Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[LOL The Irony]

In fact, it was a bit of a surprise when they put new Mellor Stratas into Northwich!

To be fair, Northwich (and Macclesfield) had several Darts from the turn of the millennium, so their replacement was inevitable.

 

[duncombec]

There is much to be said for Arriva's service quality, but you have to wonder how disillusioned the staff, or how low the quality control of the marketing team, when you look at some of the content on the website.

The quote below is from a service change notification posted yesterday, at https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/ware-service-changes-april-2023:

From Sunday 16th April 2023 the following changes will be made to services in Ware.

Service 251
Timetable changes will be made, with some peak journeys having their frequencies slightly altered.

Service 401
Some minor timetable changes will be made.

Service 403
The Frequency of the service will now be hourly run.

The quality of the entire announcement leaves a lot to be desired, with the 251 wording particularly strange (how can journeys have their frequency altered?), but the 403 defies words.

This all before we get to the fact that not a single one of these services is "in Ware", but are operated from Ware depot. How many passengers in Waltham Cross or Welwyn Garden City will look at the headline "Ware Service Changes" and expect it to involve their bus?

 

[Llandudno]

There is much to be said for Arriva's service quality, but you have to wonder how disillusioned the staff, or how low the quality control of the marketing team, when you look at some of the content on the website.

The quote below is from a service change notification posted yesterday, at https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/ware-service-changes-april-2023:


The quality of the entire announcement leaves a lot to be desired, with the 251 wording particularly strange (how can journeys have their frequency altered?), but the 403 defies words.

This all before we get to the fact that not a single one of these services is "in Ware", but are operated from Ware depot. How many passengers in Waltham Cross or Welwyn Garden City will look at the headline "Ware Service Changes" and expect it to involve their bus?

do Arriva have a marketing team…?

 

[A0]

do Arriva have a marketing team…?

That's a rather silly, snide comment.

I take it you're an expert in Marketing and are therefore suitably qualified to be able to express such an opinion ?

 

[Deerfold]

That's a rather silly, snide comment.

I take it you're an expert in Marketing and are therefore suitably qualified to be able to express such an opinion ?

If they have a marketing team, they're clearly fairly poor or are not involved with important announcements to passengers such as this.

I don't think you have to be an expert to see poorly written summaries and headlines that don't refer to what's in the body of the announcement.

And you don't need a silly, snide comment about someone's qualifications if they point that out.

 

[Bristol LHS]

I think Arriva UK bus just made very poor choices. It's telling they were the only big group interested in former London Country depots, which in hindsight was a wrong choice. Too rich, not congested enough, and tough rail competition.

It's a profitable market for independents, but not the crown jewels I think Arriva thought it would be. Now probably more of a millstone, as they ponder third or even fourth generation investment in these areas, where being cheap and flooding it with the last few thousand diesel buses ever made, will only just make it harder to sell in ten years time.

Yet Go-Ahead have managed to make a go of Crawley (where Arriva quit) and Stagecoach seem to have found a use for Arriva’s old Guildford depot (including running some of their old routes).

I agree Arriva have made poor choices, I guess I’m saying one of them has been discarding some London Country territory that other groups seem to manage to make a go of.

 

[A0]

Yet Go-Ahead have managed to make a go of Crawley (where Arriva quit) and Stagecoach seem to have found a use for Arriva’s old Guildford depot (including running some of their old routes).

I agree Arriva have made poor choices, I guess I’m saying one of them has been discarding some London Country territory that other groups seem to manage to make a go of.

Though in the case Guildford that was a split Alder Valley / London Country town back in NBC days.

Other ex London Country areas have struggled regardless of who's operated it - e.g. First Group have Slough, which was acquired by Bee Line from Luton & District after L&D took over London Country NW.

Blazefield progressively reduced the size of the Sovereign operation, selling some of it to Centrebus, who subsequently retreated and eventually selling up in Stevenage to Arriva - which the Competion Commission allowed through because none of the other major groups had any objection.

If Arriva were that weak or poor at running the service you might have expected somebody else to at least 'have a go' where it neighboured their area, but that's not happened. It hasn't happened further out e.g. in the old United Counties area where Stagecoach are in Bedford and Northampton and Arriva in Luton and Milton Keynes - but Stagecoach have shown no inclination to take on Arriva in those areas.

 

[Robertj21a]

Though in the case Guildford that was a split Alder Valley / London Country town back in NBC days.

Other ex London Country areas have struggled regardless of who's operated it - e.g. First Group have Slough, which was acquired by Bee Line from Luton & District after L&D took over London Country NW.

Blazefield progressively reduced the size of the Sovereign operation, selling some of it to Centrebus, who subsequently retreated and eventually selling up in Stevenage to Arriva - which the Competion Commission allowed through because none of the other major groups had any objection.

If Arriva were that weak or poor at running the service you might have expected somebody else to at least 'have a go' where it neighboured their area, but that's not happened. It hasn't happened further out e.g. in the old United Counties area where Stagecoach are in Bedford and Northampton and Arriva in Luton and Milton Keynes - but Stagecoach have shown no inclination to take on Arriva in those areas.

Yes, agreed. Arriva are often targeted for something that other operators would not handle any better. The old London Country areas are hardly ideal for bus operation - too many cars and too much congestion.
If these areas were good for bus operators then competitors would have appeared over the many years.
Crawley benefits from having Gatwick Airport on the doorstep - and the old Arriva Crawley really needed a change of management in order to survive.

 

[1D54]

A lot of people have spent years complaining about Arriva Midlands in Leicester but i would simply say to them, be careful what you wish for because they will be sorely missed when / if they cease operating in the city.

 

[A0]

Yes, agreed. Arriva are often targeted for something that other operators would not handle any better. The old London Country areas are hardly ideal for bus operation - too many cars and too much congestion.

They weren't that good in NBC days. IMO the rot dates back to the 1930s and the formation of the London Transport Passenger Board and their monopoly on an area up to 30 miles outside London.

It saddled those areas with an operator that really wasn't "fit for purpose", was slow to change, slow to adapt and worse prevented other operators from developing services as well.

Would Eastern National have been a better provider for Herts & Essex than LT from the 1930's ? I think they would. Same for Thames Valley in Bucks and Surrey or Southdown further round.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For who that might be, you need to look at the recent sales of Go Ahead and Stagecoach. That's where the market is. Sorry if that's a bit blunt but I can't see any fracturing of Arriva imminently.

If- and it still seems a big if- Arriva gets sold, my money will be on a management buyout funded by private equity. Which is basically what Abellio just did.

What happens after is open for debate, but as you say DB aren’t going to sell it piecemeal.

 

[MotCO]

If- and it still seems a big if- Arriva gets sold, my money will be on a management buyout funded by private equity. Which is basically what Abellio just did.

What happens after is open for debate, but as you say DB aren’t going to sell it piecemeal.

That approach makes sense, but it will probably need a large cash injection to update fleets etc. Maybe this could be raised by selling off some of the subsidiaries.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To be fair, Northwich (and Macclesfield) had several Darts from the turn of the millennium, so their replacement was inevitable.

Yes, but perhaps not with new vehicles. I was thinking some cascaded Solos rather than new stuff

Though in the case Guildford that was a split Alder Valley / London Country town back in NBC days.

Other ex London Country areas have struggled regardless of who's operated it - e.g. First Group have Slough, which was acquired by Bee Line from Luton & District after L&D took over London Country NW.

Blazefield progressively reduced the size of the Sovereign operation, selling some of it to Centrebus, who subsequently retreated and eventually selling up in Stevenage to Arriva - which the Competion Commission allowed through because none of the other major groups had any objection.

If Arriva were that weak or poor at running the service you might have expected somebody else to at least 'have a go' where it neighboured their area, but that's not happened. It hasn't happened further out e.g. in the old United Counties area where Stagecoach are in Bedford and Northampton and Arriva in Luton and Milton Keynes - but Stagecoach have shown no inclination to take on Arriva in those areas.

The fact is that there's probably a decent niche to be developed by one company, as demonstrated by Go Ahead at Crawley and they have expanded into the former Arriva areas to the north as well. They've done a decent job there and there's probably other areas that have potential to do better than currently under Arriva (though I'd challenge anyone to turn Harlow into a showcase operation).

So for all of those places like Hemel or Hatfield, there's probably a business to be had but for someone to go in competitively, it would be mutually assured destruction!

 

[A0]

Yes, but perhaps not with new vehicles. I was thinking some cascaded Solos rather than new stuff


The fact is that there's probably a decent niche to be developed by one company, as demonstrated by Go Ahead at Crawley and they have expanded into the former Arriva areas to the north as well. They've done a decent job there and there's probably other areas that have potential to do better than currently under Arriva (though I'd challenge anyone to turn Harlow into a showcase operation).

So for all of those places like Hemel or Hatfield, there's probably a business to be had but for someone to go in competitively, it would be mutually assured destruction!

Hatfield has Uno who built up in that area when Sovereign sold out their St Albans operations to Centrebus who then retreated. No doubt the presence of the university helps Uno's passenger numbers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hatfield has Uno who built up in that area when Sovereign sold out their St Albans operations to Centrebus who then retreated. No doubt the presence of the university helps Uno's passenger numbers.

Yeah, I wrote and sent and then immediately thought of Uno who have indeed crafted a nice business. There was always some better parts of the old London Country (and so Arriva) and some more challenged areas and for different reason but there are some areas in Arriva's home counties operations that will have potential. I've had reason to visit Stevenage several times in the last year, and a more dispiriting operation is hard to imagine...until you head to Harlow.

I've said it before that it was interesting how First's travails were front and centre with enthusiasts, and yet very little heed was taken in how Arriva were contracting.

 

[childwallblues]

The Arriva depot at Winsford is now closed and the first transfers reported are B7 4102/06/07 to Chester.

 

[Jase_in_CW]

It’s farewell to Arriva in Mid Cheshire. They made some mistakes but also tried to make the area work.

At times they had for example:

Northwich- Winsford up to 6 an hour

Hourly Northwich- Sandbach introduced

Circulars linking different parts of Northwich

Hourly Winsford industrial estate service

Half hourly 37 and 31 from Winsford

Hourly journeys into Davenham, Moulton and Kingsmead villages

Crewe- Congleton on branded half hourly double deckers

Sapphire spec on 130s

All these far in excess of Crosville/North Western they inherited. Plus, WiFi, USB ports and decent seats means they were a decent operating company. However, the reductions in council funding and undercutting by basic low cost operators see them off.

I, as a passenger now have to travel on D&G (although First, Stagecoach Warrington’s Own have acquired a few routes) with rattly buses, crappy seats and no modern infrastructure. This is not progress.

 

[Martin1988]

I rode the very last journey on the 38 towards Crewe from Haslington late last night (well early this morning).

2932 (MX09 EKM) was the vehicle that did the honours. I was the final passenger to alight.

 

[A0]

I think Arriva UK bus just made very poor choices. It's telling they were the only big group interested in former London Country depots, which in hindsight was a wrong choice. Too rich, not congested enough, and tough rail competition.

It's a profitable market for independents, but not the crown jewels I think Arriva thought it would be. Now probably more of a millstone, as they ponder third or even fourth generation investment in these areas, where being cheap and flooding it with the last few thousand diesel buses ever made, will only just make it harder to sell in ten years time.

The sort of entities that are in the market for big groups, they will spot these inherent weaknesses easily. I can certainly see Arriva being forced by lack of offers to start selling off parts like this as going concerns to the right kind of buyer (management/employee buyout?) until such time as the remainder is attractive to a new entrant. Which it may never be, given by then it might be only the sixth largest bus group. Then you're into competition concerns, so of course selling it of piecemeal becomes even more attractive.

Arriva as such weren't "interested" in the old London Country depots - they actually inherited them as part of the formation of the company, when Cowie Group bought British Bus.

British Bus comprised at that time of the ex London Country SE, SW, NW (by virtue of NW having been bought by Luton & District) but it also had other operations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Bus

The only ex LCBS operation Arriva actually bought was the Stevenage operations of Sovereign when Blazefield wanted out.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yeah, I wrote and sent and then immediately thought of Uno who have indeed crafted a nice business. There was always some better parts of the old London Country (and so Arriva) and some more challenged areas and for different reason but there are some areas in Arriva's home counties operations that will have potential. I've had reason to visit Stevenage several times in the last year, and a more dispiriting operation is hard to imagine...until you head to Harlow.

I've said it before that it was interesting how First's travails were front and centre with enthusiasts, and yet very little heed was taken in how Arriva were contracting.

Even now you hear the tired old "WorstGroup" and comments suggesting some people think First is still in the Lockhead era, yet the general awfulness of Arriva is largely ignored.

 

[Fleetmaster]

Arriva as such weren't "interested" in the old London Country depots - they actually inherited them as part of the formation of the company, when Cowie Group bought British Bus.

British Bus comprised at that time of the ex London Country SE, SW, NW (by virtue of NW having been bought by Luton & District) but it also had other operations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Bus

The only ex LCBS operation Arriva actually bought was the Stevenage operations of Sovereign when Blazefield wanted out.

Obviously, but for all practical purposes (and interestingly in Arriva's own eyes) they consider the history of the British Bus Group to be their bus ancestry. Their errors in strategy and acquisitions are thus Arriva's. They quite deliberately, for example, chose not to divest of what was, post merger, a huge chunk of the SE bus market, if they had foreseen the limited potential of the former LCBS empire, certainly in the richer areas.

Perhaps there was nobody out there willing to buy it from them? The other big groups would have likely has the same monopoly concerns if they took the whole lot on, and smaller groups or employee buyouts probably couldn't afford Arriva's asking price, with the group at that time already beholden to shareholders to maximize value of assets as a transport plc, especially recently acquired ones.

It is definitely fun to think what Cowie might have become had they stuck to the presumably far more profitable inner/suburban London bus business. Grey Green's 24 was a true pioneer. A pleasure to ride on, as both enthusiast and London Transport customer (far more enjoyable and practical than desending into the soot stained hot house that was the Tube).

Although never a customer, Sovereign also always struck me as pretty innovative and forward thinking, and Stevenage was certainly more ripe for development than other richer towns.

Slapping two yellow stripes on London buses was a little less inspiring, but a good effort (especially the front cantrail) under the constraints of the godawful 80% red rule.

The Arriva brand was in comparison, just so insipid. Rotten buses trundling around with dirty marks where the big ovals had been ripped off because of yet another London red rule change (I always presumed, but maybe not?), was just, frankly, disgusting.

It's tough to pinpoint Arriva's actual hey day. New DAFs in Costswold cream were nice, but hardly stood out against the competition, be that corporate or independent.

 

[M803UYA]

Obviously, but for all practical purposes (and interestingly in Arriva's own eyes) they consider the history of the British Bus Group to be their bus ancestry. Their errors in strategy and acquisitions are thus Arriva's. They quite deliberately, for example, chose not to divest of what was, post merger, a huge chunk of the SE bus market, if they had foreseen the limited potential of the former LCBS empire, certainly in the richer areas.

As someone who worked for Southern Counties I never understood why the old Maidstone & District operations couldn't be made profitable. It always was under management ownership - and given the population density and the levels of deprivation in the Medway Towns it just goes to show how badly mismanaged Arriva has been.

It's an organisation which spent a lot attracting 'the best talent' yet failed to provide them with the tools to do their jobs. Arriva had no plan on how to integrate these new people into a business. It was a classic example of a company employing the bait and switch tactic of 'just getting new talent in to buy more time' It has to be why people join Arriva, do a year and leave, or stay there permanently and settle into mediocrity. People who remain loyal to Arriva are continually shafted by the company. In Southern Counties mid 2015 they increased the numbers of people in the head office, but there was nowhere for those new people to park their cars. The wide spread of the operation required a lot of travel to the furthest flung parts if you were to do your job properly. That kind of makes a car fairly essential to your role. The team at Colchester were amongst the best I've come across, but they do not receive the tools, or the vehicles they require. First has smelt blood and unusually for them competes very hard in Colchester chasing turnover.

When Leicester received a large batch of Enviro 400 MMCs in 2016, it freed up the older DAF/VDL DB250 East Lancs Myllennium Lowlanders. These 14/15 year old buses then arrived in Kent as the great white hope of improved reliability. The last of them didn't make it to Maidstone under it's own power - it had to be towed down by a recovery truck. Two of the batch did see immediate use, the remainder were parked up the back of the depot with the old DAF/Alexander ALX 400s which broke down daily despite being repeatedly sent out. This was enough for the Engineering Director to tender his resignation after 6 months in the job. The new HR director lasted just three months before she resigned.

The only person making money in my eyes was Mick Gould Commercials, whose fleet of American big rig recovery wagons were on speed dial and were guaranteed at least one tow in daily from Arriva Southern Counties fleet of unfit double deck buses.

Why does Stagecoach make more profit in rural East Kent than Arriva does in the highly populated Medway Towns? Why does Arriva fail to reinvest in it's killer services? Look at the 101 for instance. It's a service which is highly profitable and should receive regular investment in new vehicles, with the ones coming off being filtered down to the other services in the company. Yet it had the Sapphire buses in 2014 and nothing since. The same applies to the 82 in Maidstone. Yet it did receive 2012 Citaros and have a replacement of Enviro 200 MMCs in 2017. It is now 2023....

When the likes of Nu Venture can run a more modern and better presented fleet than Arriva, and seemingly make money doing so it just goes to show how far back Arriva has declined. Any new owner is going to need to invest heavily in newer more reliable vehicles. And the issues Southern Counties have are repeated across the Arriva group. I now reside in South Yorkshire on the border of West Yorkshire - and the Arriva fleet here is in a disgusting state. How on earth anyone thinks it's acceptable to send vehicles out in such poor condition defeats me. I guess the people working there are so worn down they have stopped caring. Certainly the drivers have had enough as evidenced by their 6 week strike last year.

The entire mindset in Arriva has to change. It's been this poorly run since deregulation. In Buses magazine back in 1997, John Cash had a series of articles which chronicled his working life in the industry. The last of these, in the June edition recalled his time running C-Line in the early 1990s. My experience of Arriva pretty much mirrored his experiences of 25 years before. Whilst Firstgroup did at least try to improve vehicle standards with a high specification interior, Blazefield innovated with the 36 buses, Stagecoach following with 'Gold' and a long, hard look at how it ran buses and made big strides in organically growing their bus operations, Arriva's contribution to the modern bus world has been a phone app.... It only introduced Max and Sapphire long after others did. Even First reversed their policy of remote central micro management and have reaped the rewards of empowering their local management and investing in new vehicles.

 

[Fleetmaster]

As someone who worked for Southern Counties I never understood why the old Maidstone & District operations couldn't be made profitable. It always was under management ownership - and given the population density and the levels of deprivation in the Medway Towns it just goes to show how badly mismanaged Arriva has been.

It's an organisation which spent a lot attracting 'the best talent' yet failed to provide them with the tools to do their jobs. Arriva had no plan on how to integrate these new people into a business. It was a classic example of a company employing the bait and switch tactic of 'just getting new talent in to buy more time' It has to be why people join Arriva, do a year and leave, or stay there permanently and settle into mediocrity. People who remain loyal to Arriva are continually shafted by the company. In Southern Counties mid 2015 they increased the numbers of people in the head office, but there was nowhere for those new people to park their cars. The wide spread of the operation required a lot of travel to the furthest flung parts if you were to do your job properly. That kind of makes a car fairly essential to your role. The team at Colchester were amongst the best I've come across, but they do not receive the tools, or the vehicles they require. First has smelt blood and unusually for them competes very hard in Colchester chasing turnover.

When Leicester received a large batch of Enviro 400 MMCs in 2016, it freed up the older DAF/VDL DB250 East Lancs Myllennium Lowlanders. These 14/15 year old buses then arrived in Kent as the great white hope of improved reliability. The last of them didn't make it to Maidstone under it's own power - it had to be towed down by a recovery truck. Two of the batch did see immediate use, the remainder were parked up the back of the depot with the old DAF/Alexander ALX 400s which broke down daily despite being repeatedly sent out. This was enough for the Engineering Director to tender his resignation after 6 months in the job. The new HR director lasted just three months before she resigned.

The only person making money in my eyes was Mick Gould Commercials, whose fleet of American big rig recovery wagons were on speed dial and were guaranteed at least one tow in daily from Arriva Southern Counties fleet of unfit double deck buses.

Why does Stagecoach make more profit in rural East Kent than Arriva does in the highly populated Medway Towns? Why does Arriva fail to reinvest in it's killer services? Look at the 101 for instance. It's a service which is highly profitable and should receive regular investment in new vehicles, with the ones coming off being filtered down to the other services in the company. Yet it had the Sapphire buses in 2014 and nothing since. The same applies to the 82 in Maidstone. Yet it did receive 2012 Citaros and have a replacement of Enviro 200 MMCs in 2017. It is now 2023....

When the likes of Nu Venture can run a more modern and better presented fleet than Arriva, and seemingly make money doing so it just goes to show how far back Arriva has declined. Any new owner is going to need to invest heavily in newer more reliable vehicles. And the issues Southern Counties have are repeated across the Arriva group. I now reside in South Yorkshire on the border of West Yorkshire - and the Arriva fleet here is in a disgusting state. How on earth anyone thinks it's acceptable to send vehicles out in such poor condition defeats me. I guess the people working there are so worn down they have stopped caring. Certainly the drivers have had enough as evidenced by their 6 week strike last year.

For a start, it never made sense to create such a large division like Southern Counties. Baffling. But the smaller scale Maidstone and District area shows where they went wrong, presumably replicated right across most former London Country and London commuter Town areas.

Investment in flagship routes like the 101 never really pays off, since the buses simply get stuck in the same traffic that is happily endured by most car bound commuters/shoppers. And even in places like Maidstone, the less well off areas where routes like the 82 should be making a killing, suffer from the fact even these people can either afford cars or otherwise have access to cars.

The benefits system means that most Lidl shoppers can afford to pay for taxis, which aren't that much more expensive if you need to pay for a whole family worth of bus tickets and suffer the inconvenience of using the bus, which even now, is bafflingly not a vehicle designed for allowing people to do a week's worth of shopping (except, ironically, by virtue of the services often being empty).

Elsewhere, the company has limited potential in richer areas like Tonbridge Wells or Sevenoaks, whose councils want even less to do with things like bus priority and parking restrictions than places like Maidstone.

It leaves genuinely deprived sinkhole areas Medway as the potential cash cow, but if the residents have no real reason to go anywhere because they have no jobs and they can no longer access public services, it leaves the company trying to make a profit running a whole lot of buses carrying mostly fresh air. In addition, much of the work available in the likes of Medway is either at unsociable hours or in places with no bus service anyway.

Nu-Venture and their ilk of course survive by having the security of tendered routes and little to no management overheads, and absolutely no shareholders demanding dividends. Even capital costs are lower, their buses either being leased or sourced second hand but far older than a company like M&D would ever countenance putting into regular service.

Stagecoach do better in the boonies because there is more of an even spread of deprivation and far less car ownership. There are also a fair few factories and other small scale hospitality employers to sustain peak loadings, with commuting less of an option (and even there, it is perhaps more likely people will be willing to get a bus to the station and forego a second car entirely). Stagecoach buys standard deckers in bulk and works them hard, unlike the piecemeal approach of Arriva, so the savings are obvious there.

Perhaps also relevant is the lottery of council support as it relates to geography. I get the impression places like Canterbury are far more willing to work with a bus operator to get the most revenue out of tourism and park and ride than places closer to London. Same with for example Oxford and Reading and pretty much anywhere that is a significant hike away from the bright lights of the big city, but still nominally in the SE.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Having just moved to the Medway towns I have to agree completely with everything said above. I have met some really lovely drivers in the two months I've been here and hope that industrial relations now remain good

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's tough to pinpoint Arriva's actual hey day.

I’d definitely agree with this, and @M803UYA longer post making the same comments.

First were rightly criticised for many of their decisions, but I’d characterise First’s problem as never sticking with a good idea long enough. First Bradford had pre-pay cards and loyalty points for using them way back in the late 90s. The Overground concept of frequent colour-coded routes was genuinely innovative. They never followed through, but at least they tried.

Arriva? I remember moving from Bradford to Durham in 2001 and being amazed at how poor Arriva were in comparison. Even Arriva’s newest buses and seemingly the pride of the fleet, the DAF SB220/Plaxton Prestige, was a genuinely terrible bus. It was the same in Yorkshire as the old West Riding and Yorkshire Woollen brands disappeared into Arriva, and this was definitely not an improvement.

As you say, I can’t ever remember Arriva being good. They weren’t Blazefield, they weren’t Brighton and Hove, they weren’t even Go North East. And I also can’t remember them being quietly competent, like Stagecoach usually were, even in places like Newcastle where they very much rested on their laurels.

 

[Andyh82]

Even now you hear the tired old "WorstGroup" and comments suggesting some people think First is still in the Lockhead era, yet the general awfulness of Arriva is largely ignored.

I think this might be because Arriva tend to operate in less prominent areas that don’t get as much attention by enthusiasts, they tend to operate in more secondary areas in between the biggest places

Looking at a list of the top 20 biggest towns/cities in the UK besides London, Arriva have basically got Liverpool and Derby where they are the ‘main’ operator

Whereas First are the main operator in Leeds, Glasgow, Bradford, Sheffield, Bristol, Leicester, was Southampton and were half of Manchester

 

[Ken H]

I think this might be because Arriva tend to operate in less prominent areas that don’t get as much attention by enthusiasts, they tend to operate in more secondary areas in between the biggest places

Looking at a list of the top 20 biggest towns/cities in the UK besides London, Arriva have basically got Liverpool and Derby where they are the ‘main’ operator

Whereas First are the main operator in Leeds, Glasgow, Bradford, Sheffield, Bristol, Leicester, was Southampton and were half of Manchester

They have a big operation in the city of Wakefield extending into the old Woollen area and also towards Pontefract and Selby. Wakey bus station is a sea of blue. First do urban Leeds as they are the old Leeds municipal with a bit of old West Yorkshire Road Car in the North, but they suffer from Arriva competition in SE Leeds.

 

[daodao]

It’s farewell to Arriva in Mid Cheshire. They made some mistakes but also tried to make the area work.

At times they had for example:

Northwich- Winsford up to 6 an hour

Hourly Northwich- Sandbach introduced

Circulars linking different parts of Northwich

Hourly Winsford industrial estate service

Half hourly 37 and 31 from Winsford

Hourly journeys into Davenham, Moulton and Kingsmead villages

Crewe- Congleton on branded half hourly double deckers

Sapphire spec on 130s

All these far in excess of Crosville/North Western they inherited. Plus, WiFi, USB ports and decent seats means they were a decent operating company. However, the reductions in council funding and undercutting by basic low cost operators see them off.

I, as a passenger now have to travel on D&G (although First, Stagecoach Warrington’s Own have acquired a few routes) with rattly buses, crappy seats and no modern infrastructure. This is not progress.

It is the end of an era, which started exactly 100 years ago with the formation of the erstwhile North West Road Car Company in Macclesfield in 1923. Central and Eastern Cheshire will now largely be served by an "independent" operator and not by part of one of the large national bus groups.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Some people would be dancing on the rooftops about this particular news but indeed it doesn't sound as if this is a particularly positive move for bus users in the area, or perhaps there aren't enough of them hence the retrenchment by all

 

[Goldfish62]

Some people would be dancing on the rooftops about this particular news but indeed it doesn't sound as if this is a particularly positive move for bus users in the area, or perhaps there aren't enough of them hence the retrenchment by all

I understand where you're coming from. It's not as if some of these independents are particularly high quality.