Apprenticeship Trainee Drivers

[SCDR_WMR]

My TOC, like most now it seems, have fully transitioned to all external trainees being classed as apprenticeships, internal is in progress.

Obviously they are doing this to get the government cash towards training costs (dubious imo), but I wondered if anyone here is currently on one of these apprenticeships and whether there are any real differences.

For instance, so you have any coursework to complete? If so, how much?
Also, are you allocated time within your work hours to complete this coursework?
Will the training plan be longer and include any extra modules?

My TOC is offering the same wage (training and PQ), are other TOCs the same?

Personally, if I was given the choice I would prefer not to be an on apprenticeship but I'm not sure I will get the choice!

 

[NorthernTech]

I keep reading negative posts regarding the move to apprenticeship over traineeship and I just don’t get it. Firstly, with the high level of competition for the positions I really think people should be lucky to get either option. Secondly, how many other jobs pay so much money to sit you in a classroom, give you a hotel room and meals, put through the training course for you to then go on to earn really good salaries?? For the companies to be able to do this why not be able to take some money from the government to be able to do so, and you’ll be paying plenty back to the government over your career anyway! The companies, I believe, pay into an apprenticeship levy so why should they not make use of it? Surely that is the point of paying in?? If you are asked to do a few extra tasks here and there to satisfy an apprenticeship, really, is that such a big issue?? You are being paid still after all? If it’s a problem you can always decide to do something else instead, there are loads of other railway jobs that may suit better. Baffles me that this is even a problem.

 

[the sniper]

My TOC, like most now it seems, have fully transitioned to all external trainees being classed as apprenticeships, internal is in progress.

I'm surprised there's anywhere that differentiates the between the two for this purpose.

I think you imagine there's more involved in the apprenticeship than there is. Particularly if you've already got Level 2 qualifications in Maths, English and IT, there isn't much involved in it at all. If you haven't, it should only be a few days extra work (within your hours), which isn't ideal, but shouldn't hurt anyone.

 

[SLee]

I’m just super grateful to be given the start date.

most students are paid 18k a year to be on an apprenticeship and I’ll be earning 58k, I couldn’t be more happy!

Also with Covid and this war which has and is effecting the cash flow of TOCS I’m happy to do what it takes to help the TOC get back a little extra cash, especially if it keeps me in a job.

 

[NorthernTech]

I’m just super grateful to be given the start date.

most students are paid 18k a year to be on an apprenticeship and I’ll be earning 58k, I couldn’t be more happy!

Also with Covid and this war which has and is effecting the cash flow of TOCS I’m happy to do what it takes to help the TOC get back a little extra cash, especially if it keeps me in a job.

Yeah, you landed one of, if not the best apprenticeship there! Very fortunate position to be in.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I'm surprised there's anywhere that differentiates the between the two for this purpose.

I think you imagine there's more involved in the apprenticeship than there is. Particularly if you've already got Level 2 qualifications in Maths, English and IT, there isn't much involved in it at all. If you haven't, it should only be a few days extra work (within your hours), which isn't ideal, but shouldn't hurt anyone.

That's why I'm asking if there are people here who are doing an apprenticeship.

My partner is doing one in a different industry and has to do plenty of paperwork and essays - my concern would be that the TOC would expect me to complete this in my own time as my partner does, which would therefore impact break between shifts.

If there isn't any coursework to be done then that's great.

I keep reading negative posts regarding the move to apprenticeship over traineeship and I just don’t get it. Firstly, with the high level of competition for the positions I really think people should be lucky to get either option. Secondly, how many other jobs pay so much money to sit you in a classroom, give you a hotel room and meals, put through the training course for you to then go on to earn really good salaries?? For the companies to be able to do this why not be able to take some money from the government to be able to do so, and you’ll be paying plenty back to the government over your career anyway! The companies, I believe, pay into an apprenticeship levy so why should they not make use of it? Surely that is the point of paying in?? If you are asked to do a few extra tasks here and there to satisfy an apprenticeship, really, is that such a big issue?? You are being paid still after all? If it’s a problem you can always decide to do something else instead, there are loads of other railway jobs that may suit better. Baffles me that this is even a problem.

Not all TOCs train far from the depot, my previous depot was across the road from the academy so no hotels or meals for me there!

My issue with it being an apprenticeship is that it doesn't really require the nvq or whatever the qualification is. I did an apprenticeship after leaving school in an industry that requires certification without which I couldn't do the job. A job which easily matches the salary on offer here.
This left me with qualifications that would help to get a relevant job, can't imagine what ever the qualification you obtain would actually help you get a driver job elsewhere.

 

[2857]

I'll keep it brief, over the 18 week course I have completed a workbook used for revision which can be utilised as apprenticeship evidence. It's been a very useful book to complete and if it didn't exist for the apprenticeship I understand that the previous system used worksheets instead. In any case it was no extra work as it complimented my revision.
You have several classroom sessions with an external training provider which is all within the timetable and does not impact on the course.
Finally two one hour reviews over the telephone, again all in works time and not a problem.
In my previous career I completed a file for a NVQ as part if my initial training and that was by far more work and no where near as well thought out as the Driver Apprenticeship.

 

[michael74]

I just don't get the negativity on these forums to the Apprenticeship scheme. Its a system that all employers (over a certain payroll threshold) have to pay into, by changing the Train Drivers course into an apprenticeship, they are getting their money back and the Driver gets a qualification, the trainee Driver is still employed on the same T&Cs, the levy has a surplus of monies built in so that smaller employers (like your local electricians or builders) who are unable to pay into the levy can draw on it to be able to employ an apprentice, its not a trick, its not a money making scheme and its not a money saving scheme, the people who benefit are the employees and most certainly a lot of people are getting into jobs and learning skills they would not have been able to do without the apprenticeship levy.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I'll keep it brief, over the 18 week course I have completed a workbook used for revision which can be utilised as apprenticeship evidence. It's been a very useful book to complete and if it didn't exist for the apprenticeship I understand that the previous system used worksheets instead. In any case it was no extra work as it complimented my revision.
You have several classroom sessions with an external training provider which is all within the timetable and does not impact on the course.
Finally two one hour reviews over the telephone, again all in works time and not a problem.
In my previous career I completed a file for a NVQ as part if my initial training and that was by far more work and no where near as well thought out as the Driver Apprenticeship.

Well that's very good to hear!

I just don't get the negativity on these forums to the Apprenticeship scheme. Its a system that all employers (over a certain payroll threshold) have to pay into, by changing the Train Drivers course into an apprenticeship, they are getting their money back and the Driver gets a qualification, the trainee Driver is still employed on the same T&Cs, the levy has a surplus of monies built in so that smaller employers (like your local electricians or builders) who are unable to pay into the levy can draw on it to be able to employ an apprentice, its not a trick, its not a money making scheme and its not a money saving scheme, the people who benefit are the employees and most certainly a lot of people are getting into jobs and learning skills they would not have been able to do without the apprenticeship levy.

As I clearly said, my concern was that I would not actually be getting anything useful from it, though 2857 has suggested that the workbook is actually useful during the classroom stage.

I'm not wanting to come across negative, it would be a why should I need to do more work for the same money as someone who joined 12 months prior when then weren't doing it as apprenticeships

 

[SLee]

Well that's very good to hear!


As I clearly said, my concern was that I would not actually be getting anything useful from it, though 2857 has suggested that the workbook is actually useful during the classroom stage.

I'm not wanting to come across negative, it would be a why should I need to do more work for the same money as someone who joined 12 months prior when then weren't doing it as apprenticeships

I think you are looking at it wrong.

Be grateful you have a 1 in a million chance.

So many on here apply for years and never get the chance you have. Be grateful.

I also wouldn’t take that attitude into training as it’s a heck of a lot to take on (not meaning that in a confrontational way)

 

[michael74]

Well that's very good to hear!


As I clearly said, my concern was that I would not actually be getting anything useful from it, though 2857 has suggested that the workbook is actually useful during the classroom stage.

I'm not wanting to come across negative, it would be a why should I need to do more work for the same money as someone who joined 12 months prior when then weren't doing it as apprenticeships

Apologies, my post wasn't aimed at you, it was a comment about some feelings toward the scheme that I have seen on a few threads recently.

But as @2857 says, the apprenticeship (all of them do) have Off The Job Learning hours (OTJ) built in so that you do not have to train outside of your core hours.

 

[NorthernTech]

Well that's very good to hear!


As I clearly said, my concern was that I would not actually be getting anything useful from it, though 2857 has suggested that the workbook is actually useful during the classroom stage.

I'm not wanting to come across negative, it would be a why should I need to do more work for the same money as someone who joined 12 months prior when then weren't doing it as apprenticeships

But the apprenticeship isn’t your choice unless for some strange reason you chose to decline a job because of it. It’s clearly been stated the reasons that the TOC/FOC‘s use this scheme and what you ‘get out of it’ is a train driver job, to get to that point you just do the course that is given to you and be grateful of it. Honestly, what is the problem? If anything an apprenticeship will mean that the courses have to be similar and to a given standard, better that than having some operators giving a good training course and finding you end up on one that is poor and leaves you not sufficiently trained. As for people starting earlier on different training course, well lots of people are working alongside others that had better/worse training and especially working with colleagues who are on better pensions. It’s life, but I don’t think that a few days or even weeks extra and worth sweating about when you are being paid so well at the end.

 

[tiptoptaff]

The problem is that it's not an apprenticeship. You're not gaining any meaningful qualifications. You're not getting anything you wouldn't have got from the traineeship. But the TOCs get some money that isn't being used for its intended purpose.

IIRC, about 6 years or so ago, Virgin Trains took on a few Driver Apprentices, who spent a couple of years working around the business prior to their driver training, and were put through the IRO courses. That's an apprenticeship.

What TOCs are doing now, which is just trainee drivers by another name with a meaningless "functional skills" qualification, isn't.

 

[SLee]

What TOCs are doing now, which is just trainee drivers by another name with a meaningless "functional skills" qualification, isn't.

Even if that is the case, it’s such a small price for us trainees to pay to get this job.

And personally considering I don’t have my school qualifications I’m more than happy to get the functional skills NVQ.

I think if people can’t stomach the functional skills and feel hard done to then they will probably have a shock when they start the rules and regs and traction training.

This is in no way attacking the op, just sharing my thoughts on the matter of the apprenticeship.

 

[michael74]

The problem is that it's not an apprenticeship. You're not gaining any meaningful qualifications. You're not getting anything you wouldn't have got from the traineeship. But the TOCs get some money that isn't being used for its intended purpose.

IIRC, about 6 years or so ago, Virgin Trains took on a few Driver Apprentices, who spent a couple of years working around the business prior to their driver training, and were put through the IRO courses. That's an apprenticeship.

What TOCs are doing now, which is just trainee drivers by another name with a meaningless "functional skills" qualification, isn't.

While a driver may not be attaining a BSC etc it is an apprenticeship, a qualification is gained and its introducing an industry standard, which in the long term is a positive thing, what is so bad with all that?

Apprenticeship Standards for Train Driver

The TOCs are getting back what they paid in, some money is sliced off the top to allow for smaller firms to employ an apprentice who can't afford to pay into the levy, that is the intended purpose of the levy

6 years ago is not now is it, nor do we see many 5 year indentured apprentices.

Functional Skills is not meaningless, fact.

 

[NorthernTech]

While a driver may not be attaining a BSC etc it is an apprenticeship, a qualification is gained and its introducing an industry standard, which in the long term is a positive thing, what is so bad with all that?

Apprenticeship Standards for Train Driver

The TOCs are getting back what they paid in, some money is sliced off the top to allow for smaller firms to employ an apprentice who can't afford to pay into the levy, that is the intended purpose of the levy

6 years ago is not now is it, nor do we see many 5 year indentured apprentices.

Functional Skills is not meaningless, fact.

Well said.

 

[Efini92]

My TOC, like most now it seems, have fully transitioned to all external trainees being classed as apprenticeships, internal is in progress.

Obviously they are doing this to get the government cash towards training costs (dubious imo), but I wondered if anyone here is currently on one of these apprenticeships and whether there are any real differences.

For instance, so you have any coursework to complete? If so, how much?
Also, are you allocated time within your work hours to complete this coursework?
Will the training plan be longer and include any extra modules?

My TOC is offering the same wage (training and PQ), are other TOCs the same?

Personally, if I was given the choice I would prefer not to be an on apprenticeship but I'm not sure I will get the choice!

I wouldn’t be put off applying or accepting a job because of it, it’s just the way it’s going to be from now on.
The last trainee I had was on the apprentice scheme, he said other than it being a waste of time there wasn’t much to it.

 

[SJN]

Hi. I started as an apprentice trainee driver last year. The people from the training school did a meeting over teams during to covid on the 2nd day of the course and we had to do some assessments to see what level we were. If you could prove you held qualification certificates already then you didn’t have to do any more. You’re given access to a website where you can do practice questions in your own time if you want to. There is a week set aside during the course to do the exams. If you don’t pass, then you can do them again. Failing them doesn’t mean you fail the drivers course though. You have to pass the driver assessments separately and they’re the most important part. There are phone call reviews too. As a conductor, you will have already done a rules course and I’m sure you know pretty much what to expect from speaking to others at work. Good luck. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Hi. I started as an apprentice trainee driver last year. The people from the training school did a meeting over teams during to covid on the 2nd day of the course and we had to do some assessments to see what level we were. If you could prove you held qualification certificates already then you didn’t have to do any more. You’re given access to a website where you can do practice questions in your own time if you want to. There is a week set aside during the course to do the exams. If you don’t pass, then you can do them again. Failing them doesn’t mean you fail the drivers course though. You have to pass the driver assessments separately and they’re the most important part. There are phone call reviews too. As a conductor, you will have already done a rules course and I’m sure you know pretty much what to expect from speaking to others at work. Good luck. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions

Interesting, so if there's no work to be done other than initial assessment then I really don't see the point other than to claim back some costs. I really was expecting there to be coursework involved but clearly not.

Obviously I wouldn't be so stupid as to turn down a driver's job regardless of the hoops involved, plenty of them just to get the opportunity at my depot!

 

[SJN]

Interesting, so if there's no work to be done other than initial assessment then I really don't see the point other than to claim back some costs. I really was expecting there to be coursework involved but clearly not.

Obviously I wouldn't be so stupid as to turn down a driver's job regardless of the hoops involved, plenty of them just to get the opportunity at my depot!

There is a week where you do all the exams. Also you can do the practice ones if you want to. I started to do them as I thought I had to but it turned out that wasn’t the case.

 

[the sniper]

The problem is that it's not an apprenticeship. You're not gaining any meaningful qualifications. You're not getting anything you wouldn't have got from the traineeship. But the TOCs get some money that isn't being used for its intended purpose.

IIRC, about 6 years or so ago, Virgin Trains took on a few Driver Apprentices, who spent a couple of years working around the business prior to their driver training, and were put through the IRO courses. That's an apprenticeship.

What TOCs are doing now, which is just trainee drivers by another name with a meaningless "functional skills" qualification, isn't.

I agree, what VT did was a proper apprenticeship. What's done by most now is largely just a box ticking exercise which people shouldn't give too much thought.

 

[wobman]

Tocs are only getting back the money they have paid into the govt apprenticeship scheme and trainees gain an NVQ level 3 qualification paid for by the Toc.

The Tocs pay for all the training / accommodation/ travel and gain the accreditation to put the scheme in place. Plus trainees get a good training wage whilst training and being non productive.

I'm baffled by so much negativity towards being paid to get a free qualification in an industry that's very difficult to get into.
Even before the apprenticeship schemes were brought in, trainee driver training involves lots of home study.
After each day in the training centre you will have homework, that's always been the way.

After leaving the training centre you still have to complete workbooks and the CMS competency whilst completing your driving hours.

It's not easy training to be a train driver.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I think the OP has asked a perfectly legitimate question about whether the apprenticeship is meaningful because of concerns about whether it will impact on the rest of the course in terms of workload. Obviously if he wants the job then he'll need to do it but it doesn't mean he shouldn't ask the question.

Whether the apprenticeship adds any value to the role of driver remains to be seen and will be quite subjective I suspect.

 

[ComUtoR]

For instance, so you have any coursework to complete? If so, how much?

I am on an Apprenticeship and its my second one. As my current one is slightly higher than previous there is a lot more coursework to fit in with my daily activities. There is always going to be an element of additional work but as has already been mentioned; consider it a compliment to your Trainee Driver course too. Most of the Apprenticeship is about seeing what you do every day and then logging it and providing it as evidence towards a national qualification. The general experience at my TOC is that the coursework isn't too much and barely makes a dent but the functional skills English/Maths/IT element is what people are concerned about

Also, are you allocated time within your work hours to complete this coursework?

An element of on and off the job time.

Will the training plan be longer and include any extra modules?

Potentially yes because some TOCs may require completion of the Apprenticeship as a step towards becoming fully qualified. Your Trainee Driver training is run by your TOC so should be independent. What will probably happen is that the two get more and more integrated over time.

I'm not wanting to come across negative, it would be a why should I need to do more work for the same money as someone who joined 12 months prior when then weren't doing it as apprenticeships

12 months ago the rules were different. 10yrs ago the rules were different, and I'm sure that they will change in the future. The railway is evolving and will always continue to do so. Someone else who comes in the future will have different entry requirements than you had.

...can't imagine what ever the qualification you obtain would actually help you get a driver job elsewhere.

This all depends on your perspective. You are looking at if from someone being pushed into an Apprenticeship that you don't really believe in or would prefer not to take. Change that perspective to an Employers and you will then see the benefit.

 

[Stigy]

While a driver may not be attaining a BSC etc it is an apprenticeship, a qualification is gained and its introducing an industry standard, which in the long term is a positive thing, what is so bad with all that?

Apprenticeship Standards for Train Driver

The TOCs are getting back what they paid in, some money is sliced off the top to allow for smaller firms to employ an apprentice who can't afford to pay into the levy, that is the intended purpose of the levy

6 years ago is not now is it, nor do we see many 5 year indentured apprentices.

Functional Skills is not meaningless, fact.

Ultimately though, if you become a trainee driver and pass the course, subsequently becoming qualified, you’re in exactly the same place as you would be after having completed the apprenticeship for the same job. You’re a qualified driver, and will be for as long as you retain your rules, route and traction competencies generally speaking. Does the apprenticeship mean you could leave the driving grade and come back in day, 6 years, still as a qualified train driver? If that was the case, that would surely be the only advantage to undertaking an apprenticeship? An apprenticeship gives you a qualification, without an expiry date (as far as I’m aware), but a qualified driver (if he or she leaves driving) who undertook a traditional traineeship, would have to start as a trainee again if they were to leave the railway or the grade for a few years.

At the end of the day though, it’s compulsory if the TOC/FOC say it is, and frankly, anyone not happy with that decision, doesn’t have to apply. People should really be grateful at getting the opportunity to be honest, whether that’s by way of an apprenticeship, or a traditional traineeship.

 

[Terry844]

Some tocs/focs could make it a requirement in the future when recruiting qualified drivers, you never know what lies ahead.

 

[SJN]

Ultimately though, if you become a trainee driver and pass the course, subsequently becoming qualified, you’re in exactly the same place as you would be after having completed the apprenticeship for the same job. You’re a qualified driver, and will be for as long as you retain your rules, route and traction competencies generally speaking. Does the apprenticeship mean you could leave the driving grade and come back in day, 6 years, still as a qualified train driver? If that was the case, that would surely be the only advantage to undertaking an apprenticeship? An apprenticeship gives you a qualification, without an expiry date (as far as I’m aware), but a qualified driver (if he or she leaves driving) who undertook a traditional traineeship, would have to start as a trainee again if they were to leave the railway or the grade for a few years.

At the end of the day though, it’s compulsory if the TOC/FOC say it is, and frankly, anyone not happy with that decision, doesn’t have to apply. People should really be grateful at getting the opportunity to be honest, whether that’s by way of an apprenticeship, or a traditional traineeship.

As far as I’m aware the apprenticeship is to gain the functional skills qualifications if you can’t prove you already have the equivalent. I don’t believe you would remain a qualified driver if you left. It would be the same as it’s always been.

 

[Quin79]

I’m just super grateful to be given the start date.

most students are paid 18k a year to be on an apprenticeship and I’ll be earning 58k, I couldn’t be more happy!

Also with Covid and this war which has and is effecting the cash flow of TOCS I’m happy to do what it takes to help the TOC get back a little extra cash, especially if it keeps me in a job.

What TOC pays 58k during training??? Most are high 20's to mid 30k

 

[Terry844]

As far as I’m aware the apprenticeship is to gain the functional skills qualifications if you can’t prove you already have the equivalent. I don’t believe you would remain a qualified driver if you left. It would be the same as it’s always been.

Functional skills qualifications? Maths, English and ICT are a requirement to take part in the apprenticeship, candidates that have not got them or evidence to show they have them will have to take the qualifications. That’s what was explained to me during my DMI.

 

[iwasyoungonce]

What TOC pays 58k during training??? Most are high 20's to mid 30k

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