195s truly awful, not a step forward

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of passenger comfort over anything other than perfect, plain track, the 195s lag behind 1950s designed DMUs, such as 110s and 120s. I suggest that more appropriate yardsticks than Pacers by which they may be judged are bogied stock such as 170s and 185s. It is not too much to expect at least a similar standard of ride to something that was introduced 20 years ago. The folly of ordering a fleet of units without the experience gained by constructing and testing a prototype has been exposed. Those who look forward to the arrival of Classes 196 and 197 are in for something of a disappointment.

158s are really the benchmark for near-perfect ride, I'd say. I've only known one class that betters it, the extremely heavy 221. 170s I've always found a bit jittery and sort of feeling like the body flexes as it goes over rail joints.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The ride on the 195's is the x equivalent of the y on the class 304's.

 

[37424]

I doubt anyone would say a 195 wasn't a perfectly acceptable 142/150 replacement and vastly better than either of those - it's just that it was sold as a 158/185/170 substitute for longer distance runs, and it's arguably inferior to all of those, give or take the aircon (though the 158 isn't suitable for the WCML runs as it's only 90mph).

Use it on what it's good for - local stopping services around Manchester and Leeds - and it's excellent. It'd be nice to see them on Athertons and Warrington stoppers to really gain from the superb EMU-like performance, particularly if the 175s end up coming in and so would substitute on the Barrow/Windermere as 100mph units (which is what those were originally built for). The standbacks also make it a real "people eater" - almost as good as the 700 despite the wider seats.

I certainly don't think they are overall inferior to 158's, and given some of the muted Pacer replacements like the 40 year old converted tube trains they ok as far as I'm concerned.

 

[DustyBin]

158s are really the benchmark for near-perfect ride, I'd say. I've only known one class that betters it, the extremely heavy 221. 170s I've always found a bit jittery and sort of feeling like the body flexes as it goes over rail joints.

The 158s are excellent, as are the 465s/466s. It’s interesting that these late BR-era units ride so well, perhaps a lot of knowledge built up over decades of development was subsequently lost?

 

[AM9]

The 158s are excellent, as are the 465s/466s. It’s interesting that these late BR-era units ride so well, perhaps a lot of knowledge built up over decades of development was subsequently lost?

Plus the fact that they weren't designed down to a low price. They may have had less comfort 'features' by current standards, but all trains should be judged against their contemporaries. So the Civitys are up against the 350 Mk3s & 4s, the 387s, the Aventras and the Desiro City's, all of which are generally accepted as 'less flawed'.

 

[Phlip]

I didn't suggest Calder Valley for 170s, but they would be suitable for Leeds to Nottingham. Are they even route-cleared via Bradford Interchange anyway? I know they are cleared via Brighouse as TPE ran them that way, but the current Wigan services on that route are too stop-start for 170s much like the rest of the Calder Valley services including the Blackpools.

Not sure there are many routes besides the Nottinghams that would be ideal for 170s, mind!

How about... Urm, Hull - Sheffield!

 

[py_megapixel]

I second the sentiment from earlier that they do really need to stop the "Door out of service" text appearing at every station.

I guess the system treats a door locked out because the SDO system hasn't decided to release it the same as one isolated due to a fault. It could presumably be fixed fairly easily in software.

 

[guard1]

158s are really the benchmark for near-perfect ride, I'd say. I've only known one class that betters it, the extremely heavy 221. 170s I've always found a bit jittery and sort of feeling like the body flexes as it goes over rail joints.

158's are also a joy to drive (although the cab's are a little bit on the small side)

 

[Bikeman78]

This train was designed by box ticking without much thought of the passegner experience - it was well known that Northern held consultations then blatently ignored the feedback i.e. when focus groups strongly disliked the seats and alternatives were available.

Was that the consultation that Ian Walmsley often mentions? Seems bizarre to spend time and effort to have people test seats and then ignore the result. If you're going to go for the cheapest option anyway then just do it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was that the consultation that Ian Walmsley often mentions? Seems bizarre to spend time and effort to have people test seats and then ignore the result. If you're going to go for the cheapest option anyway then just do it.

The consultation did sort of influence what they did, in that they specified the contoured base ironing board instead of the flat one as a "hybrid" outcome.

 

[Llama]

158's are also a joy to drive (although the cab's are a little bit on the small side)

Agreed, I could carry on driving 158s until I retire and I'd be happy with that.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Agreed, I could carry on driving 158s until I retire and I'd be happy with that.

As a passenger (and in my limited experience), I'd say the 158 and 175 are by far the best DMUs of any current design in service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a passenger (and in my limited experience), I'd say the 158 and 175 are by far the best DMUs of any current design in service.

The 158 is great, just needs the aircon fully replacing and if necessary a better alternator to power it. Definitely one of BR's finest hours, and the aircon was indeed fine until CFCs had to cease being used - I remember stepping aboard one in the 90s was like stepping aboard a fridge.

The 175 I find a bit cheap and nasty, and has some big flaws, e.g. tiny overhead racks. Seats are of a good design and 10mph faster, but most of the rest of it is markedly inferior to the 158.

 

[Ben Anslow]

On notes of poor ride quality on 195’s 195105 has shockingly dangerous feel to it. Was throwing about side to side and clanging/banging all over the place. And swaying side to side more than normal. I’ve reported to northern no actions been taken so I’m taking it up to with the HSE for advice

 

[Llama]

Did you make your concerns known to the guard at the time, and where was this?

 

[Killingworth]

Let’s look at the typical units in Sheffield - Manchester Picc:

TPE 185
EMR 158 / 156
NOR 195 / 150

In order of preference and based primarily on customer experience, I’d take

TPE 185 (clear winner)
NOR 195 (primarily second because of the slower journey)
EMR 158 (grudgingly)
EMR 156
NOR 150 (last because of the 2+3 seating)

The 195 runs the 185 a good second and I’d take one over an older BR unit any day

As a user of Hope Valley services I'd agree withn those ratings, although a smart 158 is almost as good as a 195. That's if any of them turn up and that's an increasingly serious issue.

I've just witnessed passengers waiting at Dore for the 12.14 out of Sheffield (and people waiting to collect family off that train). 195002 had been 11 minutes late starting from Piccadilly and had arrived in Sheffield at 12.16. At 12.21 the CIS showed it arriving back at Dore at 12.21 - then delayed, then a succession of messages alternating between delayed and ever later times until showing it arriving at 12.51. In the meantime a Class 68 on driver training came out from Sheffield and went back and an EMR service ran through. The penny was beginning to drop when the next Northern 3 car 195 arrived inbound to Sheffield at 12.58. On it's return journey from Sheffield at 13.14 it doesn't stop at Dore!

Unless those waiting passengers had not got aboard to come back out again they would have been waiting 2 hours for the 14.21. There was no announcement to tell those waiting to take that train, but all did. The lady wanting to be at an important business meeting in Manchester was furious. It was a good move because 195002 was cancelled due to a problem with the traction equipment (MD).

So yes, I like the 195s when they work. But a clapped out rattling Pacer is better than a train that doesn't run. (From December 2022 the 13.14 should stop at Dore but that's no consolation today.)

 

[Geeves]

004 was detached from the Chester to Leeds at 1220 at Vic and run round via the chord to shunt into the main station at Picc to work the 1249, in the end the Sheffield stopper departed from 13 but I have no idea if the passengers ever made it over similar to those Dore passengers, if you were not paying attention youd be screwed.

On a happier note I found just riding anywhere away from the wheels on a 331 or 195 makes for sure a different journey.

 

[AgentGemini]

And WMR are itching to get their 196s out asap...apparently the Shrewsbury line will be the first.

 

[MP393]

195113 is the first unit to be re-trimmed into moquette seating rather than flat cloth, with more to follow. A very smart refresh to the seats.

 

[AM9]

195113 is the first unit to be re-trimmed into moquette seating rather than flat cloth, with more to follow. A very smart refresh to the seats.

That must be one of the shortest periods for a new train requiring a re-upholstering. Whoever thought they were saving money by not using moquette as has been the norm for decades?

 

[Neptune]

That must be one of the shortest periods for a new train requiring a re-upholstering. Whoever thought they were saving money by not using moquette as has been the norm for decades?

At least it’s being rectified. It would have been very easy to not bother changing them.

 

[Killingworth]

At least it’s being rectified. It would have been very easy to not bother changing them.

Whatever was being spilled over the original seats is better hidden on the moquette!

 

[Neptune]

Whatever was being spilled over the original seats is better hidden on the moquette!

True. Plus it looks better. I always felt the flat cloth looked a bit insipid.

 

[diligentdave]

On notes of poor ride quality on 195’s 195105 has shockingly dangerous feel to it. Was throwing about side to side and clanging/banging all over the place. And swaying side to side more than normal. I’ve reported to northern no actions been taken so I’m taking it up to with the HSE for advice

I've asked for this unit to be checked for rough riding when next at a depot.

 

[AM9]

At least it’s being rectified. It would have been very easy to not bother changing them.

That's not a defence for false economy. If Northern with all their subsidy (when these trains were specified) wants to plead poverty, they should have more experienced staff spending that scarce money on rolling stock. Railways in the UK have used moquette for it's durability and easy cleaning qualities for as long as I can remember, (mid '50s) as have many bus operators. Most other fabrics are not fit for purpose.
With such experience commonplace all across the transport industry, false economy is inexcusable.

 

[Mikey C]

That must be one of the shortest periods for a new train requiring a re-upholstering. Whoever thought they were saving money by not using moquette as has been the norm for decades?

Haven't the GWR 800s also had their seats re-upholstered soon after entry? It seems to have been a recent thing!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haven't the GWR 800s also had their seats re-upholstered soon after entry? It seems to have been a recent thing!

Yes, their flat cloth was even worse as it was grey, so showed up dirt *really* badly.

Flat cloth would require frequent laundering to work well.

 

[Neptune]

That's not a defence for false economy. If Northern with all their subsidy (when these trains were specified) wants to plead poverty, they should have more experienced staff spending that scarce money on rolling stock. Railways in the UK have used moquette for it's durability and easy cleaning qualities for as long as I can remember, (mid '50s) as have many bus operators. Most other fabrics are not fit for purpose.
With such experience commonplace all across the transport industry, false economy is inexcusable.

I’m not defending false economy (it was Arriva who specified them, not the current incumbent OLR remember).

I’m simply saying that the easiest thing to do would be to leave them as they are but they’re not. Rectifying an inherited issue is a positive step for me.

TPE’s flat cloth looks awfully grubby but they’re doing nothing about it.

 

[AM9]

I’m not defending false economy (it was Arriva who specified them, not the current incumbent OLR remember).

I referred to that in my comment "If Northern with all their subsidy (when these trains were specified) wants to plead poverty,". A few of ther upper management were probably chaged when Arriva left, but most of the employees would be TUPE'd and are probably still there under OLR.

 

[AMD]

Flat cloth would require frequent laundering to work well.

It's dry clean only.

Whoever thought they were saving money by not using moquette as has been the norm for decades?

Flat cloth and moquette cost about the same.