195s truly awful, not a step forward

[Bletchleyite]

It's dry clean only.

Frequent dry cleaning, then. My point is that it could look good, it just doesn't due to lack of care.

 

[Ben Anslow]

195113 is the first unit to be re-trimmed into moquette seating rather than flat cloth, with more to follow. A very smart refresh to the seats.

Any pictures?

 

[AM9]

It's dry clean only.

Flat cloth and moquette cost about the same.

Then that would be an even more stupid decision.

 

[Furton]

Does anyone know why the single seat next to the driver cab is usually taped off at the moment? Most units are like this.

 

[MrS99]

Does anyone know why the single seat next to the driver cab is usually taped off at the moment? Most units are like this.

Just means conductors aren't obstructed entering and leaving their back cab.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Regarding seats on 195s - are the seat coverings being changed in a mass programme? The one I’m on right now seems to have a moquette now rather than the cloth.

 

[CJ]

Regarding seats on 195s - are the seat coverings being changed in a mass programme? The one I’m on right now seems to have a moquette now rather than the cloth.

That's right, they are all being replaced now with the moquette seat coverings.

 

[Leeds1970]

I was looking forward to my first ride onboard a class 195, on boarding it was bright and airy however the seat was a bit on the hard side and the ride quality a little rough, I was also surprised by the engine. Given the advances in train construction / insulation and engines the noise was no quieter than a 150-158 series dmu. I boarded the unit with high expectations but alighted very underwhelmed.

 

[js1000]

Regarding seats on 195s - are the seat coverings being changed in a mass programme? The one I’m on right now seems to have a moquette now rather than the cloth.

They're changing the seat coverings on the 195/331s already?!?

 

[Ribbleman]

Yes. Northern in it’s Arriva incarnation rather ill-advisedly chose a flat cloth for both the new stock and refurbished seats in the ex-BR units. Many seats soon sported rather disgusting looking brown stains. One can only hope that it was spilled coffee, though one wonders how many passengers could be so careless. Finding that the stains were apparently difficult to remove without dry cleaning, Northern changed the seat covering to moquette. Probably just as stain ridden but it doesn’t show as easily. The 331s and 195s were already in course of delivery when the change was decided upon. Therefore, after most of the older stock has been changed, usually at the same time as general refurbishment and PRM upgrades, the CAF unit seats are now gradually being re-covered. An expensive mistake one wouid imagine.
It has to be said that if the 195s and 331s did not ride so badly, maybe there would not have been so many coffee spillages!

 

[Mikey C]

Yes. Northern in it’s Arriva incarnation rather ill-advisedly chose a flat cloth for both the new stock and refurbished seats in the ex-BR units. Many seats soon sported rather disgusting looking brown stains. One can only hope that it was spilled coffee, though one wonders how many passengers could be so careless. Finding that the stains were apparently difficult to remove without dry cleaning, Northern changed the seat covering to moquette. Probably just as stain ridden but it doesn’t show as easily. The 331s and 195s were already in course of delivery when the change was decided upon. Therefore, after most of the older stock has been changed, usually at the same time as general refurbishment and PRM upgrades, the CAF unit seats are now gradually being re-covered. An expensive mistake one wouid imagine.
It has to be said that if the 195s and 331s did not ride so badly, maybe there would not have been so many coffee spillages!

Maybe the juddery ride and shaking about caused a few passengers to get really frightened

 

[skyhigh]

Therefore, after most of the older stock has been changed, usually at the same time as general refurbishment and PRM upgrades, the CAF unit seats are now gradually being re-covered. An expensive mistake one wouid imagine.

Only the older stock with original seats have been done so far. The 158s with ironing board seats will be getting the replacement moquette once the 195s then 331s are done.

(The 333s were the first refurbs that went straight to moquette over flat cloth.)

 

[Envoy]

If the seats are dirty, then I want to see the ‘dirt’ - not have it camouflaged.

 

[AM9]

If the seats are dirty, then I want to see the ‘dirt’ - not have it camouflaged.

Decent moquette not only allows dirt to be easily brushed off,p (even unintentionally by normal use) but also remaining dirt settles at the bottom of the pile pending regular cleaning. Flat fabric carries all the detritus that passengers leave on the same surface that the next user sits on. If you prefer that then you must be in a minority.

 

[RailWonderer]

Decent moquette not only allows dirt to be easily brushed off,p (even unintentionally by normal use) but also remaining dirt settles at the bottom of the pile pending regular cleaning. Flat fabric carries all the detritus that passengers leave on the same surface that the next user sits on. If you prefer that then you must be in a minority.

What he means is he would pick a different seat if he could see the dirt on the seat he would otherwise have sat in, if it have been camouflaged. In reality I understand the railway cannot be constantly dry cleaning passengers mess, but closer attention to cleanliness could do on some of Northern's stock.

 

[AM9]

What he means is he would pick a different seat if he could see the dirt on the seat he would otherwise have sat in, if it have been camouflaged.

Assuming there were any seats that were unoccupied and clean!

 

[js1000]

Yes. Northern in it’s Arriva incarnation rather ill-advisedly chose a flat cloth for both the new stock and refurbished seats in the ex-BR units. Many seats soon sported rather disgusting looking brown stains. One can only hope that it was spilled coffee, though one wonders how many passengers could be so careless. Finding that the stains were apparently difficult to remove without dry cleaning, Northern changed the seat covering to moquette. Probably just as stain ridden but it doesn’t show as easily. The 331s and 195s were already in course of delivery when the change was decided upon. Therefore, after most of the older stock has been changed, usually at the same time as general refurbishment and PRM upgrades, the CAF unit seats are now gradually being re-covered. An expensive mistake one wouid imagine.
It has to be said that if the 195s and 331s did not ride so badly, maybe there would not have been so many coffee spillages!

Okay thanks. I must admit I was surprised back in 2018 when Northern started rolling out the cloth fabric covers on the older BR units. Within months they became dirty with mud, coffee etc.

The cloth seating covers on 195/331s seem to get treated with a little more respect so surprised they are changing them already.

 

[jonnyfan]

Okay thanks. I must admit I was surprised back in 2018 when Northern started rolling out the cloth fabric covers on the older BR units. Within months they became dirty with mud, coffee etc.

The cloth seating covers on 195/331s seem to get treated with a little more respect so surprised they are changing them already.

The 195/331s have survived that bit longer in an ok state, but there are some units with seats now in a shocking state so it's really needing to be done now. I suppose it makes sense to get them all done in one go, gives a consistent standard across the fleet.

 

[Jozhua]

I've generally been really impressed with the new units. I can see where people are coming from when they say the ride is "hard" and yes - you do notice the joints a bit more, but ultimately you are running on rails, so the ride is never that bad!

Acceleration is fantastic on both 195s and especially 331s. 331s are a very noticeable step up from the previous 319s in terms of having air con, better seating options, nicer bathrooms, bigger doors and generally more capacity.

158s are good units, but the 195s are much better for loading/unloading - getting around a 158 can often be a bit of a process, especially on those busy platforms such as through Castlefield. 195s are much easier in terms of luggage/accessibility.

150s/156s have nothing on these units. If you think otherwise, you are looking through nostalgia tinted glasses!

Seeing the slow motion disaster that is Turbostars on Midlands regional services, I would absolutely be happy to swap with Northern's 195s!

The 195’s are better than leaky, draughty pacers with no legroom or tables or 150’s with no legroom, poor views and poor seating layouts.

Yeah, I think it's worth looking at what they are actually replacing...

While they might be off in regards to some of the recent deliveries if you compare to what was running on the same jobs before its a 100% step up.

The Manchester to Sheffield stopper for example was a 142. Now its a 3 car airconditioned modern unit with all the bells and whistles.

Yeah, even an improvement on other sprinters.

They're a nice attempt. Table seats is a definite improvement on the bus seat pacers of yore.

The mistake was building so many 2 carriage ones.

The main aim of the recent spate of rolling stock acquisitions in the North should have been to expand capacity beyond the 2 carriage railway that has held the North back for so long. Unless it multiplies, a 195 won't do that.

Oh absolutely, two carriage units are just not up to scratch.

While doubling up may be an option, may be more cost and space efficient to just purchase more intermediate coaches. The MIA - Windermere service should almost certainly be four in summer!

As a regular user Leeds to Sheffield in 19/20, the 195 was a step down from a 158 that hadn't had its cushions or seatback tables torn out, particularly as neither the guards or drivers worked out the doors or brakes properly yet. However they would not make me go and stand in the aisle of a Voyager like a 150 would.

During the heat waves of 2018 and 2019 the 150s were actually better than a 158 for having windows rather than bad air con, but with the chance a standee would faint onto you whilst your knees banged into the person sat across. I still don't know how the 195s deal with heat since I stopped commuting before they'd seen summer service.

The air con on 195s/331s is very good. I guess if you're on the railways in the height of Spanish summer, AC is not something you can afford to get wrong!

I was looking forward to my first ride onboard a class 195, on boarding it was bright and airy however the seat was a bit on the hard side and the ride quality a little rough, I was also surprised by the engine. Given the advances in train construction / insulation and engines the noise was no quieter than a 150-158 series dmu. I boarded the unit with high expectations but alighted very underwhelmed.

Noise insulation unfortunately is going to hit a limit where you are constrained by mass/cost/space. 195s have much quieter engines than the marine diesels on 150s and 158s and I would say still significantly quieter.

Remember too, it isn't just about the amount of sound, but the quality of it. While the 150s are a deafening roar, the 195s are more of a background hum. Ultimately though, you are never going to have quiet unless you ditch farting engines altogether, or move it to a separate locomotive. Some noise is okay though, as it can help block out the sound of other passengers.

 

[mbonwick]

195s have much quieter engines than the marine diesels on 150s and 158s and I would say still significantly quieter.

Definitely not marine diesels under 15x! The Cummins NT855 is (was) more commonly found in trucks (mostly in the good old USA) and the Perkins units in some 158s were more at home in various tractors.
The noise all comes down to how the engines are run; 15x use a fluid coupling so the engines immediately run up to governed RPM and stay there. 195s have a hydro-mechanical transmission (more often found in buses, trucks etc and just like you find in modern automatic cars), with multiple gears so engine RPMs are matched to required torque and are generally lower.

 

[DustyBin]

Definitely not marine diesels under 15x! The Cummins NT855 is (was) more commonly found in trucks (mostly in the good old USA) and the Perkins units in some 158s were more at home in various tractors.
The noise all comes down to how the engines are run; 15x use a fluid coupling so the engines immediately run up to governed RPM and stay there. 195s have a hydro-mechanical transmission (more often found in buses, trucks etc and just like you find in modern automatic cars), with multiple gears so engine RPMs are matched to required torque and are generally lower.

The 195s are too bus-like for me when it comes to mechanical sounds, I far prefer the raucousness of a sprinter!

Other than the bus noises and slightly poor ride I don’t think there’s much wrong with the 195s to be honest, they’re adequate if somewhat unremarkable.

 

[Mikey C]

I find it quite weird when trains have hydro-mechanical gearboxes, and you can audibly hear the gears being changed. It makes the 172s sound very different from the other Turbostars

 

[DustyBin]

I find it quite weird when trains have hydro-mechanical gearboxes, and you can audibly hear the gears being changed. It makes the 172s sound very different from the other Turbostars

It’s actually quite similar to the majority of first generation DMUs so things have gone full circle in a way. I know what you mean though.

 

[NewClee153]

I boarded my first 195 a couple of weeks ago, if their remit was “be better than pacers” then great, but they’re awful in comparison to any other northern stock, apart from the class 150s, but there’s not a lot in it.

The build quality leaves so much to be desired, as it’s been mentioned, it feels like they’ve been rushed out to replace the pacers. The ride quality is among the worst I’ve ever experienced, and I’m not even being hyperbolic.

They have absolutely no character like some of the older northern stock, it’s hard to find any redeeming features if I’m being honest

 

[Grumpy Git]

As I've said before, anyone who thinks a 195 is worse than a 14x, 15x (with the possible exclusion of a 158) needs their bumps feeling.

 

[AM9]

As I've said before, anyone who thinks a 195 is worse than a 14x, 15x (with the possible exclusion of a 158) needs their bumps feeling.

I think the sentiment of many here is that the 195s are nowhere as good as they should be given that they have the benefit of over 35 years of progress in rail engineering. They have little to show over Turbostars made 25 years ago.

 

[driverd]

I boarded my first 195 a couple of weeks ago, if their remit was “be better than pacers” then great, but they’re awful in comparison to any other northern stock, apart from the class 150s, but there’s not a lot in it.

Aside from being quieter, cleaner, far more capable of staying at a sensible temperature, brighter, more accessible and with a much better PIS.

The build quality leaves so much to be desired, as it’s been mentioned, it feels like they’ve been rushed out to replace the pacers. The ride quality is among the worst I’ve ever experienced, and I’m not even being hyperbolic.

Pray tell what build quality issues you've noticed? Ride quality is about the same as any new build unit, were splitting hairs really if we compare to 700s, 172s etc.

They have absolutely no character like some of the older northern stock, it’s hard to find any redeeming features if I’m being honest

Fair enough. Entirely a personal opinion but I think they have much more character than 745/755s.

I think the sentiment of many here is that the 195s are nowhere as good as they should be given that they have the benefit of over 35 years of progress in rail engineering. They have little to show over Turbostars made 25 years ago.

Sentiment it may be but nowhere near an accurate representation. To name but a few points:
1. Circa 10 tons lighter
2. Acceleration performance that leaves a 170 standing
3. Braking performance leagues beyond a 170
4. Numerous new safety systems implemented (ASDO, ERTMS, GPS augmentation)
5. TCMS and computer interface with various train to shore reporting capabilities
6. PIS with realtime feed
7. Generally more intuitive for train crew (based on dwell times)
8. Better implementation of customer safety systems (PASCOM etc)
9. Lower fuel consumption
10. Substantially improved PRM provisions

And those are just the ones that come to mind. To suggest the units are less than leagues beyond the rest of the northern fleet is simply nonesense. Sure, the rides a little firm and the seats might not be the ones you'd pick, but looking beyond the only two criteria enthusiasts ever seem to judge a train on, the differences are so vast that the two fleets could be decades apart (oh, wait...)

 

[thejuggler]

I was looking forward to my first ride onboard a class 195, on boarding it was bright and airy however the seat was a bit on the hard side and the ride quality a little rough, I was also surprised by the engine. Given the advances in train construction / insulation and engines the noise was no quieter than a 150-158 series dmu. I boarded the unit with high expectations but alighted very underwhelmed.

The only way to mitigate this is to sit at the cab ends.

 

[AM9]

Aside from being quieter, cleaner, far more capable of staying at a sensible temperature, brighter, more accessible and with a much better PIS.



Pray tell what build quality issues you've noticed? Ride quality is about the same as any new build unit, were splitting hairs really if we compare to 700s, 172s etc.



Fair enough. Entirely a personal opinion but I think they have much more character than 745/755s.



Sentiment it may be but nowhere near an accurate representation. To name but a few points:
1. Circa 10 tons lighter
2. Acceleration performance that leaves a 170 standing
3. Braking performance leagues beyond a 170
4. Numerous new safety systems implemented (ASDO, ERTMS, GPS augmentation)
5. TCMS and computer interface with various train to shore reporting capabilities
6. PIS with realtime feed
7. Generally more intuitive for train crew (based on dwell times)
8. Better implementation of customer safety systems (PASCOM etc)
9. Lower fuel consumption
10. Substantially improved PRM provisions

And those are just the ones that come to mind. To suggest the units are less than leagues beyond the rest of the northern fleet is simply nonesense. Sure, the rides a little firm and the seats might not be the ones you'd pick, but looking beyond the only two criteria enthusiasts ever seem to judge a train on, the differences are so vast that the two fleets could be decades apart (oh, wait...)

Every one of those points is not unique to 195s or even any Civity models. They are just typical of modern stock, but... They have poor riding qualities compared with their contemporaries (e.g. Desiro Citys and Aventras) and even older stock e.g. Desiro UKs, Voyagers/Meridians, and even some Turbo/Electrostars. Add to that the inadequate robustness of the bogie-Body interface, which they haven't even got right on the 331s, - it's a pretty poor show for what is a basic requirement. The performance is just what a bigger engine gives, and any train with MAN 390KW engines under every car will give better performance than the 315KW on the 170s or 360KW prime power units used on the 172s.
The bottom line is that they are poor performers from a passenger pov. Obviously passengers on the services that were previously run with Pacers or 150s will think they are a marvellous improvement, but compared with new trains deployed elsewhere from other manufacturers, they are shabby and disappointing to put it mildly.

 

[driverd]

Every one of those points is not unique to 195s or even any Civity models. They are just typical of modern stock, but... They have poor riding qualities compared with their contemporaries (e.g. Desiro Citys and Aventras) and even older stock e.g. Desiro UKs, Voyagers/Meridians, and even some Turbo/Electrostars. Add to that the inadequate robustness of the bogie-Body interface, which they haven't even got right on the 331s, - it's a pretty poor show for what is a basic requirement. The performance is just what a bigger engine gives, and any train with MAN 390KW engines under every car will give better performance than the 315KW on the 170s or 360KW prime power units used on the 172s.
The bottom line is that they are poor performers from a passenger pov. Obviously passengers on the services that were previously run with Pacers or 150s will think they are a marvellous improvement, but compared with new trains deployed elsewhere from other manufacturers, they are shabby and disappointing to put it mildly.

Fair to compare them to their contemporaries, but I was specifically responding to your comments regarding the turbostars - but even if you transplanted the engines, the extra weight you're lugging around on the 170s would be a massive hindrance.

It's fair to say that this is all compromise. If you want a good ride, you'll have to gain some mass to bulk up the bogie. This in turn hits performance and track access charges. I also think they're broadly comparable with 700s in terms of ride quality (the best comparison would be 331s over mainline sections, let's not forget the vast majority of northerns network is secondary branch lines and is poorer/older track work than many other places) - I really think people overplay the ride, it's not smooth but it's not noticeably worse than most over internal frame bogied MUs.

Take this in perspective. Northern needed a new DMU and EMU fleet at a time when the only manufacture who could meet that requirement was CAF. Of course, there was a budget to consider and given the level of subsidy received for rail in the North (and compromises that required, eg: choice of seat), all things considered, I think they delivered a superb unit. I'd personally take one over a 185 any day.