So these longer distance passengers settle down in their seats and expect the facilities of a mobile office to be provided whereas those poor individuals who get on at later stops consider themselves lucky to get a decent standing. It's all about capacity place now, - unless you think that more space should be available if you want to pay for it.
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Are Class 700’s really that bad?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There's some sense in that when you have a train that's used for both types of journey. A typical pattern on the WCML on a semifast is that there'll be plenty of space boarding at MKC or Bletchley (45+ minutes in) - time you may want to use productively, whereas passengers at Bushey or Harrow may have to cram on, but have a much shorter journey.
ThameslinkUser
Member
Are you seriously suggesting that persons travelling East Croydon to London Bridge will have same expectations of those travelling Littlehampton to the same place?
Mikey C
Established Member
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Something I noticed today, was the doors "slamming" as another train went past at speed.
The Mk3 EMUs were notorious for this, and while nowhere near as bad as them, it was a definite step back from stock with plug doors.
The Mk3 EMUs were notorious for this, and while nowhere near as bad as them, it was a definite step back from stock with plug doors.
In the days before the 700s were intriduced, that was the situation both from ECR and St Albans. Since then, although some trains only offer room for standees for the 20 minutes to LBG/STP respectively, but in previous times some fast up trains around 08:00 would leave passengers standing (and believe me, a crowded St Albans Platform 3 is not particularly safe when EMR trains whistle through at around 95mph)!
william.martin
On Moderation
Straight off the title question:
Yes, the massive problem is, is that you sit on an ironing board which is shaped to look like a chair, this is unacceptable for the length of journeys they undergo.
Imagine doing Brighton to Cambridge on an ironing board, the peak of discomfort on a train.
On a brighter side at least the ironing board seats are not as bad as those found on electrostars.
Yes, the massive problem is, is that you sit on an ironing board which is shaped to look like a chair, this is unacceptable for the length of journeys they undergo.
Imagine doing Brighton to Cambridge on an ironing board, the peak of discomfort on a train.
On a brighter side at least the ironing board seats are not as bad as those found on electrostars.
ThameslinkUser
Member
What station has a more frequent service? The respective termini or East Croydon/St Albans? As I say again, same trains, different journeys, different expectations of standards.
That isn't the way it is. If it was, Central Line tube stock would have deeper seats, that weren't facing across the cars.
The style of seating etc., is determined by the duration of the majority of journeys actually taken. For Thameslink services, the average journey time according to those here who know is around 20 minutes, and just because it's possible to travel for over two hours, that's not a driver for the seating design. I have travelled in the standard class seats from Bedford to Brighton once, and from St Alban's to Brighton, several times. The seats gave me a good posture but I accept that the knee room was a bit tight, (I'm just over 6ft. tall), that's the compromise for their capacity. However the layout is perfectly adequate for up to 1.5 HR. journeys to Gatwick yet still able to clear the crowds on a full platform when needed with adequate standing room.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Depends on your location, there are some areas that Vodaphone has the best coverage.
EE isn't necessarily expensive, if you are with another network that uses their infrastructure.
Brighton, about 6 tph and Bedford about 10 tph. St Albans and East Croydon both around 12 tph.
Both Termini serve London in around 1 hour so relatively short journeys. 666 seats on most trains (12 car), the additional 1100 standee room is needed for shorter rides e.g. SAC/ECR.
The seats really are not that bad. I am sure plenty of people do Cambridge/Bedford to Brighton for leisure trips and don't find it unacceptable.
Also remember that some people with back problems may actually prefer firm seats that keep you upright.
For a long journey, once you're through the core then you're pretty much assured the chance to move around the train if you need to stretch your legs.. or find a place at the back of the train.
Steve Harris
Member
I have done leisure trips to London and yes they are that bad !!
My bottom thinks it's been for a prostate examination and is glad to get off the god damm things tbh.
I did all line rail rovers annually for 2 weeks at a time between 1986 -88 and 1995 -2000 and I reckon I must of travelled thousands of miles by train and my backside was never numb after getting off a train, be that between Ayr - Glasgow Central or Glasgow Central - Euston. But it's definitely numb after a 50 mile journey on a 700.
Unfortunately where I live now I have no alternative than a 700
And for getting up and stretching your legs.. that (in my book) is an admission that the seats aren't great (as the only time I have had to get up on a journey is to go to the toilet).
I suggested you could get up if you needed to. I only ever get up to go to the toilet also (or use a bin), but I will always sit in (not) first class if I can. Obviously that's not always possible though and I survive.
It's worth noting that at WGC when the train comes in empty to start to Sevenoaks, not everyone is queuing up to enter first class at either end. Despite the announcements that all ticket holders may use first class, most are happy to willingly subject their backsides to the standard class seats.
It's worth noting that at WGC when the train comes in empty to start to Sevenoaks, not everyone is queuing up to enter first class at either end. Despite the announcements that all ticket holders may use first class, most are happy to willingly subject their backsides to the standard class seats.
That's what happens in a threads like this. Those who don't have a problem with the seats generally don't post just to say that - but mostly the complainers do. So effectively, a false picture is given based on the personal opinions of a few.
Steve Harris
Member
But just taking the posters on this forum doesn't give a true reflection on how good/bad the seats actually are.... simply because not all 700 users are members of this forum.
So thereby just taking the posts on here is in itself giving a false picture.
No it doesn't even if every 700 passenger was a member of this forum, because there is more incentive to complain than offer a neutral or positive comment. It's human nature that once somebody raises an issue, it becomes a 'me too' magnet for those who enjoy a good moan.
I have not travelled enough to compare 377's fitted with ironing boards and 387's to 700's. I am just glad the longer part of my journey is a Chiltern 168. ( I've never used a train booked for a loco and stock to/from London only for 30 mins or so at the north end of the route ).
While the average journey time on a 700 maybe 20 minutes and as a proportion the number making the full end-to-end journey small significant numbers travel for an hour or more. This was known at the design stage given they were class 319 replacements.
Like @Steve Harris I have found Brighton-London is more than enough, just like the 387's.
While I've not been on a 444 I agree there should have been two variants.
WizCastro197
Established Member
I’m not sure I can agree with you. Sorry!
I feel like I’ve said it so many times but I don’t think I have but I don’t think it’s designed for one to use it all the way from Cambridge to Brighton etc. So there is no point putting an intercity esque train.
Also making it similar to 444 would’ve significantly droned down capacity when it entered the core in the peaks.
SWR is a little different as such 444s only really call at major areas meaning there is less localised commuter traffic unlike Thameslink where many trains stop at small Surburban stations. Most people get off at Southampton anyway.
444 like trains are nice but I don’t think they would’ve worked well for this time of passenger traffic.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think doors at thirds with standbacks do make sense, but having used heavily crowded 195s I think the Standard seats could have been wider and more comfortable without causing loading issues.
Inter-city, even as recent trains are rather than HST/MK3 and MK4, is OTT but one-size-does-not-reasonably-fit-all hence three potential options
- two class 700 variants with one having seats suitable for 60+ minute journeys, which keeps the drivetrain and body the same
- make the seats in the outer carriages suitable for 60+ minute journeys which keeps all trains the same
- have two classes but then potentially different drivetrains and bodies so drivers & maintenance staff have to be trained twice.
WizCastro197
Established Member
Yes but aren’t almost all Thameslink full journeys more than 60 minutes so it practically eliminates the need for two variants?
I regularly do St Albans to Brighton (yes, in Standard class as I’m with friends) and *in my opinion* it’s absolutely fine. Far more comfortable than some Northern 15xs, or 317s, 319, or 321s etc etc..
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miklcct
On Moderation
Brighton is about 80 km from the City, Bedford the same distance as well. On the SWR network, these are served by class 450 which has the dreadful 3+2 seating. I'd prefer a 700 way over a 450!
The longest distance service of Thameslink, measured from the City, is the Peterborough service. It is still only half of the distance of the Weymouth - London intercity service where the 444 serves.
The 700 is the second-best commuter train in my opinion, just behind the 345. I'd say it is even better than the Metropolitan Line S-stock. The stock does its main function well on the outer-suburban service, although on the inner-suburban metro services (e.g. St Albans to Sutton) I'd like to see more horizontal seating on the 8-car 700s.
My experience on the overcrowded regional 377 is dreadful - 3+2 seating means the middle seat is seldom being squeezed in and there is virtually no space to stand in the corridors when I boarded at Clapham Junction in peak hours. What I took was a regional service to Southampton but most people alighted at East Croydon or Gatwick Airport.
Steve Harris
Member
You may think that, but it's well known that Britain's don't complain enough compared to other nationalities. (We normally grumble but don't do anything about it).
So there might well be more out there who don't like 700's who just can't be bothered to post.
But there is a majority who don't care enough to complain (which is what matters rather than concepts of British rail travellers 'not complaining enough compared to other nationalities'), so forget any ideas of the Thameslink TOC rushing out to fix any complaints before their mid-life update around 2035, if they bother at all. The trains are specifically configured for the routes that they run on so Porterbrook won't waste their time or money either.
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bramling
Veteran Member
Interesting 365 hasn’t been included on that list, which is the realistic comparison for most GN users. South of the river, one can also compare to the early breeds of 377 for some routes, where the 700 also compares unfavourably.
The classes listed are all Mk3 MUs and no Networker stock has ever been used on 'thameslink' services. A few 377/2 units were loaned from Southern in the late noughties, and apart from slightly softer (but tired) seat squabs, they had the poor riding characteristics of all Electrostars over the MML's poorer sections of track. They also struggled to cope with the busiest loads in the peaks.
ThameslinkUser
Member
And tables. And armrests. And Wi-Fi. And no electrical cable runs blocking the window seats. But then again, do the commuters being stuffed in like cattle really need such luxuries, even for longer distance?
Well I didn’t want to list everything
But for what it’s worth I rarely used the 365s, and only once or twice in Standard. I didn’t much like first in them, to be fair.
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