Are Class 700’s really that bad?

[Intro298]

Hello everyone, as a local user of the Class 700 i think that they are great trains. Comfortable, quiet and reliable. The screens are amazing and very informative, and the seats, which are the main complaint on this train from others, aren’t that bad, they have good window alignment, and they have a great shape that makes up for the lack of padding. My only issue is the lack if tray tables and armrests in standard class.

 

[AzureOtsu]

The lack of plug sockets, as opposed to the similar Class 717s, bright florescent lights, and of course the ironing board seats & lack of tables, make using these trains for intercity Brighton/Cambridge seem like an afterthought.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having tried both in close succession, they are vastly preferable to the awful Class 720. However that is not saying much, and they could be a lot better when you look at the ambiance of other Desiros.

 

[py_megapixel]

Having tried both in close succession, they are vastly preferable to the awful Class 720. However that is not saying much, and they could be a lot better when you look at the ambiance of other Desiros.

What is wrong with the 720, exactly?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is wrong with the 720, exactly?

The seating layout is suitable only for age 12 and below. It's basically pretty much the same as a 3+2 schoolkid road coach.

It is without doubt the least comfortable train I have ever had the misfortune to use.

It looks similar to the 350/2, but the extra 10cm or so of interior width on the 350/2 makes a massive difference.

Also, despite the ironing board having bad press, the Kiel seats on the 720 are harder.

There's a specific thread to discuss just how bad it is: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/quick-mercifully-ride-on-a-class-720.229695/

 

[TheEdge]

The lack of plug sockets, as opposed to the similar Class 717s, bright florescent lights, and of course the ironing board seats & lack of tables, make using these trains for intercity Brighton/Cambridge seem like an afterthought.

Its's not really an Intercity service. Its two regional services, Brighton - London Bridge and Kings Cross - Cambridge that have been bolted together through the Thameslink Core. The amount of people making a full trip is probably very few.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Some 700s have been fitted with seat back tables, but still dont have large enough leg pitch for anyone 6ft tall or wide enough for anyone over 14st add in the lack of cushioning, resulting in me only using std class when I can't get into the declassified 1st Class at the rear of the trains

Generally they are smooth, easy to walk through, brilliant people eaters but any thing longer than a 30min journey they are unbearable

 

[Intro298]

Some 700s have been fitted with seat back tables, but still dont have large enough leg pitch for anyone 6ft tall or wide enough for anyone over 14st add in the lack of cushioning, resulting in me only using std class when I can't get into the declassified 1st Class at the rear of the trains

Generally they are smooth, easy to walk through, brilliant people eaters but any thing longer than a 30min journey they are unbearable

I have to agree that the legroom is horrible, but the seat width has never been an issue for me.

 

[bramling]

Hello everyone, as a local user of the Class 700 i think that they are great trains. Comfortable, quiet and reliable. The screens are amazing and very informative, and the seats, which are the main complaint on this train from others, aren’t that bad, they have good window alignment, and they have a great shape that makes up for the lack of padding. My only issue is the lack if tray tables and armrests in standard class.

I’d say the question isn’t so much whether they’re that bad, but whether they’re that good.

The interior is clinical. The specification is what one would expect to find in a Travelodge bathroom. The seats are uncomfortable, the lighting is harsh (though when in “standby” mode it’s much better), noise carries due to the lack of padding on the floor and walls. The worst thing is the seats are too close to the sides.

Refit the interior to be more akin to first, add some carpet, and they’d be much better.

I’m not keen on the walk-through design either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have to agree that the legroom is horrible, but the seat width has never been an issue for me.

Because they are slightly spaced from the wall and between them, you get more width than the 720 or 350/2.

Here's another upside - the PIS is excellent, the best I have ever seen.

Refit the interior to be more akin to first, add some carpet, and they’d be much better.

Carpet isn't great for commuter trains, it rapidly gets filthy. A nicer design of lino, e.g. fake wood, would be an improvement, though.

As to them being close to the sides, there's a 1" spacer. Try a 720...

 

[Intro298]

I’d say the question isn’t so much whether they’re that bad, but whether they’re that good.

The interior is clinical. The specification is what one would expect to find in a Travelodge bathroom. The seats are uncomfortable, the lighting is harsh (though when in “standby” mode it’s much better), noise carries due to the lack of padding on the floor and walls. The worst thing is the seats are too close to the sides.

Refit the interior to be more akin to first, add some carpet, and they’d be much better.

I’m not keen on the walk-through design either.

The seats aren’t uncomfortable, they are hard, but the excellent shape of the seat, means that they don’t feel that hard. Carpet won’t help anything really, and would probably cause more problems for cleaning staff than the floor. The walk through design is also amazing, and means that it is easier to get between carriages, and it gives the train a more spacious feel.

 

[bramling]

The seats aren’t uncomfortable, they are hard, but the excellent shape of the seat, means that they don’t feel that hard. Carpet won’t help anything really, and would probably cause more problems for cleaning staff than the floor. The walk through design is also amazing, and means that it is easier to get between carriages, and it gives the train a more spacious feel.

So for a few seconds ease of access when getting on a train, maybe, it leads to a less pleasant travelling environment for the duration of the journey.

On the GN route there was carpet on the 365s for 15 years or so, without issue. No reason at all why the 700s couldn’t have it, especially the 700/1s which tend to do the longer journeys.

 

[Intro298]

So for a few seconds ease of access when getting on a train, maybe, it leads to a less pleasant travelling environment for the duration of the journey.

On the GN route there was carpet on the 365s for 15 years or so, without issue. No reason at all why the 700s couldn’t have it, especially the 700/1s which tend to do the longer journeys.

There carpets obviously look good, because they are cleaned, but it is much more of a hassle to clean carpet than to clean the current flooring type. How does the walk through design unpleasantly affect the travelling experience?

 

[QSK19]

Personally, I detest the 700s from an emotional point of view, not from a technical or practical point of view.

I worked for Bombardier when we lost the Thameslink contract and I’ve never experienced such a depressed office with an air of uncertainty and the fear that we would lose our livelihoods. To lose a £1.4bn contract was a very bitter pill to swallow.

I’m sure that there are many merits to the 700 (and I’m not going to argue against them); however they nevertheless remind me of a very difficult time in my life and I resent them thoroughly.

 

[Heathen]

But it's not a question of comparing them with another class of unit. The seats are appalling hard, too close together (to allow for more peak time standing) and other than the end seats designated for older people, the leg room makes travelling uncomfortable for anubody of more than average height. First class is a little better but it is Interesting that so few people buy first class tickets that one first class section is always declassified.

They are essentially suburban units being used for long distance services - oh, and there are no staff on board so nobody to deal with recalcitrant passengers.

 

[bramling]

There carpets obviously look good, because they are cleaned, but it is much more of a hassle to clean carpet than to clean the current flooring type. How does the walk through design unpleasantly affect the travelling experience?

In terms of walkthrough, it means noise carries through the train.

Carpet isn’t hard to clean, and can mask minor mess. The floors on the 700s can look absolutely disgusting quite quickly. A side benefit of carpet is that it deadens sound too.

 

[Intro298]

In terms of walkthrough, it means noise carries through the train.

Carpet isn’t hard to clean, and can mask minor mess. The floors on the 700s can look absolutely disgusting quite quickly. A side benefit of carpet is that it deadens sound too.

A tiny bit of extra noise carrying through a quiet train is not a reason to make moving throughout the train a lot less convenient

 

[Mikey C]

I hate the seating as well for anything more than short journeys. Because the seats are so close to the wall AND the heating duct so intrusive, the window passengers sprawl into the aisle seat, meaning the aisle passengers sprawl uncomfortably into the unnecessarily wide aisle.

The seats are ironing boards and the legroom not great either

 

[Intro298]

But it's not a question of comparing them with another class of unit. The seats are appalling hard, too close together (to allow for more peak time standing) and other than the end seats designated for older people, the leg room makes travelling uncomfortable for anubody of more than average height. First class is a little better but it is Interesting that so few people buy first class tickets that one first class section is always declassified.

They are essentially suburban units being used for long distance services - oh, and there are no staff on board so nobody to deal with recalcitrant passengers.

They are hardly long distance services, they are regional services that go a long way, with a lot more stops than the fast Southern and Great Northern services that run along the same routes.

 

[fgwrich]

So for a few seconds ease of access when getting on a train, maybe, it leads to a less pleasant travelling environment for the duration of the journey.

On the GN route there was carpet on the 365s for 15 years or so, without issue. No reason at all why the 700s couldn’t have it, especially the 700/1s which tend to do the longer journeys.

Well, there was carpet, until the DfT dummed them down from being an excellent all rounder of unit to a commuter unit. All part and parcel of the prep to get commuters used to that of the 700 no doubt.

Despite the aforementioned issues with the seats (and I'll admit, their positioning over the trunking is somewhat silly), I don't mind the 700s. Though their South Western cousins can show how much better they can be with some introductions of colour.

Still, having used their equivalent from Bombardier, I much prefer anything from Siemens any day of the week. The lightweight bogies on the Desiro City for example, offering a far smoother ride than the Flexx Eco.

 

[Minstral25]

The trains seem excellent, swallow people when busy and run reliably. Plus good PA with information and are very long.

The issue of course is the seats, for me (as a larger gentleman) that means lack of width, lack of leg room, lack of arm rests (to sperate me from the person next to me) and the lack of table is half the fleet.

Solution, been getting my steps up by using first class at rear of train, but I can tell you walking down 12 coaches at the platform is a long way.

 

[bramling]

A tiny bit of extra noise carrying through a quiet train is not a reason to make moving throughout the train a lot less convenient

Why not? The majority of passengers have no reason to pass through the train at all. So why is making this facility more convenient for a minority of passengers a good reason to downgrade the travelling experience for most?

Then there’s the issue of containment within the vehicle during an accident. There’s been much focus on the lack of protection provided by the HST cab and vestibules at Carmont, yet walk-through designs offer no protection at all once the vehicle uncouples. Should, heaven forbid, a serious accident happens (bear in mind the GN route saw a 100mph derailment at Potters Bar where a vehicle separated), and a load of passengers get tipped out the vehicle end, walk-through will go off the flavour list very quickly indeed.

 

[Class 466]

Nope, literally nothing wrong with them at all. Honestly bored of all the fuss over seats when they’ve played a key part in revolutionising the Thameslink Route.

 

[py_megapixel]

Nope, literally nothing wrong with them at all. Honestly bored of all the fuss over seats when they’ve played a key part in revolutionising the Thameslink Route.

Are you suggesting that if they had more comfortable seats, they wouldn't have played a key part in revolutionising the Thameslink route?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are you suggesting that if they had more comfortable seats, they wouldn't have played a key part in revolutionising the Thameslink route?

More comfortable not necessarily, although seat comfort is subjective. Wider seats would have had an impact on standing room without doubt. Some have suggested the first class layout should have been throughout, and that would definitely have impacted capacity.

 

[bramling]

Nope, literally nothing wrong with them at all. Honestly bored of all the fuss over seats when they’ve played a key part in revolutionising the Thameslink Route.

Any revolution has gone well and truly sour thanks to Covid. Indeed the 700s may well be a more significant problem for a railway which suddenly finds itself needing to compete to attract every single user.

Something like a 365, especially in their original form, could hold their own competing against modern cars, and indeed have a proven track record in doing so with passenger numbers skyrocketing. Thameslink is now competing as the dirty uncomfortable Travelodge-type travel option but without bargain basement prices.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I will happily let a 700 go at East Croydon and wait for a Southern service if travelling southbound. A 377 is vastly preferable to me, not just because of comfort, but mainly because they actually have a bit of colour and not dentist surgery white and sterilised blue.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Any revolution has gone well and truly sour thanks to Covid. Indeed the 700s may well be a more significant problem for a railway which suddenly finds itself needing to compete to attract every single user.

Something like a 365, especially in their original form, could hold their own competing against modern cars, and indeed have a proven track record in doing so with passenger numbers skyrocketing. Thameslink is now competing as the dirty uncomfortable Travelodge-type travel option but without bargain basement prices.

It's bamboozles me that a nearly 27 year old train running on a similar design as the much despised Networkers can achieve such nostalgic rose tinted glasses love?
I'm sure the 700s have massively increased capacity, reliability (of rolling stock), added air con and shortened journey times compared to the 365s and old users still want them back. I mean they were alright back in the day but their day was 20+ years ago

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Any revolution has gone well and truly sour thanks to Covid. Indeed the 700s may well be a more significant problem for a railway which suddenly finds itself needing to compete to attract every single user.

Something like a 365, especially in their original form, could hold their own competing against modern cars, and indeed have a proven track record in doing so with passenger numbers skyrocketing. Thameslink is now competing as the dirty uncomfortable Travelodge-type travel option but without bargain basement prices.

I really don't get the issue with the 700's. I think they are great trains that have made a massive difference. And most of the time I've heard non-enthusuasts talk about Thameslink trains, I've heard them say how they are the best trains they've been on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's bamboozles me that a nearly 27 year old train running on a similar design as the much despised Networkers can achieve such nostalgic rose tinted glasses love?
I'm sure the 700s have massively increased capacity, reliability (of rolling stock), added air con and shortened journey times compared to the 365s and old users still want them back. I mean they were alright back in the day but their day was 20+ years ago

I think it shows just how much difference the seats and their layout make to what people think of a unit. Fit Grammer E3000s (as per 350s) in 2+2 with armrests tables to the 700s, and I think people would love them. I find the Northern 195/331 show that the "people eating" is more about wide doors and standbacks than narrow seats.