Are Class 700’s really that bad?

[PGAT]

Cannot help but noticing , that off peak on moderately busy trains - the 4 seater bays tend to be almost occupied first as the seat of choice.

Said before - but tight air line seats , the over narrow seats and the annoying conduit really don't help. See Ian Walmsley's writings in Modern Railways passim.

Yeah I agree with you, I feel more trapped on the window seat of the airline seats, and some of the time you get the poorly aligned windows.

 

[bramling]

No, I'm sorry; after their last refurbishment that's exactly what the ambience was like.

They weren’t that bad, though it certainly spoiled them. At the time it was suggested on here that part of the rationale for the refurbishment was to dumb them down, to prepare GN side passengers for the 700s.

 

[Minstral25]

I'm not a fan of the seating on the 700s, they are too small for my 6'3" body to fit, especially lack of leg room and far too close together to be able to sit comfortably.

However, the real problem is they are becoming a hotbed of anti-social behaviour, and this is as much to do with design as operating practices. Last week I did 6 journeys on them over 2 days - average journey length was around 40 minutes from a supposedly not so bad bit of Surrey.

On 4 journeys Beggers/Tissue Sellers taking advantage of the open layout to pass their charms and demands onto very uncomfortable passengers. It is both the design of the trains and lack of onboard staff that combine to make these trains ideal for the beggar gangs to set up and operate on. The open through layout is good for sucking in passengers but the openness of the seating means it is easy for beggars to get to those sitting down. As I head into my senior years these approaches feel more and more threatening. After many years of using late night train services regularly I would now rather drive into London at night than use a Thameslink train - although to be fair that is also partially about the lack of confidence in the service running.

On both the other two trains I was sitting in rear first class (declassified), in the first train a passenger with a dog sat opposite me and he encouraged his dog to sit in the seat, in the second a family took up a nearby table for four and set about making the most foul-smelling sandwiches I have encountered which again the open design meant the smell permeated the whole carriage. In both cases no Guard or OBS to ask them to refrain.

Using the train has become far more unpleasant since the 700s have appeared - it may be about general behaviour, but I do think the trains are partially at fault as when we had the occasional 319 and mostly 377's to London Bridge these problems almost never happened.

 

[samulih]

I am sorry Mins, but all your issues seem to be more about your "feelings" than any real issues

COVID might have been more creative force for these issues than 700.

 

[Hadders]

I'm not a fan of the seating on the 700s, they are too small for my 6'3" body to fit, especially lack of leg room and far too close together to be able to sit comfortably.

However, the real problem is they are becoming a hotbed of anti-social behaviour, and this is as much to do with design as operating practices. Last week I did 6 journeys on them over 2 days - average journey length was around 40 minutes from a supposedly not so bad bit of Surrey.

On 4 journeys Beggers/Tissue Sellers taking advantage of the open layout to pass their charms and demands onto very uncomfortable passengers. It is both the design of the trains and lack of onboard staff that combine to make these trains ideal for the beggar gangs to set up and operate on. The open through layout is good for sucking in passengers but the openness of the seating means it is easy for beggars to get to those sitting down. As I head into my senior years these approaches feel more and more threatening. After many years of using late night train services regularly I would now rather drive into London at night than use a Thameslink train - although to be fair that is also partially about the lack of confidence in the service running.

On both the other two trains I was sitting in rear first class (declassified), in the first train a passenger with a dog sat opposite me and he encouraged his dog to sit in the seat, in the second a family took up a nearby table for four and set about making the most foul-smelling sandwiches I have encountered which again the open design meant the smell permeated the whole carriage. In both cases no Guard or OBS to ask them to refrain.

Using the train has become far more unpleasant since the 700s have appeared - it may be about general behaviour, but I do think the trains are partially at fault as when we had the occasional 319 and mostly 377's to London Bridge these problems almost never happened.

Some rose tinted specs.

There are reasons to not like the 700s but the open layout and seating isn’t driving anti-social behaviour. Tissue sellers and anti-social type used the trains before 700s were around. Their predecessor trains were driver only operated since the 1980s.

With a recession in full swing, and the after effects of covid still being felt crime and anti-social behaviour will get worse before it gets better.

 

[WizCastro197]

I am sorry Mins, but all your issues seem to be more about your "feelings" than any real issues

COVID might have been more creative force for these issues than 700.

But How? The leg room is definitely an issue? They raise some good points about lack of space for taller travellers, Southern don't have this problem.

I'm not a fan of the seating on the 700s, they are too small for my 6'3" body to fit, especially lack of leg room and far too close together to be able to sit comfortably.

However, the real problem is they are becoming a hotbed of anti-social behaviour, and this is as much to do with design as operating practices. Last week I did 6 journeys on them over 2 days - average journey length was around 40 minutes from a supposedly not so bad bit of Surrey.

On 4 journeys Beggers/Tissue Sellers taking advantage of the open layout to pass their charms and demands onto very uncomfortable passengers. It is both the design of the trains and lack of onboard staff that combine to make these trains ideal for the beggar gangs to set up and operate on. The open through layout is good for sucking in passengers but the openness of the seating means it is easy for beggars to get to those sitting down. As I head into my senior years these approaches feel more and more threatening. After many years of using late night train services regularly I would now rather drive into London at night than use a Thameslink train - although to be fair that is also partially about the lack of confidence in the service running.

On both the other two trains I was sitting in rear first class (declassified), in the first train a passenger with a dog sat opposite me and he encouraged his dog to sit in the seat, in the second a family took up a nearby table for four and set about making the most foul-smelling sandwiches I have encountered which again the open design meant the smell permeated the whole carriage. In both cases no Guard or OBS to ask them to refrain.

Using the train has become far more unpleasant since the 700s have appeared - it may be about general behaviour, but I do think the trains are partially at fault as when we had the occasional 319 and mostly 377's to London Bridge these problems almost never happened.

I found now my absolute Rule Number 1 is to always choose Southern to Victoria and tube it from there on, but unfortunately if you are going to North London or beyond, Thameslink is really the only option unless you want to do the long way.

I have never sat in Thameslink First Class, Are seats more comfortable? Any chance they could've put these seats in standard and had no FC?

 

[Hadders]

I have never sat in Thameslink First Class, Are seats more comfortable? Any chance they could've put these seats in standard and had no FC?

The seats in 1st class are much more comfortable. It would’ve been nice if these had been used throughout but this would have meant less space for standing passengers and an overall lower capacity.

The rear 1st class compartment on class 700s is declassified and can be used by standard class ticket holders which is useful if making a long journey.

 

[AM9]

The seats in 1st class are much more comfortable. It would’ve been nice if these had been used throughout but this would have meant less space for standing passengers and an overall lower capacity.

The rear 1st class compartment on class 700s is declassified and can be used by standard class ticket holders which is useful if making a long journey.

Plus any of the Sutton loop service trains are second class only (as shown in the timetables) so both the front and rear 1st class areas are available to standard class ticket holders.

 

[jon0844]

Cannot help but noticing , that off peak on moderately busy trains - the 4 seater bays tend to be almost occupied first as the seat of choice.

Said before - but tight air line seats , the over narrow seats and the annoying conduit really don't help. See Ian Walmsley's writings in Modern Railways passim.

Walk though any 700 at certain times (like late evening) and you'll see why; I'd wager that 90% of them put their feet up on the seat in front. Perhaps higher.

 

[bramling]

Walk though any 700 at certain times (like late evening) and you'll see why; I'd wager that 90% of them put their feet up on the seat in front. Perhaps higher.

The 365 seats had a bar under the seat bases which acted as a convenient foot rest when sitting in a facing seat bay, indeed it was so convenient I always wondered if it was purposely designed like that. Give people uncomfortable seating as in the 700s and it’s no surprise feet end up on seats, especially with the ducting issue affecting all windows seats.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

If you're tall seek out a bay of 4, or a priority seat, there are plenty of them per carriage or head to the rear 1st Class, and if you only have the option of a normal airline seat...don't...stand until a taller person seat becomes available! Simples

 

[ThameslinkUser]

If you're tall seek out a bay of 4

Not good advice if somebody chooses to sit opposite (highly likely)

 

[WizCastro197]

Not good advice if somebody chooses to sit opposite (highly likely)

Yeah but it wouldn’t happen at all of you didn’t take the bay of 4 which then réstricts larger groups from sitting together.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah but it wouldn’t happen at all of you didn’t take the bay of 4 which then réstricts larger groups from sitting together.

If I don't fit in an airline seat I don't have any choice. Bar standing, which I don't have any moral need to do any more than anyone else.

 

[WizCastro197]

If I don't fit in an airline seat I don't have any choice. Bar standing, which I don't have any moral need to do any more than anyone else.

Yeah alright. That makes sense

 

[43066]

Yeah but it wouldn’t happen at all of you didn’t take the bay of 4 which then réstricts larger groups from sitting together.

Since when was that a “thing”? People have every right to sit wherever they feel comfortable.

 

[gmaguire]

On 4 journeys Beggers/Tissue Sellers taking advantage of the open layout to pass their charms and demands onto very uncomfortable passengers. It is both the design of the trains and lack of onboard staff that combine to make these trains ideal for the beggar gangs to set up and operate on. The open through layout is good for sucking in passengers but the openness of the seating means it is easy for beggars to get to those sitting down. As I head into my senior years these approaches feel more and more threatening. After many years of using late night train services regularly I would now rather drive into London at night than use a Thameslink train - although to be fair that is also partially about the lack of confidence in the service running.

I used to see this sort of thing when I used the District line, which is one reason I try not to use it now. Again, it’s an open layout which encourages people to walk through the train.

 

[jon0844]

Tissue beggars did just as good on 317s so I don't think the train design makes much difference. They only work small sections at a time anyway.

In some ways it works better with doors between carriages.