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Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

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Class142sbad

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The coast road 'clean up' in Newcastle started today with Arriva and Go North East. Joint ticketing has also started today with mutal ticket acceptance between both operators.
Links to Arriva and Go North East.
The 306 (ANE), 307 (GNE), 308 (ANE) and 309 (GNE) will run up to every 5 Minutes along the coast road. However, the GNE X39 Haymarket - Cobalt peak time express will not be under the Coast road cleanup.
ANE: Arriva
GNE: Go Ahead
 
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1D54

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Seems next month that common sense has at last prevailed on the Leicester - Nuneaton service with Arriva and Stagecoach 'working together' and the result will be a service running every 15 minutes which should put a stop to the madness we have had for the last 12 years of the pair of them travelling up and down the A47 one behind the other.

Stagecoach 48L will become 148 and both companies are moving to St Margarets BS from the Haymarket BS.
 

Llandudno

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Seems next month that common sense has at last prevailed on the Leicester - Nuneaton service with Arriva and Stagecoach 'working together' and the result will be a service running every 15 minutes which should put a stop to the madness we have had for the last 12 years of the pair of them travelling up and down the A47 one behind the other.

Stagecoach 48L will become 148 and both companies are moving to St Margarets BS from the Haymarket BS.
I don’t suppose return/day tickets are interchangeable between the two operators though?
 

1D54

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I don’t suppose return/day tickets are interchangeable between the two operators though?
Arriva do a special 158 day ticket priced at £5,50 and Stagecoach do something similar and apparently they will accept each others tickets.
 

SSmith2009

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Seems next month that common sense has at last prevailed on the Leicester - Nuneaton service with Arriva and Stagecoach 'working together' and the result will be a service running every 15 minutes which should put a stop to the madness we have had for the last 12 years of the pair of them travelling up and down the A47 one behind the other.

Stagecoach 48L will become 148 and both companies are moving to St Margarets BS from the Haymarket BS.
now just the arriva X3 and Stagecoach X7 to have joined up ticketing and timetables
 

Andy Pacer

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I don’t suppose return/day tickets are interchangeable between the two operators though?

Information on the change, and ticketing options is available here:

But specifically
"You’ll be able to use any valid Arriva Adult or Child Day, Week, or 4-Week ticket for travel on Stagecoach route 148, simply show your ticket to the driver as you board."
 

WAB

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Arriva is to be sold.

BERLIN, March 31 (Reuters) - Deutsche Bahn DBN.UL is working on preparations for the sale of its Arriva regional passenger transport subsidiary, said the German state-owned railway operator's chief financial officer.

CFO Levin Holle added that the state-owned railway operator was not currently planning to sell its Schenker logistics subsidiary, which brought in what Deutsche Bahn said was a record revenue of 23 billion euros ($25.55 billion) in 2021.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/deutsche-bahn-preparing-for-sale-of-arriva-subsidiary-cfo
 

WAB

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Who will want it?

Will it be sold as one lot, or broken up into manageable units?
They're probably more likely to get a good price (or indeed any sale at all) if they split it up.

I can't see too many firms lining up to buy up the UK bus side wholesale. I suspect it would be piecemeal, e.g., Transdev or EYMS taking on the Whitby operations, Midland Classic taking on Derby etc. I'm not particularly familiar with much of the Arriva operation but apart from London, none of the subsidiaries seem particularly strong.

On the rail side, Chiltern and the LO concession would probably find takers, but CrossCountry does not seem to be particularly lucrative and comes with performance risks, and Grand Central needs a fleet renewal and new access rights in close order whilst not performing well financially. Maybe someone will take the rail side on, but bin off Grand Central and pull out of the next XC contract which renews in the autumn?
 

MotCO

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I've just looked at the Arriva website and they list their bus areas as:

Beds and Bucks
Greenline
Herts and Essex
Kent and Surrey
Midlands
North East
North West
Wales
Yorkshire

(plus London obviously, but not listed)

Would any of these attract buyers for the whole division, without falling foul of the Monopolies Commission? Or would other operators hope that Arriva just close down to avoid having to pay purchase price, pension liabilities, TUPE etc, and just pick up as many routes as possible?
 

WAB

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I've just looked at the Arriva website and they list their bus areas as:

Beds and Bucks
Greenline
Herts and Essex
Kent and Surrey
Midlands
North East
North West
Wales
Yorkshire

(plus London obviously, but not listed)

Would any of these attract buyers for the whole division, without falling foul of the Monopolies Commission? Or would other operators hope that Arriva just close down to avoid having to pay purchase price, pension liabilities, TUPE etc, and just pick up as many routes as possible?
Yorkshire might attract the attention of Go Ahead, as may a few other places where they aren't already there. Maybe Stagecoach too, but they don't seem to be very expansionist at the moment. Somewhere like North Wales will be lucky to get anyone other than independents picking off the carcass, frankly.
 

overthewater

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I wouldn;t rule out McGills buses being interested in something. Stagecoach can't really buy most areas as that would lead to Monopolies Commission? First is out of running in Yorkshire aswell.
 

A0

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I've just looked at the Arriva website and they list their bus areas as:

Beds and Bucks
Greenline
Herts and Essex
Kent and Surrey
Midlands
North East
North West
Wales
Yorkshire

(plus London obviously, but not listed)

Would any of these attract buyers for the whole division, without falling foul of the Monopolies Commission? Or would other operators hope that Arriva just close down to avoid having to pay purchase price, pension liabilities, TUPE etc, and just pick up as many routes as possible?

I suspect the Competition and Markets Authority (the Monopolies Commission disappeared some years ago), will take a fairly relaxed view given the state of the UK bus operators market. If one operator makes a bid, they'll ask the other key players if they have any objections, and if they don't, then it'll probably get approved without question.

They'll only investigate if its detrimental to the market, but if the other key players don't object, it won't be viewed as detrimental.
 

Fleetmaster

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I can see a private equity group wanting to buy the whole UK bus group, then ruthlessly disposing of maybe up to half of it, depot by depot perhaps, knowing that these bits are so weak they are unlikely to be attractive to big rivals.

The remainder can then be reinvested in, with new systems and buses, and rebranded. By then, it might be so small but solidly profitable, it could be sold to a larger group without much competition concerns.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Sorry but I think people are being a bit parochial. Arriva is much more than just the UK. It has operations across Europe - it operates trains and buses and even ferries (water buses).

DB will not want to be wasting time dissecting the business, OpCo by OpCo or depot by depot, or even country by country so if people are gonna start the parlour game of going "oooh, I could see Selby going to Transdev"..... well, it's not gonna happen at this point in time. DB will want a clean sale.

For who that might be, you need to look at the recent sales of Go Ahead and Stagecoach. That's where the market is. Sorry if that's a bit blunt but I can't see any fracturing of Arriva imminently.
 
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Man of Kent

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DB will not want to be wasting time dissecting the business, OpCo by OpCo or depot by depot, or even country by country
That last method is exactly what they have done over the last year or so. Portugal, Sweden, Serbia all sold, and Poland divested except trains.

I believe the Reuters' report has come from a line in the DB Annual Report, issued at the end of last week (only in German so far, English version to follow later), which said something like "We expect to prepare Arriva for sale". But then they said much the same thing circa 2016, and at intervals since.

If local rumours are true, then closure of more parts of the UK business is a real possibility. That they have told the staff at Northfleet that they have not bid for the new Fastrack contract sort of emphasises that investment is still a bit sporadic at best (see also dropping out of ZEBRA schemes in Milton Keynes and Stevenage....).
 

WAB

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Sorry but I think people are being a bit parochial. Arriva is much more than just the UK. It has operations across Europe - it operates trains and buses and even ferries (water buses).

DB will not want to be wasting time dissecting the business, OpCo by OpCo or depot by depot, or even country by country so if people are gonna start the parlour game of going "oooh, I could see Selby going to Transdev"..... well, it's not gonna happen at this point in time. DB will want a clean sale.

For who that might be, you need to look at the recent sales of Go Ahead and Stagecoach. That's where the market is. Sorry if that's a bit blunt but I can't see any fracturing of Arriva imminently.
Well this is RailUKforums after all :lol:

They've been trying for a clean sale for donkey's years with no success; there are probably too many dud business units to make it particularly attractive. Splitting it up by subsidiary might at least offer the opportunity for a focused binning and retrenching.

If local rumours are true, then closure of more parts of the UK business is a real possibility. That they have told the staff at Northfleet that they have not bid for the new Fastrack contract sort of emphasises that investment is still a bit sporadic at best (see also dropping out of ZEBRA schemes in Milton Keynes and Stevenage....).
See also Grand Central's fleet issues and general stagnation - even First managed to bring in an HST or two pdq when their 180s gave up. No-one seems to be willing to put in the time/money whilst the business is up in the air.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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That last method is exactly what they have done over the last year or so. Portugal, Sweden, Serbia all sold, and Poland divested except trains.
Fair point on country by country, but that's been generally a slimming down to get to this point here. They might divest countries but is it really going to get to depot level as some suggest?
I believe the Reuters' report has come from a line in the DB Annual Report, issued at the end of last week (only in German so far, English version to follow later), which said something like "We expect to prepare Arriva for sale". But then they said much the same thing circa 2016, and at intervals since.
I've criticised DB before for the paralysis and decline of Arriva through not having a clear strategy for Arriva (or Schenker for that matter); there's been a lack of direction (and capital). They've toyed around with outright sales or an independent public offering (floating it separately) and the indecision has been a contributory factor in Arriva's decline.
If local rumours are true, then closure of more parts of the UK business is a real possibility. That they have told the staff at Northfleet that they have not bid for the new Fastrack contract sort of emphasises that investment is still a bit sporadic at best (see also dropping out of ZEBRA schemes in Milton Keynes and Stevenage....).
Now that I don't doubt. I'd suggested that, post the announcement of the closure of Oswestry, Winsford, and Macc that I could point at a number of depots that are extremely vulnerable. I don't like to speculate on individual depots etc (you never know who's on this board reading that people think they could lose their job) but would suspect at least a couple in Midlands and in Southern Counties would be under review.

That's not helped by First turning the screw in places like Colchester!
Well this is RailUKforums after all :lol:
Don't get your point... I mean it is RailUKforums after all :lol:

See also Grand Central's fleet issues and general stagnation - even First managed to bring in an HST or two pdq when their 180s gave up. No-one seems to be willing to put in the time/money whilst the business is up in the air.
It's been well documented about the struggle that Arriva has had in getting investment funds from DB and the need to develop the business.

Arriva was far from perfect in its original existence though it was forged out of British Bus and that had its own issues, and then bought some more with MTL! However, it was a reasonably competent business and that continued until the DB purchase and for a while afterwards even if the focus on margins at the expense of everything else was seeing some pronounced local declines/exits. However, since c2014/5, the rot really set in with sporadic investment (as @Man of Kent said) and when you see how far it's slipped in even their powerhouse firms.
 

Statto

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Now that I don't doubt. I'd suggested that, post the announcement of the closure of Oswestry, Winsford, and Macc that I could point at a number of depots that are extremely vulnerable. I don't like to speculate on individual depots etc (you never know who's on this board reading that people think they could lose their job) but would suspect at least a couple in Midlands and in Southern Counties would be under review.
Agreed, as you said on a previous post, the FirstGroup thread on speculation on what First were going to buy or sell a decade ago was completely ridiculous & completely tiresome & 99.9% wrong, it was worse than football transfer gossip.

I'd rather wait for official announcements from companies than some yahoo poster making things up as they go along. As you say there are real jobs on the line and you don't know who is reading the forum.
 
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Snex

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Arriva was far from perfect in its original existence though it was forged out of British Bus and that had its own issues, and then bought some more with MTL! However, it was a reasonably competent business and that continued until the DB purchase and for a while afterwards even if the focus on margins at the expense of everything else was seeing some pronounced local declines/exits. However, since c2014/5, the rot really set in with sporadic investment (as @Man of Kent said) and when you see how far it's slipped in even their powerhouse firms.

Not sure I agree with that mind. Arriva was an absolute shambles in the North East before DB took over in terms of investment. Can't comment on other areas, but from there were 4 buses bought between 2001 and 2005 and apart from the Overdrive investment it was pretty lacking at best and it didn't help that nothing got refurbished either so there was stuff from the Pre Arriva days going about 10 years later. Not to mention the number of depots closing at the same time including Loftus which was quite a big one at the time.

Contrast that to GoNorthEast which was launching it's Gold services with air con etc they were night and day apart. Nowadays, as much as there's been a lack of investment at least the buses are modern. The Vectas, Scania N113/L113s and Optare Prismas, in particular, were in an unacceptable state in 2009 but still on flagship routes.

DB massively turned it around imo. It's Deja Vu now mind.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Not sure I agree with that mind. Arriva was an absolute shambles in the North East before DB took over in terms of investment. Can't comment on other areas, but from there were 4 buses bought between 2001 and 2005 and apart from the Overdrive investment it was pretty lacking at best and it didn't help that nothing got refurbished either so there was stuff from the Pre Arriva days going about 10 years later. Not to mention the number of depots closing at the same time including Loftus which was quite a big one at the time.

Contrast that to GoNorthEast which was launching it's Gold services with air con etc they were night and day apart. Nowadays, as much as there's been a lack of investment at least the buses are modern. The Vectas, Scania N113/L113s and Optare Prismas, in particular, were in an unacceptable state in 2009 but still on flagship routes.

DB massively turned it around imo. It's Deja Vu now mind.
I was talking about Arriva in the round, not OpCo by OpCo.

I have commented on Arriva North East at some length in the past. Sadly, the late Steve Noble perhaps had his motives (ahem!) for putting the brake on new vehicle order... It was only in the Jonathan May era did new vehicle intakes recommence and under the Featham tenure, things were looking up. However, on a group level, investment was fairly consistent but since 2014/5, there's been a dearth of new vehicles. Allied to that has been an acceleration of service cuts, the launch of the appalling website, half decent marketing initiatives given up at the altar of painting the fleet in one, homogenous scheme, an erosion of service quality, etc

Worth noting that the former North East Bus fleet had a similar feast and famine approach before Arriva so nothing from 1987-90 and very limited investment up to 1993 (27 vehicles IIRC in 6 years) so there was suddenly a splurge of new vehicles in 1993-7 yet still requiring some fairly chunky new vehicle intakes in 1998-2000 under Arriva.
 

Snex

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I was talking about Arriva in the round, not OpCo by OpCo.

I have commented on Arriva North East at some length in the past. Sadly, the late Steve Noble perhaps had his motives (ahem!) for putting the brake on new vehicle order... It was only in the Jonathan May era did new vehicle intakes recommence and under the Featham tenure, things were looking up. However, on a group level, investment was fairly consistent but since 2014/5, there's been a dearth of new vehicles. Allied to that has been an acceleration of service cuts, the launch of the appalling website, half decent marketing initiatives given up at the altar of painting the fleet in one, homogenous scheme, an erosion of service quality, etc

Worth noting that the former North East Bus fleet had a similar feast and famine approach before Arriva so nothing from 1987-90 and very limited investment up to 1993 (27 vehicles IIRC in 6 years) so there was suddenly a splurge of new vehicles in 1993-7 yet still requiring some fairly chunky new vehicle intakes in 1998-2000 under Arriva.

Yeah fair comments, must admit I don't know too much about the rest of the company so couldn't say much. Can't disagree with any of that. Bus travel up here across the board is poor lately, it's more of a competition of the who's not the worst lately between Stagecoach North East, Go North East and Arriva North East as all 3 have serious problems.
 

Simon75

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If you look at areas like Winsford/Northwich/Crewe and Macclesfield , Arriva had lost interest about 10 years , maybe longer, with service cuts and lack of investment (not only in buses but depots (Winsford and Macclesfield need money spent on each site)
 

Robertj21a

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If you look at areas like Winsford/Northwich/Crewe and Macclesfield , Arriva had lost interest about 10 years , maybe longer, with service cuts and lack of investment (not only in buses but depots (Winsford and Macclesfield need money spent on each site)
Isn't that likely to be caused by the relative lack of opportunity for profitable routes across those areas?
 

Fleetmaster

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I think Arriva UK bus just made very poor choices. It's telling they were the only big group interested in former London Country depots, which in hindsight was a wrong choice. Too rich, not congested enough, and tough rail competition.

It's a profitable market for independents, but not the crown jewels I think Arriva thought it would be. Now probably more of a millstone, as they ponder third or even fourth generation investment in these areas, where being cheap and flooding it with the last few thousand diesel buses ever made, will only just make it harder to sell in ten years time.

The sort of entities that are in the market for big groups, they will spot these inherent weaknesses easily. I can certainly see Arriva being forced by lack of offers to start selling off parts like this as going concerns to the right kind of buyer (management/employee buyout?) until such time as the remainder is attractive to a new entrant. Which it may never be, given by then it might be only the sixth largest bus group. Then you're into competition concerns, so of course selling it of piecemeal becomes even more attractive.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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If you look at areas like Winsford/Northwich/Crewe and Macclesfield , Arriva had lost interest about 10 years , maybe longer, with service cuts and lack of investment (not only in buses but depots (Winsford and Macclesfield need money spent on each site)
They were still rolling out the Sapphire concept on the 38 and 130 in 2015, refurbing deckers that were only about 3 or 4 years old, and they did get a number of Solo SRs additionally in 2012?

The reality is that Cheshire is part of Arriva North West, and the Merseyside ops will always get the lions' share of any expenditure. Seem to recall that after those 2012 investments (and in readiness for PSVAR legislation), they concentrated on putting new fleet into Merseyside (seem to recall a lot of Pulsars, and a big batch of e400s for St Helens). In fact, it was a bit of a surprise when they put new Mellor Stratas into Northwich!
 
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