Are Class 700’s really that bad?

[Islineclear3_1]

It is surprising when, as you say, it’s such a picturesque route. The comment upthread about school catchment areas is spot on. Of course stopping at Swanley and St. Mary Cray doesn’t exactly help matters either.

Indeed, and surprisingly Otford as well

Anyway, they're perfect for the Brighton crowds....

 

[Minstral25]

The 700's are excellent units in many ways let down by drab and uncomfortable interiors that could be easily improved.

• Add spacers and armrests to the seats would mean you don't have to sit squashed into to someone you don't know. The gap in the middle of each coach is more than wide enough and in any case legs and shoulders of people sitting in outside seats are blocking that space anyway
• Remove one/two airline rows per coach (except end coaches as they have first class seats anyway) to increase seat pitch - loss of 40/80 seats from 666 on a 12 coach isn't end of the world but the leg room would be appreciated on most journeys.
• Improve the colour scheme of the interiors - it is far too drab

Additionally two other updates for those units without

• Fit Wi-fi in remaining units
• Fit seat back tables in remaining units

I don't expect there is budget out there for any of these changes but wish there was.

 

[Energy]

Remove one/two airline rows per coach (except end coaches as they have first class seats anyway) to increase seat pitch - loss of 40/80 seats from 666 on a 12 coach isn't end of the world but the leg room would be appreciated on most journeys.

The loss of seats and standing capacity does add up...

 

[ComUtoR]

I have to agree here; without getting too off-topic the idea of filling every bit of free space on a train with adverts is kind of depressing.

I would wrap the trains (like the old 319s) in huge bodyside adverts. Internally I think the advertising could be better. I like the modern advertising screens and this could be done on board for sure.

The railway needs money. Raising money through advertising revenue has always seemed to be lacking. Another income stream would be more than welcome.

 

[Minstral25]

The loss of seats and standing capacity does add up...

Obviously on seating but how many trains are actually full to capacity for the whole length of their journeys - none?

On Standing - the room is lost anyway with shoulders and feet spilling over into the aisle as there is not really enough room in the seats for people to actually sit. But again how often are trains so full that all the standing space is used - probably just 1 or 2 trains per day for a short part of their journey over the entire network.

 

[coradiafan2000]

It's a shame that some people hate these units. I think they're quite excellent. They're quick, have a great PIS system and despite not having the best seats I find them much more comfortable than the 319s due to the spacious interior and air conditioning. Yeah the livery is drab and the interior isn't exactly colourful, but I think they're perfect for Thameslink.

 

[hooverboy]

It's a shame that some people hate these units. I think they're quite excellent. They're quick, have a great PIS system and despite not having the best seats I find them much more comfortable than the 319s due to the spacious interior and air conditioning. Yeah the livery is drab and the interior isn't exactly colourful, but I think they're perfect for Thameslink.

In terms of mechanical ability there's not much to fault.They are quick off the blocks and reliable.
It's the aesthetics that lets them down. Very poor interior and in part,badly designed for the job they actually do,which is 2.5 hours of high capacity slog serving 2 airports, commuters ,and a holiday resort.
The inside layout has been designed for short distance(30 minute), commutes,with the extra overheads to serve the airports.The seats are only marginally better than a munich S-bahn,which is fairly comparable in terms of footfall but lines are about 45 mins to 1 hour end to end.

 

[Bald Rick]

Very poor interior and in part,badly designed for the job they actually do,which is 2.5 hours of high capacity slog serving 2 airports, commuters ,and a holiday resort.

They do any jobs, the majority of which is 30 minute commutes (or less).

 

[tasky]

To build on what other people have pointed out: if the train is busy, then the high capacity layout is needed. If the train isn't busy then you tend to end up with space to stretch out anyway and can probably get a double seat to yourself.

700s are functionally great, and I don't personally have a problem with the seats. The information screens and loading indicators are useful and everyday passengers appreciate these features.

I saw some people berating the walk-through nature of the carriages earlier up-thread and asking what the point was. When the train is busy it is extremely important for using all the space properly - people walk through the trains to find a seat. This is particularly useful in conjunction with the loading indicator displays which help people head in the right direction.

While I think the fundamentals are good, I don't think it would have killed them to spec the lighting to be a bit more ambient (also a problem on the Class 80x rolling stock) and perhaps make a little bit less use of grey plastic. The trains are perfectly pleasant when lit by sunlight but when relying on the internal lighting it can be a bit grim.

 

[Minstral25]

They do any jobs, the majority of which is 30 minute commutes (or less).

Think that is true but probably a statistical anomaly - at a guess 80% to 85% of passengers on trains arriving from the South at East Croydon will be doing well over 30 minute commutes. Yes when you add in short hops from East Croydon and also hops within the core the average will come right down making the average journey less than 30 minutes, but that is not telling the whole story - its massaging the figures to prove a point. My most common journey is Redhill to Farringdon which takes 40-45 minutes. Brighton and Bedford are an hour to the first station in London!

The truth is the interior layout is not suitable for a longer distance commuter train, yet this is much of what the 12 coach units do and should have been specified for. Passengers from Brighton, Haywards Heath, Horsham and Redhill are being short changed - I am sure that is the same for many north of the river too.

 

[Energy]

While I think the fundamentals are good, I don't think it would have killed them to spec the lighting to be a bit more ambient (also a problem on the Class 80x rolling stock) and perhaps make a little bit less use of grey plastic. The trains are perfectly pleasant when lit by sunlight but when relying on the internal lighting it can be a bit grim.

Agreed. Some carpet (or a darker colour floor), a more interesting moquette and a vinyl of something (even if its just London's skyline) in the toilet would help the train feel less clinical.

 

[43066]

Think that is true but probably a statistical anomaly - at a guess 80% to 85% of passengers on trains arriving from the South at East Croydon will be doing well over 30 minute commutes. Yes when you add in short hops from East Croydon and also hops within the core the average will come right down making the average journey less than 30 minutes, but that is not telling the whole story - its massaging the figures to prove a point. My most common journey is Redhill to Farringdon which takes 40-45 minutes. Brighton and Bedford are an hour to the first station in London!

The truth is the interior layout is not suitable for a longer distance commuter train, yet this is much of what the 12 coach units do and should have been specified for. Passengers from Brighton, Haywards Heath, Horsham and Redhill are being short changed - I am sure that is the same for many north of the river too.

The majority of passengers are doing 30 mins or less, so it’s right that the trains primarily cater for around this length of journey. It isn’t a “statistical anomaly”, IIRC typical usage was assessed around the time the trains were introduced (@Bald Rick will be able to confirm) so it was a known fact. Why would you discount those who only use the trains through the core?! I guarantee there are far more of those than there are people who commute from Bedford to London on the 700s.

In fact I’m one of them! My typical journey is London Bridge - St Pancras which they’re fine for. I also find the 700 seating fine for up to an hour or so, which must cover 99% of journeys. The total length of the routes is irrelevant to the useage case they’re designed for, in the same way as you wouldn’t expect Central Line trains to cater for the tiny % or passengers who travel from West Ruislip to Epping. It’s exactly the same concept with the 700s.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I've happily done hour long journeys on 700s. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that they're uncomfortable trains. I'd take one over the 319s they replaced in a heartbeat.

 

[jon0844]

While I think the fundamentals are good, I don't think it would have killed them to spec the lighting to be a bit more ambient

While you can't change the colour temperature or anything fancy, the 717s have two brightness levels and I assume the 700 does too. At night, it would be great to switch to the slightly lower brightness (although admittedly there's the safety aspect, where I expect people feel safer on a brightly lit carriage - even if it's just perception).

 

[bramling]

While you can't change the colour temperature or anything fancy, the 717s have two brightness levels and I assume the 700 does too. At night, it would be great to switch to the slightly lower brightness (although admittedly there's the safety aspect, where I expect people feel safer on a brightly lit carriage - even if it's just perception).

Yes the 700s have a mode called “standby lighting” which is I believe what is being used when the lights are dimmed. This is selectable on the driver’s train management system screen. Given that on a fair few occasions I’ve seen the same train running on dim mode at the start and end of the day, I presume the train retains the lighting on that mode until someone unselects it, though given it’s still very much the minority presumably it somehow gets unselected during overnight prep?

 

[XAM2175]

While I think the fundamentals are good, I don't think it would have killed them to spec the lighting to be a bit more ambient (also a problem on the Class 80x rolling stock) and perhaps make a little bit less use of grey plastic. The trains are perfectly pleasant when lit by sunlight but when relying on the internal lighting it can be a bit grim.

Agreed. Some carpet (or a darker colour floor), a more interesting moquette and a vinyl of something (even if its just London's skyline) in the toilet would help the train feel less clinical.

Personally I think the 700s are excellent units, but yes, there are a few of these little touches would help them feel a bit more welcoming. I'd also warm the colour temperature by a few hundred degrees, but nothing too major.

I can also accept that with the benefit of hindsight it probably wouldn't have hurt to have the seats mounted an inch or two further away from the walls, and with a wee bit more space between each seat in the pairs, but on the whole they as trains do the job more than well enough.

 

[GN Boy]

I would love for Siemens to update the 700s to include some of the features currently exclusive to the 717, such as ‘Terminal Mode’ which allows the train to be shut down in such a way that makes it easier to kick out any passengers still on board (each door is locked individually, rather than the entire train).

 

[jon0844]

I would love for Siemens to update the 700s to include some of the features currently exclusive to the 717, such as ‘Terminal Mode’ which allows the train to be shut down in such a way that makes it easier to kick out any passengers still on board (each door is locked individually, rather than the entire train).

That's been talked about for ages. Guess the DfT has to approve funding for the software update.

I am starting to think the DfT is probably going to have to approve the change of TfL Rail to Elizabeth Line on the screens!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think the 700s are excellent units, but yes, there are a few of these little touches would help them feel a bit more welcoming. I'd also warm the colour temperature by a few hundred degrees, but nothing too major.

I'd change the seat covers. The bland mid-blue contributes to the clinical feel - the bright red on the otherwise near-identical SWT 777s gave a totally different, much more welcoming feel. Perhaps change the pink oblique to red on the Thameslink brand, then you'd have an excuse to do red seats. (Pink seats would be like back to FirstGroup hell! )

I can also accept that with the benefit of hindsight it probably wouldn't have hurt to have the seats mounted an inch or two further away from the walls, and with a wee bit more space between each seat in the pairs, but on the whole they as trains do the job more than well enough.

Having been on a full-and-standing Northern 195 a few times now the thing that makes the difference is the standbacks and much less the width of the seats, so I am inclined to agree, particularly given than 20m stock is wider than 24m stock. Narrow seats are theoretically a good idea, but if two people are sat there there's invariably a person overhanging a bit on the aisle side so you don't *actually* get the width.

 

[JohnRegular]

My suspicion is that a layout similar to the SWR 455s is a better compromise- the seats are a bit wider, but there are areas of longitudinal seating closer to the doors.

Better seats for longer distance passengers, more standing capacity in the areas where it will actually be used. Fewer seats on the DfT's spreadsheets, though.

To answer the question posed in the thread title: no, they're not that bad, they could be better but they're okay really.

 

[jon0844]

I'd change the seat covers. The bland mid-blue contributes to the clinical feel - the bright red on the otherwise near-identical SWT 777s gave a totally different, much more welcoming feel. Perhaps change the pink oblique to red on the Thameslink brand, then you'd have an excuse to do red seats. (Pink seats would be like back to FirstGroup hell! )



Having been on a full-and-standing Northern 195 a few times now the thing that makes the difference is the standbacks and much less the width of the seats, so I am inclined to agree, particularly given than 20m stock is wider than 24m stock. Narrow seats are theoretically a good idea, but if two people are sat there there's invariably a person overhanging a bit on the aisle side so you don't *actually* get the width.

Walking down a 387 is difficult because of the hard seat edges and arm rests. By comparison, you can 'brush' by people's arms and legs quite easily (not in a trying to hurt them way, I should add).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The other issue is that the 700's are a mixed fleet/go anywhere fleet (within their own routes of course) and you can't just have say, a "luxury" allocation of units for Bedford/Cambridge-Brighton only. Bit like the sub-fleets of the 375's and 377's, they have mixed seating and can turn up on virtually any working

 

[Bletchleyite]

Walking down a 387 is difficult because of the hard seat edges and arm rests. By comparison, you can 'brush' by people's arms and legs quite easily (not in a trying to hurt them way, I should add).

Personally I prefer to make contact with a bit of seat and not with another person who may not be desirous of that.

 

[Minstral25]

The other issue is that the 700's are a mixed fleet/go anywhere fleet (within their own routes of course) and you can't just have say, a "luxury" allocation of units for Bedford/Cambridge-Brighton only. Bit like the sub-fleets of the 375's and 377's, they have mixed seating and can turn up on virtually any working

The 700/1's are captive on the Bedford - Gatwick/Brighton, Peterborough - Horsham and Cambridge to Brighton routes and cannot go on any other routes due to length issues. These are the longest Thameslink routes so improvements could be made to 700/1 with those routes in mind.

The 377's were great on our route before being replaced by the 700s - mixed seating with good alternative sitting arrangements are great in 377's, not so in 700s.

The majority of passengers are doing 30 mins or less, so it’s right that the trains primarily cater for around this length of journey. It isn’t a “statistical anomaly”, IIRC typical usage was assessed around the time the trains were introduced (@Bald Rick will be able to confirm) so it was a known fact. Why would you discount those who only use the trains through the core?! I guarantee there are far more of those than there are people who commute from Bedford to London on the 700s.

In fact I’m one of them! My typical journey is London Bridge - St Pancras which they’re fine for. I also find the 700 seating fine for up to an hour or so, which must cover 99% of journeys. The total length of the routes is irrelevant to the useage case they’re designed for, in the same way as you wouldn’t expect Central Line trains to cater for the tiny % or passengers who travel from West Ruislip to Epping. It’s exactly the same concept with the 700s.

The point I was making is that the volume of journeys between Elephant/London Bridge and St Pancras sway the average journey length to make it much shorter. It is a technicality that sways the average and hence a statistical issue.

The majority of passengers heading north out of St Pancras towards Bedford and south from London Bridge towards Brighton are doing much longer journeys well over 30 minutes. The interior is unsuitable for those longer journeys and yet those passengers are paying for most of the cost of the provision of these units as they pay a much higher fare than zonal travellers in London.

Have you spent your hour long journey in a 700 crushed up to a large person in the seat next to you, with your legs forced akimbo because there is not enough leg room, or tried to sit with a young family going to Brighton beach when there are no facing seats available. These are key journeys these units should be capable of but are not.

 

[43066]

The point I was making is that the volume of journeys between Elephant/London Bridge and St Pancras sway the average journey length to make it much shorter. It is a technicality that sways the average and hence a statistical issue.

But they are still real passengers actually using the trains, so their journey length is as valid as that of longer distance travellers in calculating the average of all users.

The majority of passengers heading north out of St Pancras towards Bedford and south from London Bridge towards Brighton are doing much longer journeys well over 30 minutes. The interior is unsuitable for those longer journeys and yet those passengers are paying for most of the cost of the provision of these units as they pay a much higher fare than zonal travellers in London.

I’m not sure “majority” is correct even in that example. On the GTR outers many going North will be heading to St Albans or Harpenden, or Southbound for East Croydon and Gatwick Airport, all of for which are under 30 mins from central London. The interiors are fine in my experience for journeys up to an hour, albeit I’d agree the colour scheme is far too drab. If the identical trains were decorated differently I bet there wouldn’t be anything like as many complaints about how uncomfortable the seats are etc.

At the extreme ends, I’ll concede, if I commuted from Brighton I’d rather take a Southern Electrostar (but not one with ironing boards), if I lived in Bedford I’d rather take an EMR 360. All currently available options are preferable to 319s, however.

Have you spent your hour long journey in a 700 crushed up to a large person in the seat next to you, with your legs forced akimbo because there is not enough leg room, or tried to sit with a young family going to Brighton beach when there are no facing seats available. These are key journeys these units should be capable of but are not.

Yes I have. I’ve also done the same journey in non air conditioned 319s so I know how much more fit for purpose the 700s are!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Have you spent your hour long journey in a 700 crushed up to a large person in the seat next to you, with your legs forced akimbo because there is not enough leg room, or tried to sit with a young family going to Brighton beach when there are no facing seats available. These are key journeys these units should be capable of but are not.

Yes, I used to regularly commute on 700s when new, on the stoppers with large people either side or with my legs into the gangway. And I've regularly travelled from London to Brighton on a 700 crush-loaded with tourists and young families.

 

[The exile]

But they are still real passengers actually using the trains, so their journey length is as valid as that of longer distance travellers in calculating the average of

However, the length of their journeys (Or lack of it) needs to be taken into consideration and given weighting. To take the extreme, if my journey is City TL to Farringdon, the quality of the seat cushions or a 2% increase in the likelihood of my having to stand for the whole of my journey is unlikely to worry me. If I’m travelling from Bedford to Gatwick it will!

 

[swt_passenger]

The other issue is that the 700's are a mixed fleet/go anywhere fleet (within their own routes of course) and you can't just have say, a "luxury" allocation of units for Bedford/Cambridge-Brighton only. Bit like the sub-fleets of the 375's and 377's, they have mixed seating and can turn up on virtually any working

I believe the original Thameslink rolling stock ITT did include 3 different versions, there was an 8 car standard only presumed to be for the Wimbledon loop services. IIRC this was negotiated away by FCC acting on DfT’s behalf.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd change the seat covers. The bland mid-blue contributes to the clinical feel - the bright red on the otherwise near-identical SWT 777s gave a totally different, much more welcoming feel. Perhaps change the pink oblique to red on the Thameslink brand, then you'd have an excuse to do red seats. (Pink seats would be like back to FirstGroup hell! )



Having been on a full-and-standing Northern 195 a few times now the thing that makes the difference is the standbacks and much less the width of the seats, so I am inclined to agree, particularly given than 20m stock is wider than 24m stock. Narrow seats are theoretically a good idea, but if two people are sat there there's invariably a person overhanging a bit on the aisle side so you don't *actually* get the width.

Oh no, we've had enough of gaudy red surely !

 

[Islineclear3_1]

However, the length of their journeys (Or lack of it) needs to be taken into consideration and given weighting. To take the extreme, if my journey is City TL to Farringdon, the quality of the seat cushions or a 2% increase in the likelihood of my having to stand for the whole of my journey is unlikely to worry me. If I’m travelling from Bedford to Gatwick it will!

Who stands from Bedford to Gatwick?