services which must carry very few airport passengers and are a thing to behold, or certainly were when I was cutting my night out teeth. Even then though people mostly behaved, knackered after a good night out and thankful it was a train and not the dreaded middle of the night RRBS. Maybe it’s mostly our middle aged population that can’t handle its booze.

That's one benefit of living in Liverpool after a day at the match (read on the beer). When I fall asleep, I can't miss my stop.

 

[D6130]

Several other TOC's are in need of learning this bitter lesson too(ahem...thameslink)

Yes....my wife and I took part in the consultation exercise organised at Edinburgh Waverley for the class 385 seating choices - and just like Northern, they went for the cheapest option rather the the most popular and comfortable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes....my wife and I took part in the consultation exercise organised at Edinburgh Waverley for the class 385 seating choices - and just like Northern, they went for the cheapest option rather the the most popular and comfortable.

I tried the mockup of the 385 and told them in no uncertain terms that Standard was superior to 1st. Nothing changed. The Fainsa Sophia is designed to be a Standard/second class regional seat for journeys of up to half an hour or so - I don't entirely get why it's seen as suitable for 1st by so many TOCs!

I wait with bated breath to see if the issue I pointed out with the new Merseyrail seats (the protruding headrest into the middle of my and most peoples' back - it's quite low and would only be an actual headrest for children and adults under about 5') will be fixed or not. From the pictures I've seen of the actual units I think it has been changed slightly in shape, so sometimes I guess they do listen, but we shall see.

 

[D6130]

Getting back on topic, on the credit side I have to say that the 195s' acceleration is phenomenal....better than many EMUs. Their braking is pretty impressive too, although rather noisy (loud squealing) on the final stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting back on topic, on the credit side I have to say that the 195s' acceleration is phenomenal....better than many EMUs. Their braking is pretty impressive too, although rather noisy (loud squealing) on the final stop.

The 172 is the same, it was the way they implemented an EMU style service on the Snow Hill Lines without actually electrifying.

They were basically bought for the wrong reason - they should have been specced for direct 150 and 142 replacement rather than "Northern Connect", as per the similar 172s. Northern do now seem to be using them as such, to be fair, though if built for that I think a higher-density interior would have made more sense. This could have allowed for timetable improvements on the likes of the CLC and Atherton.