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3tph on North Downs Line

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Minstral25

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Surely North Downs is likely to be a Battery solution eventually to replace 769's but only after the Third Rail bits get their power upgraded to allow charging on the move. Hopefully along with Uckfield and Marshlink to get an economy of scale for the Battery implementation.
 
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Bald Rick

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Surely North Downs is likely to be a Battery solution eventually to replace 769's but only after the Third Rail bits get their power upgraded to allow charging on the move.

Almost certainly. May not need a power upgrade, as the existing power system is not really stretched.
 

Minstral25

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Almost certainly. May not need a power upgrade, as the existing power system is not really stretched.

Good and I assume your knowledge is better than mine. However isn't Reigate to Redhill a weak link, heard 769's can't run on third rail on that section (or to Gatwick) or does it mean P3 at Reigate with associated power upgrades will happen.
 

JN114

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I’m not certain the power supply is up to it - the power supply on all 3 DC stretches isn’t taxed, but it is reportedly only sufficient for what is currently running, plus planned expansions from existing DC operators (eg 4tph Reading on SWR).

Rapid charging off 3rd Rail is likely to be quite power intensive; and only practical at the termini - one of which is on the heavily used already Brighton Main Line, the other at the end of a long, single-end-feed section for only a handful of electric trains.

Besides, we don’t need bionic duckweed. The route should be properly electrified. It would be remiss for all the benefits of 3tph to go to waste because you need to charge the train up for an hour at each end to have enough juice to power itself up and over the hills to/from Gatwick. There hasn’t been a battery train installation like it in the UK; and I’m not sure it’s at all suitable, other than in the eyes of penny pinchers who refuse to acknowledge the railway needs extensive capital investment.
 

Bald Rick

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Good and I assume your knowledge is better than mine. However isn't Reigate to Redhill a weak link, heard 769's can't run on third rail on that section (or to Gatwick) or does it mean P3 at Reigate with associated power upgrades will happen.

Of the four electrified sections, IIRC:

Reading - Wokingham is specified to deal with 4 x 12 car trains each way an hour. If the uplift to 4 happens - which I very much doubt - then it is possible there needs to be some strengthening. If it doesn’t, then battery trains will be fine all day. They’ll be fine off peak regardless.

Aldershot South to Shalford Jn via Guildford - plenty spare, except perhaps in the Guildford station area.

Reigate - Redhill. Even if it’s a weak point (and I don’t know), there is electrical capacity for a 4 car service each way, which is all that could possibly operate.

Redhill - Gatwick. May need strengthening, but I struggle to believe that an extra two four cars in section at any one time could tip the line over the edge when there are routinely 10 x 12 car trains in the section concurrently without issue.

I’m not certain the power supply is up to it - the power supply on all 3 DC stretches isn’t taxed, but it is reportedly only sufficient for what is currently running, plus planned expansions from existing DC operators (eg 4tph Reading on SWR).

Rapid charging off 3rd Rail is likely to be quite power intensive; and only practical at the termini - one of which is on the heavily used already Brighton Main Line, the other at the end of a long, single-end-feed section for only a handful of electric trains.

Besides, we don’t need bionic duckweed. The route should be properly electrified. It would be remiss for all the benefits of 3tph to go to waste because you need to charge the train up for an hour at each end to have enough juice to power itself up and over the hills to/from Gatwick. There hasn’t been a battery train installation like it in the UK; and I’m not sure it’s at all suitable, other than in the eyes of penny pinchers who refuse to acknowledge the railway needs extensive capital investment.

Charging off the third rail won’t be ‘rapid’ as such, it would be limited to the same current draw as any unit under power. What it will be, though, is drawing full power for much longer, ie rather than ‘notching back’ when reaching top speed or coasting, it will still be drawing full amps. There’s a possibility that it could still draw power whilst concurrently braking regeneratively.

However, and this is the trump on the table, if extra power capacity (substations etc) is needed for battery trains to draw full power at any of the existing electrification on the North Downs as mentioned above, you also need that same power capacity on the same sections to deal with non-battery electric trains drawing full power. (It’s not quite that simple, but it will do for here).

And then you also need to electrify the bits in between, with all the substations etc that they need too.
 

Aictos

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I don't use the route so bear with me but with the talk of 3tph and if battery EMUs were available vice the 769s, why not extend the Tonbridge to Redhill service to Reading and have that as the fast service and have two stopping services a hour between Reading and Redhill vice Gatwick Airport (extending to the airport off peak) which would help reduce conflicting moves in Redhill, make the service more reliable and reduce diesel running over 3rd rail yes I knows it's not much but every little helps.

Failing that, is it not possible to have a simple 3tph leaving every 20 minutes on a clock face timetable calling all stations?

I like to see 3tph on the North Downs but equally I'm interested in how it can be made more reliable?
 

Bald Rick

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I don't use the route so bear with me but with the talk of 3tph and if battery EMUs were available vice the 769s, why not extend the Tonbridge to Redhill service to Reading and have that as the fast service and have two stopping services a hour between Reading and Redhill vice Gatwick Airport (extending to the airport off peak) which would help reduce conflicting moves in Redhill, make the service more reliable and reduce diesel running over 3rd rail yes I knows it's not much but every little helps.

Failing that, is it not possible to have a simple 3tph leaving every 20 minutes on a clock face timetable calling all stations?

I like to see 3tph on the North Downs but equally I'm interested in how it can be made more reliable?

The key requirement is a direct link to Gatwick, and quick journey times from Dorking / Guildford / Reading. Some of the local stations are very sparsely populated. I know, as I used to live by one - in the middle of nowhere!
 

infobleep

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The key requirement is a direct link to Gatwick, and quick journey times from Dorking / Guildford / Reading. Some of the local stations are very sparsely populated. I know, as I used to live by one - in the middle of nowhere!
I agree the key link is a fast train to Gatwick Airport but I would say that I change trains there to head south, when such direct trains are running, at a time that suits me, that is.
 

Minstral25

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The key requirement is a direct link to Gatwick, and quick journey times from Dorking / Guildford / Reading. Some of the local stations are very sparsely populated. I know, as I used to live by one - in the middle of nowhere!

Agree that the main Reading to Gatwick service via Redhill should continue. I'd like to see it extended to Brighton to give the Redhill route a regular service back to the coast again without having to change at the awful Gatwick Airport Station. Unlikely to happen as the train is short.

On the Reading to Redhill local service it could be combined with the Tonbridge train. However potentially better is to split it. The Reading to Guildford part is apparently very busy so could be hived off as a half hourly local service. Then create a separate Woking to Tonbridge hourly local train with Peak extras, especially as County Hall for Surrey has moved to Reigate and a lot of staff are based in Woking and Guildford currently. Unlikely to happen either.
 

zwk500

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Agree that the main Reading to Gatwick service via Redhill should continue. I'd like to see it extended to Brighton to give the Redhill route a regular service back to the coast again without having to change at the awful Gatwick Airport Station. Unlikely to happen as the train is short.
It's not worth extending to Brighton as the capacity over Balcombe 2-track could be far better used by, say, a Brighton-Victoria semi-fast via Redhill.
On the Reading to Redhill local service it could be combined with the Tonbridge train. However potentially better is to split it. The Reading to Guildford part is apparently very busy so could be hived off as a half hourly local service. Then create a separate Woking to Tonbridge hourly local train with Peak extras, especially as County Hall for Surrey has moved to Reigate and a lot of staff are based in Woking and Guildford currently. Unlikely to happen either.
The draw is Gatwick. Sending trains from Reigate to Godstone is not going to help anybody, not least because the crossing moves across the junction will snaffle capacity. Redhill itself is a very restrictive layout and there aren't many options for fixing it.
 

JonathanH

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It's not worth extending to Brighton as the capacity over Balcombe 2-track could be far better used by, say, a Brighton-Victoria semi-fast via Redhill.
No, it wouldn't. What network benefits are served by a Brighton to Victoria semi-fast via Redhill that aren't better served by Brighton to Reading via Redhill?

We are told that a train running via Redhill is really difficult to path because it has to cross the main line twice and has to fit in a path before and after a Quarry line service.

Brighton and stations to Gatwick Airport already have a fast service to East Croydon and London Victoria. They don't want to travel via Redhill.

Redhill passengers may welcome a fast service to Victoria but not if it arrives packed at Redhill.

Brighton to Reading via the North Downs line as a development of the 3tph timetable has much better network benefits. Moreover, it would make access to Reigate, Dorking and Guildford for passengers from Sussex stations.
 

Peregrine 4903

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No, it wouldn't. What network benefits are served by a Brighton to Victoria semi-fast via Redhill?

We are told that a train running via Redhill is really difficult to path because it has to cross the main line twice and has to fit in a path before and after a Quarry line service.

Brighton and stations to Gatwick Airport already have a fast service to East Croydon and London Victoria. They don't want to travel via Redhill.

Redhill passengers may welcome a fast service to Victoria but not if it arrives packed at Redhill.

Brighton to Reading via the North Downs line as a development of the 3tph timetable has much better network benefits. Moreover, it would make access to Reigate, Dorking and Guildford for passengers from Sussex stations.
A 3 or 4 coach train has much worse benefits. And why would the train be full at Redhill, considering its faster by the quarry line, its likely a quarry line Brighton service would have overtaken the semi fast at Redhill depending on how its pathed.

Also this Brighton to Reading service would be such a huge performance risk, the southern part of the BML is not exactly known for being reliable, and you would be importing even more delays into Guildford and Wessex from Sussex.
 

zwk500

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No, it wouldn't. What network benefits are served by a Brighton to Victoria semi-fast via Redhill that aren't better served by Brighton to Reading via Redhill?

We are told that a train running via Redhill is really difficult to path because it has to cross the main line twice and has to fit in a path before and after a Quarry line service.
Just for the record, reversing services at Redhill are more difficult than through services, due to all such services having to use the single lead into platforms 0-2.
Brighton and stations to Gatwick Airport already have a fast service to East Croydon and London Victoria. They don't want to travel via Redhill.
I didn't say a Brigton-Vic via Redhill was a wonderful idea, just better than extending trains from Reading to the coast.
Redhill passengers may welcome a fast service to Victoria but not if it arrives packed at Redhill.
It won't arrive packed at Redhill, for the very reason you outlined in your previous point
Brighton to Reading via the North Downs line as a development of the 3tph timetable has much better network benefits. Moreover, it would make access to Reigate, Dorking and Guildford for passengers from Sussex stations.
Nobody from Haywards Heath or Brighton (or Eastbourne/Hove) has any particular interest in going to Reigate, Dorking and Guildford unless it's for a specific purpose such as an appointment or meeting. In which case 1 change is hardly an issue, or they'll drive regardless. People from Reigate, Dorking and Guildford may be vaguely interested in going to Brighton on the odd bank holiday but during the week I suspect journey numbers would hover in the single digits.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Just for the record, reversing services at Redhill are more difficult than through services, due to all such services having to use the single lead into platforms 0-2.

I didn't say a Brigton-Vic via Redhill was a wonderful idea, just better than extending trains from Reading to the coast.

It won't arrive packed at Redhill, for the very reason you outlined in your previous point

Nobody from Haywards Heath or Brighton (or Eastbourne/Hove) has any particular interest in going to Reigate, Dorking and Guildford unless it's for a specific purpose such as an appointment or meeting. In which case 1 change is hardly an issue, or they'll drive regardless. People from Reigate, Dorking and Guildford may be vaguely interested in going to Brighton on the odd bank holiday but during the week I suspect journey numbers would hover in the single digits.
Getting services to reverse at Redhill can be a bit of a nightmare.
 

JonathanH

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A 3 or 4 coach train has much worse benefits.
Let's forget about length of train for the moment...

And why would the train be full at Redhill, considering its faster by the quarry line, its likely a quarry line Brighton service would have overtaken the semi fast at Redhill depending on how its pathed.
...because if it isn't full, what is the point of running a longer train from Victoria to Brighton via Redhill. Again, what is the network benefit of a Victoria to Brighton semi-fast via Redhill at any station other than Redhill?

[There was a specific problem with Arun Valley trains arriving full at Redhill but I appreciate that they didn't have a choice. There hasn't been a Brighton to Victoria via Redhill semi-fast since 2003 for good reason although the pre-2018 southbound morning peak service on the Brighton line was a more intelligent use of rolling stock and stopping patterns than the current one if perhaps less reliable.]

Also this Brighton to Reading service would be such a huge performance risk, the southern part of the BML is not exactly known for being reliable, and you would be importing even more delays into Guildford and Wessex from Sussex.
There is performance risk from running fast services via Redhill if they miss their path at Stoats Nest Junction and end up behind a stopping train.

I appreciate that the signalling on the North Downs line is atrocious, Guildford is a nuisance to pass through and North Downs line trains get messed around by stopping trains between Wokingham and Reading but hopefully one day that might be sorted out.

Nobody from Haywards Heath or Brighton (or Eastbourne/Hove) has any particular interest in going to Reigate, Dorking and Guildford unless it's for a specific purpose such as an appointment or meeting.
I work in Reigate. I have colleagues who live in Haywards Heath and Burgess Hill. There are people who struggle to commute from Redhill to Brighton. There is some demand. I suspect that Redhill and Reigate employers would like to be able to attract people from places on the Brighton main line who don't have to travel by car.

People from Reigate, Dorking and Guildford may be vaguely interested in going to Brighton on the odd bank holiday but during the week I suspect journey numbers would hover in the single digits.
There are major employers in Brighton as well.

I appreciate that no service from Redhill to Brighton, whether from Victoria or Reading is going to happen anytime soon. I'm just supporting Mistral25's idea that it shouldn't be assumed that any future Redhill to Brighton service should automatically be planned on the basis of it coming from Victoria (or Thameslink).

If 3tph on the North Downs line were ever to be a success, it might make investment in the route a bit easier but I suspect it will be back to 1tph or 2tph for the forseeable future.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Let's forget about length of train for the moment...


...because if it isn't full, what is the point of running a longer train from Victoria to Brighton via Redhill. Again, what is the network benefit of a Victoria to Brighton semi-fast via Redhill at any station other than Redhill?


There is performance risk from running fast services via Redhill if they miss their path at Stoats Nest Junction and end up behind a stopping train.

I appreciate that the signalling on the North Downs line is atrocious, Guildford is a nuisance to pass through and North Downs line trains get messed around by stopping trains between Wokingham and Reading but hopefully one day that might be sorted out.


I work in Reigate. I have colleagues who live in Haywards Heath and Burgess Hill. There are people who struggle to commute from Redhill to Brighton. There is some demand. I suspect that Redhill and Reigate employers would like to be able to attract people from places on the Brighton main line who don't have to travel by car.


There are major employers in Brighton as well.

I appreciate that no service from Redhill to Brighton, whether from Victoria or Reading is going to happen anytime soon. I'm just supporting Mistral25's idea that it shouldn't be assumed that any future Redhill to Brighton service should automatically be planned on the basis of it coming from Victoria (or Thameslink)
To be fair I was also never suggesting running a Victoria - Brighton via Redhill. Just its a better idea than a Reading - Brighton. Yes there is a performance risk there, but a much more manageable one that doesn't involve importing delays into other routes and regions.

And the entire BML is built on minimum headway so is a performance risk in and of itself. Its just getting more intertwined with other regions and routes is not a good idea, more for the sake of their performance. Its already intertwined with LNE and Kent massively, becoming more intertwined with Wessex, would become too risky in my view, even if its just the extension of an existing service. And the poor headway on the North Downs Line means recovering from delays for a Reading - Brighton service would extremely difficult.
 

infobleep

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It's not worth extending to Brighton as the capacity over Balcombe 2-track could be far better used by, say, a Brighton-Victoria semi-fast via Redhill.

The draw is Gatwick. Sending trains from Reigate to Godstone is not going to help anybody, not least because the crossing moves across the junction will snaffle capacity. Redhill itself is a very restrictive layout and there aren't many options for fixing it.
The draw is Gatwick Airport, save when there is any issue then the trains are terminated short at Redhill. Selfishly I could do with this not occurring. :lol:

I also can't see any semi-fast service to Victoira via Redhill either. Too many people don't want to go via Redhill.

It anyone wants to go to Brighton direct from Redhill though, there's a service on Sunday mornings at 7:13, which connects nicely off the Reading to Gatwick Airport train. I've used this in the past to reach Haywards Heath.

This evening I was able to board the 19:29 Gatwick Airport to Reading service. It was so nice to be able to board such a train. When you can't board it, you miss it. Only 3 people in my carriage though, which became 2 on route.

Just highlights now quiet these services are. Unless we see an upturn in passengers, I imagine 2 fast trains an hour won't be economical. Still thrrr is time yet. See what happens.
 

Minstral25

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Just for the record, reversing services at Redhill are more difficult than through services, due to all such services having to use the single lead into platforms 0-2.

I didn't say a Brigton-Vic via Redhill was a wonderful idea, just better than extending trains from Reading to the coast.

It won't arrive packed at Redhill, for the very reason you outlined in your previous point

Nobody from Haywards Heath or Brighton (or Eastbourne/Hove) has any particular interest in going to Reigate, Dorking and Guildford unless it's for a specific purpose such as an appointment or meeting. In which case 1 change is hardly an issue, or they'll drive regardless. People from Reigate, Dorking and Guildford may be vaguely interested in going to Brighton on the odd bank holiday but during the week I suspect journey numbers would hover in the single digits.

Currently the Tonbridge Service uses platforms 0 or 1 as there are no other available platforms to reverse a train in, the same platforms are used to reverse the Reading to Redhill local services. Thus same trains in same platform and exactly the same moves as today - easy to extend the stopper to Tonbridge

There is demand from Reigate and Redhill to Haywards Heath and Brighton, also from Guildford and Dorking, in fact Brighton is the fifth largest destination from Redhill by passengers from GTR's own figures (in May 2018 timetable consultation). There is also a reverse flow as Reigate has a lot of Insurance providers head offices and there is a large commute to Reigate as well (Redhill has a lot of Financial offices too). Edit: Also Reigate College

There is no question such a service extending the Reading to Gatwick's would be used but the harder problem is getting the willingness to do it.

My understanding is that there is only space for 4 slow line and 2 fast line service's per hour from London towards Redhill due to over capacity on the slow lines south of East Croydon. In the May 2018 timetable GTR wanted all Redhill services on the slows and had to squeeze one across from the fasts at Stoat's Nest to keep the 6 per hour pre May 2018.

However there is space south of Redhill and Gatwick to Brighton for an additional service, however the limitation is the platforms to turn the trains round at Brighton in my understanding. It is not the two tracks at Balcombe and now there is no splitting and joining at Haywards Heath I would guess this is even easier .



The draw is Gatwick Airport, save when there is any issue then the trains are terminated short at Redhill. Selfishly I could do with this not occurring. :lol:

I also can't see any semi-fast service to Victoira via Redhill either. Too many people don't want to go via Redhill.

It anyone wants to go to Brighton direct from Redhill though, there's a service on Sunday mornings at 7:13, which connects nicely off the Reading to Gatwick Airport train. I've used this in the past to reach Haywards Heath.

This evening I was able to board the 19:29 Gatwick Airport to Reading service. It was so nice to be able to board such a train. When you can't board it, you miss it. Only 3 people in my carriage though, which became 2 on route.

Just highlights now quiet these services are. Unless we see an upturn in passengers, I imagine 2 fast trains an hour won't be economical. Still thrrr is time yet. See what happens.

Having used the North Downs Services it is only at certain times the draw is Gatwick Airport itself, there is a large local usage and in the peaks it is often being used to get further south from North Downs stations plus both Reigate and Redhill.
 

zwk500

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Currently the Tonbridge Service uses platforms 0 or 1 as there are no other available platforms to reverse a train in, the same platforms are used to reverse the Reading to Redhill local services. Thus same trains in same platform and exactly the same moves as today - easy to extend the stopper to Tonbridge
Only easy if the paths match up - I'm willing to bet that they do not. And the Tonbridges crossing over causes no end of problems as it is. Making them linked to delays at Reading/Guildford is asking for trouble.
There is demand from Reigate and Redhill to Haywards Heath and Brighton, also from Guildford and Dorking, in fact Brighton is the fifth largest destination from Redhill by passengers from GTR's own figures (in May 2018 timetable consultation). There is also a reverse flow as Reigate has a lot of Insurance providers head offices and there is a large commute to Reigate as well (Redhill has a lot of Financial offices too). Edit: Also Reigate College

There is no question such a service extending the Reading to Gatwick's would be used but the harder problem is getting the willingness to do it.
There may be demand - is there enough for it to be a good use of the path south of Gatwick?
My understanding is that there is only space for 4 slow line and 2 fast line service's per hour from London towards Redhill due to over capacity on the slow lines south of East Croydon. In the May 2018 timetable GTR wanted all Redhill services on the slows and had to squeeze one across from the fasts at Stoat's Nest to keep the 6 per hour pre May 2018.
CARS/Windmill bridge remodelling could help this - it depends what gets built and how other services change.
However there is space south of Redhill and Gatwick to Brighton for an additional service, however the limitation is the platforms to turn the trains round at Brighton in my understanding. It is not the two tracks at Balcombe and now there is no splitting and joining at Haywards Heath I would guess this is even easier .
The 2-track at Balcombe absolutely is a problem because Newhaven freight is growing very quickly. The more passenger services you run over the viaduct the less room there is for freight.
Having used the North Downs Services it is only at certain times the draw is Gatwick Airport itself, there is a large local usage and in the peaks it is often being used to get further south from North Downs stations plus both Reigate and Redhill.
I have no local knowledge of this services usage so I'll take your word for it. But there's a world of difference between your usual train 'looking busy' and the numbers adding up to justify additional services.
 

KeithMcC

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As someone who lives on the North Downs Line, the service has been unreliable for years and we definitely get the feeling that if there is a shortage of trains or crew then this is the service that GWR cancel. Cutting trains short at Redhill is a great disincentive - I have personally gone for a late train home from Gatwick to find it cancelled to Redhill, but when the supposed alternative connection arrives on one side of the platform at Redhill the Reading train closes its doors and departs from the other side leaving a fair number of passengers waiting for an hour. The same thing happens at Guildford - not our train guv. don't wait for connections! This has resulted in many an over 60 minutes delay repay claim. As there are no GWR staff then organising taxis takes an age.
I sometimes have to work in Ashford and the connections between the 2 lines at Redhill are useless - the Tonbridge train waits at a signal for the Reading train to depart.
As it is 2 TOCs the fares are a disincentive as well with no ability to use any cheap offers - given the cost of a day return to Brighton using the car looks much cheaper.
 

infobleep

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As someone who lives on the North Downs Line, the service has been unreliable for years and we definitely get the feeling that if there is a shortage of trains or crew then this is the service that GWR cancel. Cutting trains short at Redhill is a great disincentive - I have personally gone for a late train home from Gatwick to find it cancelled to Redhill, but when the supposed alternative connection arrives on one side of the platform at Redhill the Reading train closes its doors and departs from the other side leaving a fair number of passengers waiting for an hour. The same thing happens at Guildford - not our train guv. don't wait for connections! This has resulted in many an over 60 minutes delay repay claim. As there are no GWR staff then organising taxis takes an age.
I sometimes have to work in Ashford and the connections between the 2 lines at Redhill are useless - the Tonbridge train waits at a signal for the Reading train to depart.
As it is 2 TOCs the fares are a disincentive as well with no ability to use any cheap offers - given the cost of a day return to Brighton using the car looks much cheaper.
Unfortunately as more people wish to travel from the south to London I doubt most will change.

I was once told at Gatwick Airport a tris. Would be held at Redhill but of course it wasn't. Sometimes I go for a walk to the nearby park to kill time at Redhill.

Now though I know of a fare rhat allows me to travel via Clapham Junction if the wait at Redhill is really long.
 

Minstral25

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Only easy if the paths match up - I'm willing to bet that they do not. And the Tonbridges crossing over causes no end of problems as it is. Making them linked to delays at Reading/Guildford is asking for trouble.

Timing is actually pretty good - as the Readings and Tonbridge's depart roughly at same time, the Reading arrive just 8 minutes earlier. It's just getting the Tonbridge arrival to sit an extra 15 minutes at Tonbridge and departing late. No problem on an hourly service.

Although to be fair if they were linked I guess it would be better to rearrange train times to fit. In any case as I said there are no extra trains crossing the mains at Redhill by linking the Services

There may be demand - is there enough for it to be a good use of the path south of Gatwick?

Well there is definitely demand in both directions and it is the only way to get a service South of Redhill to Brighton currently. Plus it brings in Guildford and Dorking with direct services to Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill and Brighton

CARS/Windmill bridge remodelling could help this - it depends what gets built and how other services change.

They did say it should, however the capacity problems are the junctions at South Croydon for East Grinstead/Uckfield & at Purley for Caterham/Tattenham lines. Neither of which CARS addresses.

Also what part of the 2030's or 2040's will CARS actually happen. Levelling up suggests a lot of Northern work done before Croydon in the south gets any cash

The 2-track at Balcombe absolutely is a problem because Newhaven freight is growing very quickly. The more passenger services you run over the viaduct the less room there is for freight.

Currently I believe 2 trains a day each way - I think a lot more will be needed before that becomes an issue

I have no local knowledge of this services usage so I'll take your word for it. But there's a world of difference between your usual train 'looking busy' and the numbers adding up to justify additional services.

I travel at different times so don't have a usual train and I have been a rail user long enough to know looking at one train isn't the complete knowledge. Although to be fair since last years lock down I have only been on two trains so my knowledge may not be up to date. However as far as Gatwick is concerned it is a draw but not the key one as local usage seems to be much higher than just Gatwick flows. However GTR also produced numbers for local usage at the time of the May 2018 timetable change to justify the changes to residents and Brighton was shown a major destination. It was the one flow they hadn't catered for.
 

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Timing is actually pretty good - as the Readings and Tonbridge's depart roughly at same time, the Reading arrive just 8 minutes earlier. It's just getting the Tonbridge arrival to sit an extra 15 minutes at Tonbridge and departing late. No problem on an hourly service.

Although to be fair if they were linked I guess it would be better to rearrange train times to fit. In any case as I said there are no extra trains crossing the mains at Redhill by linking the Services
Those times sound just far enough apart as to not link seamlessly - and platforms may not be available to allow them to just bodge it together at Redhill. There'd be no extra crossings, but now instead of being a start from origin the crossings would be having travelled through Guildford, allowing reactive delays.
Well there is definitely demand in both directions and it is the only way to get a service South of Redhill to Brighton currently. Plus it brings in Guildford and Dorking with direct services to Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill and Brighton
High enough demand to justify the allocation of a path ahead of Brighton-London? I can see an argument for extending the Gatwick to Three Bridges (although it would break the pattern), to allow a simpler change.
They did say it should, however the capacity problems are the junctions at South Croydon for East Grinstead/Uckfield & at Purley for Caterham/Tattenham lines. Neither of which CARS addresses.
CARS can address 2 big problems though: East Grinsteads waiting to cross to the Fast Lines at Selhurst blocking the slows at East Croydon, and Uckfields having to conflict with the Down Victoria Slow as they cross to the Up Sussex Fast. Also 8 platforms would make better flighting possible. However:
Also what part of the 2030's or 2040's will CARS actually happen. Levelling up suggests a lot of Northern work done before Croydon in the south gets any cash
This is a very open questions at the monent, although Levelling up the North won't affect the CARS work. The funding sources are rather differnet.
Currently I believe 2 trains a day each way - I think a lot more will be needed before that becomes an issue
Freight operators are actively asking NR to look for additional paths at the moment. And in order to have a standard hourly passenger pattern, you need to have a standard hourly freight path, (or none at all).
I travel at different times so don't have a usual train and I have been a rail user long enough to know looking at one train isn't the complete knowledge. Although to be fair since last years lock down I have only been on two trains so my knowledge may not be up to date. However as far as Gatwick is concerned it is a draw but not the key one as local usage seems to be much higher than just Gatwick flows. However GTR also produced numbers for local usage at the time of the May 2018 timetable change to justify the changes to residents and Brighton was shown a major destination. It was the one flow they hadn't catered for.
I'll take your word again on the Southern numbers, as I haven't ever seen any. Although I'd be interested to know how Redhill+Feeder traffic to/from Brighton compared with Sussex Coast to/from London traffic.
 

Minstral25

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Those times sound just far enough apart as to not link seamlessly - and platforms may not be available to allow them to just bodge it together at Redhill. There'd be no extra crossings, but now instead of being a start from origin the crossings would be having travelled through Guildford, allowing reactive delays.

If you look at the reliability, both the Reading Local Service as it has a long wait at Guildford to be passed now and the Tonbridge services are very good. Yes it does take a reactive delay across to Guildford but I think this is relatively minor.

High enough demand to justify the allocation of a path ahead of Brighton-London? I can see an argument for extending the Gatwick to Three Bridges (although it would break the pattern), to allow a simpler change.

Yes - as there are already plenty of services Brighton to London (normally 8 per hour currently reduced of course)

CARS can address 2 big problems though: East Grinsteads waiting to cross to the Fast Lines at Selhurst blocking the slows at East Croydon, and Uckfields having to conflict with the Down Victoria Slow as they cross to the Up Sussex Fast. Also 8 platforms would make better flighting possible. However:


This is a very open questions at the monent, although Levelling up the North won't affect the CARS work. The funding sources are rather differnet.

Agree it will help but the capacity issue for Redhill trains are the Slows from East Croydon to Purley which are not in scope of CARS. I hope you are correct on CARS as it will be of enormous benefit to many services through reliability

Freight operators are actively asking NR to look for additional paths at the moment. And in order to have a standard hourly passenger pattern, you need to have a standard hourly freight path, (or none at all).

Good

I'll take your word again on the Southern numbers, as I haven't ever seen any. Although I'd be interested to know how Redhill+Feeder traffic to/from Brighton compared with Sussex Coast to/from London traffic.

They were put up at a meeting in Reigate by GTR in 2016/7, I have photos somewhere but haven't been able to find them
 

zwk500

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If you look at the reliability, both the Reading Local Service as it has a long wait at Guildford to be passed now and the Tonbridge services are very good. Yes it does take a reactive delay across to Guildford but I think this is relatively minor.
NR would disagree with you. Transfer of delay is a major performance risk red flag.
Yes - as there are already plenty of services Brighton to London (normally 8 per hour currently reduced of course)
Sorry, I should have said Coast-London. There isn't, for example, a Seaford-London off-peak service. Which it has been crying out for, and would also give a direct service to the Dieppe Ferry. Granted Newhaven & Seaford aren't settlements the same size as Redhill and Guildford.
Agree it will help but the capacity issue for Redhill trains are the Slows from East Croydon to Purley which are not in scope of CARS. I hope you are correct on CARS as it will be of enormous benefit to many services through reliability
CARS is very much up in the air. Something probably will be built, but exactly what is not certain at all right now. I agree it doesn't help with Purley and South Croydon, although the issues at Purley tend to be more platfrom occupancy of 5/6 rather than paths on the slows and South Croydon could be managed differently with the reversible slow. Purley will probably be the next thing to look at fixing after East Croydon - money permitting.
They were put up at a meeting in Reigate by GTR in 2016/7, I have photos somewhere but haven't been able to find them
How many who might have commuted from Brighton in 2017 would work remotely now?
 

Minstral25

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NR would disagree with you. Transfer of delay is a major performance risk red flag.

Agree NR would flag it but they should not be stopping potential services just for that reason but review forward. Additionally for Redhill to Tonbridge adding to Reading trains the additional risk is from a very reliable railway - often hitting well over 90% reliability in normal circumstances.

Sorry, I should have said Coast-London. There isn't, for example, a Seaford-London off-peak service. Which it has been crying out for, and would also give a direct service to the Dieppe Ferry. Granted Newhaven & Seaford aren't settlements the same size as Redhill and Guildford.

As you said a lot less passengers likely to use it due to larger catchment along the North Downs

CARS is very much up in the air. Something probably will be built, but exactly what is not certain at all right now. I agree it doesn't help with Purley and South Croydon, although the issues at Purley tend to be more platfrom occupancy of 5/6 rather than paths on the slows and South Croydon could be managed differently with the reversible slow. Purley will probably be the next thing to look at fixing after East Croydon - money permitting.

A long time down the road probably. You are correct platform occupancy at Purley is a key constraint but it isn't planned to go away, so along with South Croydon it is unlikely any new paths through Redhill will be found. So it remains the best opportunity at Redhill to get a much needed service is to extend the North Downs.

How many who might have commuted from Brighton in 2017 would work remotely now?

Who knows but that we will find out in next few years. I suspect a lot more than some predict but Bald Rick did a great analysis of potential part time office working recently.

In any case this is getting away form current operations on North Downs and perhaps should be in a speculative thread
 

Deepgreen

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I don't use the route so bear with me but with the talk of 3tph and if battery EMUs were available vice the 769s, why not extend the Tonbridge to Redhill service to Reading and have that as the fast service and have two stopping services a hour between Reading and Redhill vice Gatwick Airport (extending to the airport off peak) which would help reduce conflicting moves in Redhill, make the service more reliable and reduce diesel running over 3rd rail yes I knows it's not much but every little helps.

Failing that, is it not possible to have a simple 3tph leaving every 20 minutes on a clock face timetable calling all stations?

I like to see 3tph on the North Downs but equally I'm interested in how it can be made more reliable?
On the last point; it can't, other than improving rolling stock avallability. It passes through node points (notably Guildford and Redhill) where the other services are accorded more importance, and therefore the NDL will always be treated as a secondary priority by planners and day-to-day operators.

As someone who lives on the North Downs Line, the service has been unreliable for years and we definitely get the feeling that if there is a shortage of trains or crew then this is the service that GWR cancel. Cutting trains short at Redhill is a great disincentive - I have personally gone for a late train home from Gatwick to find it cancelled to Redhill, but when the supposed alternative connection arrives on one side of the platform at Redhill the Reading train closes its doors and departs from the other side leaving a fair number of passengers waiting for an hour. The same thing happens at Guildford - not our train guv. don't wait for connections! This has resulted in many an over 60 minutes delay repay claim. As there are no GWR staff then organising taxis takes an age.
I sometimes have to work in Ashford and the connections between the 2 lines at Redhill are useless - the Tonbridge train waits at a signal for the Reading train to depart.
As it is 2 TOCs the fares are a disincentive as well with no ability to use any cheap offers - given the cost of a day return to Brighton using the car looks much cheaper.
Indeed, as a Betchworth resident I agree. Redhill is notorious for failing to permit even the tiniest delay to trains to permit (unadvertised) connections to be made, especially now that NDL trains stop stupidly far down the platforms from the stairs. Redhill is a Southern station and it's very obvious that they regard GW as an irritant in their operations. I no longer commute through Redhill, thank goodness, but it was a source of extreme stress when an hourly (or two hourly!) train was missed for the want of a minute or two. My morning journey used to feature cross-platform interchange at Redhill and it was normal for our NDL train to have arrived and the doors released exactly as the platform staff would close the adjacent Victoria train's doors - that train would then have a timetabled four minute stand outside East Croydon!
 
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DelW

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Over the years, the Home Cottage in Redhill (just up the hill from the back exit of the station) must have benefited quite a bit from my missed connections. What better way is there to spend a bit of your delay repay, than on a pint of Young's and a seat in the warm? Hopefully that'll be possible again eventually...
 
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