195s truly awful, not a step forward

[Whistler40145]

Personally, I've found 195s to be quite good and a considerable improvement from 142s, 150s etc

 

[SteveM70]

Personally, I've found 195s to be quite good and a considerable improvement from 142s, 150s etc

Of course they are, but given there’s been 35 years or so since the pacers and sprinters were built you’d expect that. I think the point is that they’re nowhere near as good as they could or should have been, possibly because they were specced down to a price

 

[Iskra]

Personally, I've found 195s to be quite good and a considerable improvement from 142s, 150s etc

Agreed, normal passengers seem to like them too.

 

[AM9]

Agreed, normal passengers seem to like them too.

The problem is that 'normal passengers' probably only see them as better than their worn out predecessors, so that takes account of 30+ years of design improvements and wear and tear. What is less likely to be compared is with other recent or new trains from other manufacturers. So comparing a 3 year old class 331 with a generally superior 15 year old class 350 might not result in the 331s being seen as that good.

 

[driverd]

The problem is that 'normal passengers' probably only see them as better than their worn out predecessors, so that takes account of 30+ years of design improvements and wear and tear. What is less likely to be compared is with other recent or new trains from other manufacturers. So comparing a 3 year old class 331 with a generally superior 15 year old class 350 might not result in the 331s being seen as that good.

Entirely disagree. Most passengers in Northern land also use Avanti/LNER/XC/TPE. There's route duplication on many corridors, unlike, say, South Eastern or Scotrail.

Most of my friends and family, who aren't spotters, are very complementary about the new trains. They generally notice the difference between the Civitys and 158s and prefer the former.

I entirely agree - a few niggles but generally an good unit.

 

[jamesst]

Entirely disagree. Most passengers in Northern land also use Avanti/LNER/XC/TPE. There's route duplication on many corridors, unlike, say, South Eastern or Scotrail.

Most of my friends and family, who aren't spotters, are very complementary about the new trains. They generally notice the difference between the Civitys and 158s and prefer the former.

I entirely agree - a few niggles but generally an good unit.

This exactly, it only seems to be people on here getting wound up over them as usual, I like them!

 

[Agent_Squash]

This exactly, it only seems to be people on here getting wound up over them as usual, I like them!

Indeed - not everyone wants seats so soft you feel like you're in space - people want clean, comfortable, modern trains which is what the 195s are.

The Cumbrian lines (Lakes/Furness) which have had 185s before have definitely seemed busier since they were introduced - not the sort of behaviour you'd see if they were a downgrade!

 

[AM9]

Entirely disagree. Most passengers in Northern land also use Avanti/LNER/XC/TPE. There's route duplication on many corridors, unlike, say, South Eastern or Scotrail.

Most of my friends and family, who aren't spotters, are very complementary about the new trains. They generally notice the difference between the Civitys and 158s and prefer the former.

I entirely agree - a few niggles but generally an good unit.

So Avanti, LNER, XC and TPE don't run trains that are much like the 195s but you have mentioned the 158s, which are at least 30 years old, so the 195 don't stand up very well against them.

Indeed - not everyone wants seats so soft you feel like you're in space - people want clean, comfortable, modern trains which is what the 195s are.

The Cumbrian lines (Lakes/Furness) which have had 185s before have definitely seemed busier since they were introduced - not the sort of behaviour you'd see if they were a downgrade!

I agree with your 1st sentence except citing the 195s are examples. Down here there are quite a few new trains (i.e. less than 10 years old), and most of them leave the 195 behind in ride comfort (which is the single most damning aspect of their performance).

This exactly, it only seems to be people on here getting wound up over them as usual, I like them!

Not sure who you are rferring to here but I've travelled on 195s, 331s and 397s, all have the same poor ride characteristics, but it doesn't wind me up at all as most of my journeys down here are modest but far better riding than the dodgy bogie CAF types in the north.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I agree with your 1st sentence except citing the 195s are examples. Down here there are quite a few new trains (i.e. less than 10 years old), and most of them leave the 195 behind in ride comfort (which is the single most damning aspect of their performance).

Not everyone who uses trains actually feels every bit of the bogie movement in the same way an enthusiast does… I don’t feel like the 195s throw me around like you infer they do.

 

[Wolfie]

So Avanti, LNER, XC and TPE don't run trains that are much like the 195s but you have mentioned the 158s, which are at least 30 years old, so the 195 don't stand up very well against them.


I agree with your 1st sentence except citing the 195s are examples. Down here there are quite a few new trains (i.e. less than 10 years old), and most of them leave the 195 behind in ride comfort (which is the single most damning aspect of their performance).


Not sure who you are rferring to here but I've travelled on 195s, 331s and 397s, all have the same poor ride characteristics, but it doesn't wind me up at all as most of my journeys down here are modest but far better riding than the dodgy bogie CAF types in the north.

Personally l would have said that the 185s operated by TPE are quite like the 195s and l prefer the former.

 

[driverd]

So Avanti, LNER, XC and TPE don't run trains that are much like the 195s but you have mentioned the 158s, which are at least 30 years old, so the 195 don't stand up very well against them.

Not entirely sure you understood my post. The reply I made was to another user, who stated that most northern customers are only comparing Civity units to 14x/15x units. I was making the point that, due to route duplication, most general public compare with various other operators. Usually the Civity units receive good feedback in comparison.

I mentioned the 158s as I was stating that quite often the public will even notice the difference to the very similar (internally) northern 158. Generally the Civity units are still prefered.

 

[modernrail]

So Avanti, LNER, XC and TPE don't run trains that are much like the 195s but you have mentioned the 158s, which are at least 30 years old, so the 195 don't stand up very well against them.


I agree with your 1st sentence except citing the 195s are examples. Down here there are quite a few new trains (i.e. less than 10 years old), and most of them leave the 195 behind in ride comfort (which is the single most damning aspect of their performance).


Not sure who you are rferring to here but I've travelled on 195s, 331s and 397s, all have the same poor ride characteristics, but it doesn't wind me up at all as most of my journeys down here are modest but far better riding than the dodgy bogie CAF types in the north.

I can’t believe the state Northern let their 158s get into. Other operators kept them in decent condition, refurbished as appropriate. Northern let their deteriorate into a shocking state.

Still, I think I prefer a well kept 158s to a 195. I am not CAF bashing as I have always loved the 333s and I work in Spain quite a bit and like their units over there. There is just something about the 195s I can’t get on with. The aesthetics of the design leave something to be desired. Not as nice as the 333s even though much newer. The interior is a mess but that is Northerns fault. But I think there is also something mechanical and I can’t get it out of my head that the top bit doesn’t belong on the bottom bit. The bottom bit feels too flimsy for the top bit.

Of course, that is super ironic, because that was exactly the fundamental problem with the bloody pacers.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I can’t believe the state Northern let their 158s get into. Other operators kept them in decent condition, refurbished as appropriate. Northern let their deteriorate into a shocking state.

I think this is one of the problems. Take two identical units, one from Northern and one from any other TOC, and the former will always be a shed in comparison. The "best" example being with a GWR 150.

Northern's rolling stock is very much unloved by its owner.

 

[AM9]

I can’t believe the state Northern let their 158s get into. Other operators kept them in decent condition, refurbished as appropriate. Northern let their deteriorate into a shocking state.

Still, I think I prefer a well kept 158s to a 195. I am not CAF bashing as I have always loved the 333s and I work in Spain quite a bit and like their units over there. There is just something about the 195s I can’t get on with. The aesthetics of the design leave something to be desired. Not as nice as the 333s even though much newer. The interior is a mess but that is Northerns fault. But I think there is also something mechanical and I can’t get it out of my head that the top bit doesn’t belong on the bottom bit. The bottom bit feels too flimsy for the top bit.

Of course, that is super ironic, because that was exactly the fundamental problem with the bloody pacers.

I have been careful to specifically only criticise the latest type of CAF trains, all of which have a similar design of internal frame lightweight bogie. I 'be never travelled on a 333 but have been on quite a few 332s (Heathrow Express). They were ok, but ISTR that they had suspension problems a few years ago.
I don't accept that non-enthusiast passengers don't feel the ride problems, - they just don't know what they are and just think of it as part of a bright shiny new package.

 

[skyhigh]

I think this is one of the problems. Take two identical units, one from Northern and one from any other TOC, and the former will always be a shed in comparison. The "best" example being with a GWR 150.

Northern's rolling stock is very much unloved by its owner.

I mostly disagree with that. The stock did get into a bit of a mess towards the end of Serco/under Arriva but currently they are doing the best they can with it, within the constraints they have. Replacement of flat cloth with moquette (yes, should have had that to start with but if they didn't care they wouldn't change it). Installation of new CCTV and USB charging on all the 15x and 333s.

DfT said no to new seats on 150s - partly because of the fascination they had with seat numbers and partly due to cost.

 

[modernrail]

I mostly disagree with that. The stock did get into a bit of a mess towards the end of Serco/under Arriva but currently they are doing the best they can with it, within the constraints they have. Replacement of flat cloth with moquette (yes, should have had that to start with but if they didn't care they wouldn't change it). Installation of new CCTV and USB charging on all the 15x and 333s.

DfT said no to new seats on 150s - partly because of the fascination they had with seat numbers and partly due to cost.

Sorry but I just can’t get along with that statement. As well as basic lack of investment there has been a shocking lack of care from Northern for a long time now. The trains have been a complete mess since the day I started commuting on them into Leeds to the day I now travel from Wigan to Southport to see the folks.

I am currently sat on a soon to be withdrawn 455 which the southerners complain tends to be dirty. It is absolutely sparkling compared to 99% of northern trains I have ever travelled on.

Let’s see how fast the 195s go downhill inside. The last train I caught was refurbished, filthy and smelly and the USB port did not work and so unless there is a fundamental change in attitude in northern train care standards, it doesn’t look good.

I mean look at this seat cover. I dream of sitting on a northern seat cover like that. When I was a lad northern would smear coal on t’seat cover from corner to corner and we would sit on it and we thought we were royalty.

 

[Mikey C]

I've only been on the 331, but was really disappointed by the ride quality between Preston and Blackpool North which was notably, and alarmingly jolty.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think this is one of the problems. Take two identical units, one from Northern and one from any other TOC, and the former will always be a shed in comparison. The "best" example being with a GWR 150.

Northern's rolling stock is very much unloved by its owner.

I'd rather be on a Northern 158 (even a 2-car one with ironing boards) than the horrible EMR examples with appalling legroom.

 

[setdown]

I mostly disagree with that. The stock did get into a bit of a mess towards the end of Serco/under Arriva but currently they are doing the best they can with it, within the constraints they have. Replacement of flat cloth with moquette (yes, should have had that to start with but if they didn't care they wouldn't change it). Installation of new CCTV and USB charging on all the 15x and 333s.

DfT said no to new seats on 150s - partly because of the fascination they had with seat numbers and partly due to cost.

I travelled on 150102 last week, and it was a disgrace. There wasn't litter, but it was filthy, ground in dirt everywhere. The floor and panels looked like they hadn't been cleaned in months. A 150 wouldn't be bad if it was looked after, but I was shocked just how poor it was.

 

[D6130]

Sorry but I just can’t get along with that statement. As well as basic lack of investment there has been a shocking lack of care from Northern for a long time now. The trains have been a complete mess since the day I started commuting on them into Leeds to the day I now travel from Wigan to Southport to see the folks.

I am currently sat on a soon to be withdrawn 455 which the southerners complain tends to be dirty. It is absolutely sparkling compared to 99% of northern trains I have ever travelled on.

Let’s see how fast the 195s go downhill inside. The last train I caught was refurbished, filthy and smelly and the USB port did not work and so unless there is a fundamental change in attitude in northern train care standards, it doesn’t look good.

I mean look at this seat cover. I dream of sitting on a northern seat cover like that. When I was a lad northern would smear coal on t’seat cover from corner to corner and we would sit on it and we thought we were royalty.

Unfortunately I think that a lot of the cleanliness problems with Northern units are caused by the people who travel on them. If you are ever on a train out of Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool/Blackpool/York/Hull/Newcastle/Sheffield, etc. on a Friday or Saturday night, you will witness some apocalyptic scenes of drinking, spilling, urinating, defecating, projectile vomiting, feet on seats after walking through the aforementioned substances, etc, etc. I'm not just talking about young people here....all too often the culprits are middle-aged couples, or groups of middle-aged men or women out 'on the lash'. The TransPennine Lager Trail - formerly known as the TransPennine Ale Trail - is a particular problem and has now over-spilled onto the Calder Valley Line, with Hebden Bridge becoming a popular destination for these binge drinking gangs of both genders. It would take an extremely thorough and very expensive cleaning regime to deal with the aftermath of this sort of behaviour.

 

[DustyBin]

Unfortunately I think that a lot of the cleanliness problems with Northern units are caused by the people who travel on them. If you are ever on a train out of Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool/Blackpool/York/Hull/Newcastle/Sheffield, etc. on a Friday or Saturday night, you will witness some apocalyptic scenes of drinking, spilling, urinating, defecating, projectile vomiting, feet on seats after walking through the aforementioned substances, etc, etc. I'm not just talking about young people here....all too often the culprits are middle-aged couples, or groups of middle-aged men or women out 'on the lash'. The TransPennine Lager Trail - formerly known as the TransPennine Ale Trail - is a particular problem and has now over-spilled onto the Calder Valley Line, with Hebden Bridge becoming a popular destination for these binge drinking gangs of both genders. It would take an extremely thorough and very expensive cleaning regime to deal with the aftermath of this sort of behaviour.

Whilst clearly the above isn't intended to be humorous, the "apocalyptic scenes of drinking" line got me, probably due to it being true!

 

[Bletchleyite]

My impression of lack of cleanliness on some TOCs (I find Merseyrail "stands out" more than Northern here) isn't this sort of "catastrophic" borderline-vandalism, but rather lazy grubbiness due to a lack of expected basic cleaning of seats and dusting, e.g. air vents full of filth and dust on windowsills. There isn't really any excuse here. Travelodge are similar - they hoover the floor but they don't bother actually properly cleaning things.

 

[dp707]

Well I started a furore here didn’t. I still maintain they aren’t a patch on 158s, solidity and ride wise etc.
Regarding the confusing door controls, one problem is there is a door out of use alarm (between the open and close buttons) which seems to be on when pulling into stations. I’ve seen passengers panicking thinking they won’t be able to disembark and rushing to find other doors, myself included....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I started a furore here didn’t. I still maintain they aren’t a patch on 158s, solidity and ride wise etc.

They're really competent 150 replacements. They aren't great long distance units, the 158 (bar the useless aircon) is better at that.

Regarding the confusing door controls, one problem is there is a door out of use alarm (between the open and close buttons) which seems to be on when pulling into stations. I’ve seen passengers panicking thinking they won’t be able to disembark and rushing to find other doors, myself included....

Yes, that's a very poor piece of design on the SDO. If I was Northern I'd stick a bit of plastic over it before it confuses anyone else.

 

[Matt_pool]

Unfortunately I think that a lot of the cleanliness problems with Northern units are caused by the people who travel on them. If you are ever on a train out of Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool/Blackpool/York/Hull/Newcastle/Sheffield, etc. on a Friday or Saturday night, you will witness some apocalyptic scenes of drinking, spilling, urinating, defecating, projectile vomiting, feet on seats after walking through the aforementioned substances, etc, etc. I'm not just talking about young people here....all too often the culprits are middle-aged couples, or groups of middle-aged men or women out 'on the lash'. The TransPennine Lager Trail - formerly known as the TransPennine Ale Trail - is a particular problem and has now over-spilled onto the Calder Valley Line, with Hebden Bridge becoming a popular destination for these binge drinking gangs of both genders. It would take an extremely thorough and very expensive cleaning regime to deal with the aftermath of this sort of behaviour.

I'm I'm ever in Liverpool city centre on a Friday or Saturday evening after 7pm I avoid getting the train home to south Liverpool, which for me would involve going from Lime Street on the line to Man Oxford Road.

Fortunately I live close to two bus routes which, even until late into the night, are a lot more civilised, and cleaner, then getting the train home.

The train I get into Lime Street in the morning Monday to Friday is 9 times out of 10 a 3 carriage 195. This morning it was 195117 which, along with the annoying announcements every 10 seconds, was making a horrible noise from the air conditioning in the roof. But it wasn't as bad as some of the other 195's I've been on where it's sounded like a bogey is going to fall off!

 

[Bikeman78]

Well I started a furore here didn’t. I still maintain they aren’t a patch on 158s, solidity and ride wise etc.
Regarding the confusing door controls, one problem is there is a door out of use alarm (between the open and close buttons) which seems to be on when pulling into stations. I’ve seen passengers panicking thinking they won’t be able to disembark and rushing to find other doors, myself included....

Yes I've fallen for that too. All the doors are shown out of use until the guard unlocks them. Given the often lengthy pause between train stopping and doors unlocking, it frequently causes people to flap. Has anyone raised this problem with Northern?

The 700s make an announcement, also shown on the displays, prior to arrival to tell people which carriages won't unlock. An example of an announcement that is actually useful, especially as it only goes off in the affected carriages.

 

[skyhigh]

Has anyone raised this problem with Northern?

It's on the list of things for CAF.

The 700s make an announcement, also shown on the displays, prior to arrival to tell people which carriages won't unlock. An example of an announcement that is actually useful, especially as it only goes off in the affected carriages.

This is exactly what 195s and 331s do. Announcements and visual messages only in the affected vehicle when doors are locked out by ASDO.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

My impression of lack of cleanliness on some TOCs (I find Merseyrail "stands out" more than Northern here) isn't this sort of "catastrophic" borderline-vandalism, but rather lazy grubbiness due to a lack of expected basic cleaning of seats and dusting, e.g. air vents full of filth and dust on windowsills. There isn't really any excuse here. Travelodge are similar - they hoover the floor but they don't bother actually properly cleaning things.

Getting back to 195s one of the reasons why they're often overflowing with rubbish is that the bins in them are tiny and extremely difficult to find. You could barely fit a couple of empty cans in them so no wonder the Saturday night drinkers just leave their cans and bottles on the seats and tables!

 

[Bikeman78]

It's on the list of things for CAF.

This is exactly what 195s and 331s do. Announcements and visual messages only in the affected vehicle when doors are locked out by ASDO.

Oh fair enough. I've not been on a 195 that has stopped at a short platform so I've not seen that in action.

 

[BeccaOnATrain]

I quite like travelling on them. However I've already noticed a fair few loose seats, broken plug sockets and been on trains where the aircon isn't working/turned on..

Also been on a few where the tannoy announcements don't actually say the stop.. just the "We will be calling at *silence* and *silence*".