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378 extra coach

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Peter Sarf

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The 72 stock are 112m long (give or take) where a five car 378 is 100m so not sure where platform extensions are required.

However it was started somewhere DC lines were to see 5 cats temporarily. This makes sense as we ate several years away from new stock and stopping the production line or storing carriages for a couple of years makes no sense. Former especially as the final Electrostars will be completed in early 2017.

I had not thought of the existing tube services :oops:. Mind you I am surprised that a five car electrostar is getting on for the same length as a Bakerloo line train. But then it does seem a long walk to the front of the train at Victoria (so I am nearer to the East Croydon exit).
 
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bramling

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The 72 stock are 112m long (give or take) where a five car 378 is 100m so not sure where platform extensions are required.

However it was started somewhere DC lines were to see 5 cats temporarily. This makes sense as we ate several years away from new stock and stopping the production line or storing carriages for a couple of years makes no sense. Former especially as the final Electrostars will be completed in early 2017.

I'm sure Euston-Watford has seen 2x313 formations in the distant past, although not in recent years.

Has the Willesden Junction bay been extended for 5 cars? That's the only obvious one I can think of that could present an issue.
 

Nym

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Yes, Willesden Jcn is now 5 car on the LL Bay.

Even if WFJ - EUS via the DCs gets new stock (Fixed formation 6 car if we have any sense!) the NLL stock still needs to reverse at Willesden Jcn to access Willseden Depot from the NLL.
 

acmw421

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I am trying to remember the 501s were they 3 car. I remember they were like 4EPBs to ride in and look at but with no unit numbers.

501s were indeed 3 cars, but were on short (57ft) underframes rather than the long (64ft) underframes used on BR EPB stock.
 

WatcherZero

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Bombardier has won the LO order for 31 trains to replace 315 and 317, 14 extra bringing a total of 45 with options for more. Not confirmed but basically saying they will be four car 378's.
 

Peter Sarf

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38423 is currently on its way up to Wembley from Derby / Bescot, sandwiched between 66170, 66174 and some vans for brake force.

That was 28th May !. Doesn't time fly. So where are we up to now ?.

If I remember correctly 378135-378154 (the DC East London line units) are all done. Must be wall beyond 378201-378223 by now as that was over a month ago ?.
Progress must have been made beyond 378224 but perhaps not up to 378234. The last three I guess will be 378255-378257.
 
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Peter Sarf

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38423 is currently on its way up to Wembley from Derby / Bescot, sandwiched between 66170, 66174 and some vans for brake force.

That was 28 May 2015.

I had spare time today and so I travelled from Croydon on the ELL via Highbury onto the NLL and spent some time at Willesden Junction and then more time at Clapham Junction watching the Windsor lines fall apart and platform ten heave.

I saw almost all of 378135-154. All those I saw were 5 car and I believe all have been 5-car for a long while.

Out of 378201-222 all I saw (which was most of them) were 5-car.

But there were no 5-car 378s in the range from 378223-234 & 255-257 that I saw and I saw almost all of them.

On the North London line there was a mix of 4 and 5 car 378s. I saw no five car 378s on the Euston-Watford services which was less of a surprise.

So 378323 is still four car despite its fifth car coming South on 28th May !. I can believe it did and I would expect there to be five car 378s up to about 378330 by now.

So what is going on ?. Or am I being too optimistic.

Willesden depot did look to still be in the middle of alterations btw.
 
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87015

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There is a nice selection of extra cars at New Cross Gate awaiting insertion. As I understand it however as the new stabling facilities on the NLL are not yet in use there is a restriction in the amount of 5 cars it is possible to have operating purely as there is nowhere to put them at night. So it could well be 'on pause' at the moment.
 

Peter Sarf

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There is a nice selection of extra cars at New Cross Gate awaiting insertion. As I understand it however as the new stabling facilities on the NLL are not yet in use there is a restriction in the amount of 5 cars it is possible to have operating purely as there is nowhere to put them at night. So it could well be 'on pause' at the moment.

Never thought I would see the day when nice new rolling stock was lying unused waiting for infrastructure !. That won't happen often ;).
 

D365

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Never thought I would see the day when nice new rolling stock was lying unused waiting for infrastructure !. That won't happen often ;).

There certainly isn't much optimism regarding the GWML electrification...
 

swt_passenger

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There is a nice selection of extra cars at New Cross Gate awaiting insertion. As I understand it however as the new stabling facilities on the NLL are not yet in use there is a restriction in the amount of 5 cars it is possible to have operating purely as there is nowhere to put them at night. So it could well be 'on pause' at the moment.

The problem is with the new Wembley sidings that are delayed, (they aren't quite ON the NLL), but they've found an alternative overnight stabling location for the longer 5 car NLL/WLL/DC trains, apparently somewhere nearer Euston, perhaps it's where LM stable during the day/offpeak?
 

Taunton

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501s were indeed 3 cars, but were on short (57ft) underframes rather than the long (64ft) underframes used on BR EPB stock.
Just joining this late, but the predecessors of the 501s, compartment EMUs built by the LMS in the late 1920s, although basically 3-car units and run in two-unit formations, had about 10 additional trailers built in the early 1930s to enable some 7-car formations to run. The platforms must have been long enough to accommodate them.
 

33056

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Currently at Wembley, having arrived from Derby earlier (23/07):
38031
38231
38331
38431
38131
Presume this is 378 231 as a five-car unit (I'm not that well up with coach numbers / unit formations :oops:).
 

evergreenadam

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More new coaches arrived at Wembley this morning:
38428
38429
38430
38432
There is a schedule for them to go to New Cross Gate tonight see here but don't blame me if it doesn't run for some reason!

How many 4 car units are left to be extended?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The problem is with the new Wembley sidings that are delayed, (they aren't quite ON the NLL), but they've found an alternative overnight stabling location for the longer 5 car NLL/WLL/DC trains, apparently somewhere nearer Euston, perhaps it's where LM stable during the day/offpeak?


Details of works at Wembley to allow introduction of further 5 car trains were included on page 7 of the Commissioner's report to the TfL Board on 4th November.

London Overground sidings
We have commissioned new sidings near
Wembley that can berth 12 of LO’s five-car
trains. The sidings are equipped for daily
service, with a new control room and driver
facilities, a new track layout, electrification,
walkways and a new train wash.
Innovative signalling technology enables
trains to enter and exit the sidings from the
West Coast mainline. We can now convert
more five-car trains and introduce them on
the North London Line to provide greater
capacity for our customers. Service from the
sidings is due to start in November
 

33056

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What is the "innovative signalling technology"?
Don't think that it is particularly innovative but I believe it is a system that is used a lot on the continent for tram and light rail systems. Some reading can be found here and a PDF file here . Trying to get it to interface with 1990s British Rail SSI had its moments!

BTW, although the sidings are useable they won't be brought into full use until the December TT change, road learning and other training is currently taking place.
 

33056

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Bumper delivery today (03/12), 38433 / 434 / 455 and 38456 / 457, times from Bescot are here and departing Wembley at 23:23 on 03/12 (times for the latter don't appear to be in RTT yet)
 

87015

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Probably worth saying that 5-cars have been on the DC for a while now, two diagrams yesterday I think.
 

jopsuk

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Will the DC going back to 4-car when the Class 710 are delivered be a capacity problem or are people rather rattling around inside 5-car services?
 

swt_passenger

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Will the DC going back to 4-car when the Class 710 are delivered be a capacity problem or are people rather rattling around inside 5-car services?

Yes. That is explicitly stated in a TfL board paper, it is intended to allow those 6 x 5 car 378s to increase peak service frequencies on the NLL and ELL.
Edited for brevity only.
3.2 The LOTRAIN Project comprises [...] 45 new electric multiple units to support the following London Overground Programmes:
(a) Gospel Oak – Barking Capacity Increase (eight, four car trains);
(b) West Anglia Route (Devolution) Programme including Romford-Upminster, (31 x four car trains); and
(c) London Overground Frequency Increase Programme, which enhances the current eight trains per hour (tph) on the North London Line (NLL) to 10 tph and increased service resilience on the East London Line (ELL) (six, four car trains)...
{then explained later in the paper}
3.6 By putting new trains {i.e. what we now know as the 710s} on the Euston – Watford line the existing Class 378 trains on that route can, in five car formation, be cascaded onto the NLL and ELL to provide a larger and homogenous Class 378 5 car fleet to deliver the planned tph increases.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/fpc-20150617-item16-part-1-lotrain.pdf

There is however a subsequent paper somewhere that plans to increase the frequency of the DC line service as well. Don't know if stock has ever been ordered for that though.
 
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D365

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There is however a subsequent paper somewhere that plans to increase the frequency of the DC line service as well. Don't know if stock has ever been ordered for that though.

Provisions have been made for additional carriages as part of the Class 710 order. These could go towards strengthening the Willesden-based fleet, or to additional units for frequency enhancement.
 

D365

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Is that more new build or just the already publicised TfL plan to transfer the 6 x 5 car units from the DC lines onto the NLL and ELL?

Bearing in mind that there are prices quoted for additional carriages to be added to the Class 710 order, of which I don't imagine all will be soaked up on the West Anglia routes.
 

jopsuk

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It's already confirmed nthat there's six sets (with the same interiors as the GOBLIN ones- more longitudinal seating) for Watford, to, as said, move the 378s onto the NLL. Presumably the Barking Riverside extension requires an extra u it or two as well
 
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