Avanti explains oxenholme incident

[43066]

I don't think people would be making such a big deal of it were it not for Avant's awful track record (no pun intended). Their response (and, indeed, their general attitiude) just feels like adding insult to injury. As I've said many times, I've no beef with the Avanti frontline staff I've had contact with- they've been lovely- but I really don't think something approaching a reliable train service is too much to ask for (and us Cumbrians at least are heartily fed up with it).

I can certainly agree with all of that!

 

[DelW]

There was a minor human-error style cock up which led to a a few late night passengers being delayed. Some were released from a locked station, some chose to climb over a gate. Both of the last two categories had been given the choice to remain on a lit and heated train. There was no danger to anyones’ safety at any point.

This event was not a big issue in the scheme of things and I doubt it would even have been known about had Farron not stuck his oar in to try and seem relevant, prompting the (admittedly poorly judged) response from Avanti.

I really don't want to get into a prolonged argument which won't convince either of us , but:

• The "lit and heated train" would have taken them 30 miles away from their destination, with no guarantee that they would even get home that night, and a certainty that they'd be delayed at least another hour on top of the hour and a half that they were already late
• As has repeatedly been pointed out, Farron did not "stick his oar in to try to seem relevant", he was contacted at the time by a constituent whose son was on the train. Should he have ignored her? Do you think that the people involved wouldn't have gone public if he had ignored them?
• Do you think that this is an acceptable way for a company to treat its customers? Can you imagine the furore if (for example) a supermarket accidentally locked-in a group of its customers, then said it was the customers' fault and they'd have to wait at least an hour to go home?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder whether these passengers would have been in any worse a position had the train not stopped at Oxonholme as intended. They would still have needed to get taxis from somewhere...

Lancaster would be the place to do it. Even thinking it would work in Penrith was a serious error.

 

[BrianW]

It was 16th/17th August - a Tuesday night

You wouldn't believe it? Over a month ago now and it's still news. A relatively minor cock-up in the overalll scheme of things (No-one was killed at least)- but not insignificant and not to be glossed over. Avanti should have got this resolved and 'yesterday's chip-paper' long ago by now. Any business, esp its PR folk, know that Bad news travels far and fast and lasts; they must be mad, have lost the plot and decided the game's up for them, as witnessed across the board if not across The Board. I doubt lessons will be learned by the so-called 'organisation'.

Has anyone got news of what, if anything, was done for folk at Penrith?

 

[Dr Hoo]

I can hardly believe that this is still dragging on.

Some time back around 1984, when I was in 'ground level' operations management somewhere on what was then the South Western Division of the Southern Region, I was asked by my Area Manager to look into a night shift operational issue. I duly attended and, with the local station supervisor, did some investigation of the matter. Back at the station we allowed the last train to Waterloo [say, 1A34] to depart on time before adjourning to the office for a cup of tea.

Entering the office the supervisor glanced at the teleprinter, which was the source of most critical information in those days, and was horrified to read something along the lines of: "CHANNEL ISLAND FLIGHT SUSPENSION DUE TO BAD WEATHER. PAX DIVERTED TO SHIPPING VIA PORTSMOUTH. [XX TOWN] TO SECURE CONNECTION INTO [1A34] FROM [2B56]."

We just had time to digest this instruction when [2B56] duly arrived and decanted a significant number of expectant London passengers looking for their promised connection. Oh dear!

As overnight engineering possessions closed in we managed to rustle up an ad hoc working as far up the SWML as we could, where somebody else found themselves dealing with the poor folk until whatever RRB or taxis that could eventually be sourced arrived. The passengers, who would have already suffered hours of delay on top of a lengthy voyage in atrocious weather had no access to refreshments, no mobile phones in those days and probably got to Waterloo in the middle of the night.


In the 'fog of war' things happen and issues can get missed until it's too late. Needless to say there was a bit of an internal BR investigation into what had 'Gone Wrong' and the Area Manager had me in for a brief chat. I don't recall any biscuits being offered. Some useful lessons learned.

But nobody blamed Robert Reid (BR Chairman) or Nicholas Ridley (Secretary of State for Transport). It didn't get into the papers or on the TV News. I dare say that Robert Reid and Nicholas Ridley had more important things to discuss, such as giving the go-ahead to electrification of the ECML for example.

 

[the sniper]

I can hardly believe that this is still dragging on.

I keep coming back to this thread thinking the conversation must have moved on to something else, as I can't believe this incident has produced this amount of discussion!

 

[Horizon22]

I really don't want to get into a prolonged argument which won't convince either of us , but:

• The "lit and heated train" would have taken them 30 miles away from their destination, with no guarantee that they would even get home that night, and a certainty that they'd be delayed at least another hour on top of the hour and a half that they were already late
• As has repeatedly been pointed out, Farron did not "stick his oar in to try to seem relevant", he was contacted at the time by a constituent whose son was on the train. Should he have ignored her? Do you think that the people involved wouldn't have gone public if he had ignored them?
• Do you think that this is an acceptable way for a company to treat its customers? Can you imagine the furore if (for example) a supermarket accidentally locked-in a group of its customers, then said it was the customers' fault and they'd have to wait at least an hour to go home?

Ultimately it’s just that though; yes significant delays and inconvenience (indicative of Avanti currently), but not some wider or more significant safety issue.

There’d have probably been the same furore for a supermarket as there was here - a fair bit of local coverage, maybe a short story in a national paper but forgotten in a week. Only because this is a rail forum are we still talking about it.

 

[Watershed]

I keep coming back to this thread thinking the conversation must have moved on to something else, as I can't believe this incident has produced this amount of discussion!

It's difficult for it to have moved on when Avanti, in their last public statement, were still defending the indefensible rather than holding their hands up and making a (likely hollow) promise that it won't happen again.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It's difficult for it to have moved on when Avanti, in their last public statement, were still defending the indefensible rather than holding their hands up and making a (likely hollow) promise that it won't happen again.

Perhaps I've missed Avanti's 'last public statement'. Is there any genuine expectation that there will be a further one after this length of time?

As demonstrated by my recollection of a not-too-dissimilar BR incident from 38 years ago, it remains a sad fact that sometimes genuinely well-meaning contingency plans can fail in their execution because of misunderstanding, shift changes, sheer weight of disruption, etc.

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps I've missed Avanti's 'last public statement'. Is there any genuine expectation that there will be a further one after this length of time?

If they were investigating it with the seriousness such an incident warrants, then I would expect a further statement once the investigation has been completed. At the very least I would expect the MP and affected passengers to be told of this, and this may cause another news article to be published.

As demonstrated by my recollection of a not-too-dissimilar BR incident from 38 years ago, it remains a sad fact that sometimes genuinely well-meaning contingency plans can fail in their execution because of misunderstanding, shift changes, sheer weight of disruption, etc.

And whilst that is the reality, Avanti weren't even acknowledging their failure. That is the first step in making things right.

 

[Western Sunset]

As others have asked, do we know what happened at Penrith to the passengers who decided to stay on the train?

 

[Horizon22]

It's difficult for it to have moved on when Avanti, in their last public statement, were still defending the indefensible rather than holding their hands up and making a (likely hollow) promise that it won't happen again.

Although I doubt anything more is going to come out publicly. As I said above, other than those directly affected and people specifically interested in railways, people have moved on.

Anything further will be the matter of internal investigations, disciplinaries and subsequent warnings / sanctions. There really is unlikely to be anything else forthcoming as Avanti are not going to divulge information from an internal investigation if they are not required to, just like any other business.

 

[43066]

The "lit and heated train" would have taken them 30 miles away from their destination, with no guarantee that they would even get home that night, and a certainty that they'd be delayed at least another hour on top of the hour and a half that they were already late

Being inconvenienced isn’t the same as being put in danger. Had they been locked onto an open station in freezing/wet winter weather for hours without shelter, I might agree you had a point.

As has repeatedly been pointed out, Farron did not "stick his oar in to try to seem relevant", he was contacted at the time by a constituent whose son was on the train. Should he have ignored her? Do you think that the people involved wouldn't have gone public if he had ignored them?

I’m (cynically) convinced Farron did this for his own reasons, and his involvement meant this particular mole hill has been turned into a mountain. The people involved probably wouldn’t have “gone public” because it frankly isn’t that big a deal.

Do you think that this is an acceptable way for a company to treat its customers? Can you imagine the furore if (for example) a supermarket accidentally locked-in a group of its customers, then said it was the customers' fault and they'd have to wait at least an hour to go home?

Not really but, as in every aspect of life, things go wrong sometimes! It sounds like once the error was realised they did what they could.

 

[JamieL]

Being inconvenienced isn’t the same as being put in danger. Had they been locked onto an open station in freezing/wet winter weather for hours without shelter, I might agree you had a point.



I’m (cynically) convinced Farron did this for his own reasons, and his involvement meant this particular mole hill has been turned into a mountain. The people involved probably wouldn’t have “gone public” because it frankly isn’t that big a deal.



Not really but, as in every aspect of life, things go wrong sometimes! It sounds like once the error was realised they did what they could.

I don't agree that this was a "molehill" - it was an example of negligence by a company that is charged with running the most important railway artery in this country. In my view, this incident serves as a critical warning of just how inadequate Avanti have become. Had the UK Government had any degree of competence, Avanti would have been stripped of the franchise by now. Until they do, Farron and other politicians are doing the right thing by illuminating how dreadful the WCML is at present.

 

[Skiddaw]

I don't agree that this was a "molehill" - it was an example of negligence by a company that is charged with running the most important railway artery in this country. In my view, this incident serves as a critical warning of just how inadequate Avanti have become. Had the UK Government had any degree of competence, Avanti would have been stripped of the franchise by now. Until they do, Farron and other politicians are doing the right thing by illuminating how dreadful the WCML is at present.

Hear, hear...

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't agree that this was a "molehill" - it was an example of negligence by a company that is charged with running the most important railway artery in this country. In my view, this incident serves as a critical warning of just how inadequate Avanti have become.

Do you believe this incident was unique to Avanti ? When this happens at other TOCs is that also negligence ?

 

[JamieL]

Do you believe this incident was unique to Avanti ? When this happens at other TOCs is that also negligence ?

Of course it is negligence when passengers are deposited into a locked station with no way out.

 

[trainophile]

Perhaps chain fenced stations should have on the platform an emergency set of wire cutters, in a 'break glass to access' box with small hammer, and suitable "penalty for improper use" notice. In view of CCTV to prevent theft.

 

[43066]

I don't agree that this was a "molehill" - it was an example of negligence by a company that is charged with running the most important railway artery in this country. In my view, this incident serves as a critical warning of just how inadequate Avanti have become. Had the UK Government had any degree of competence, Avanti would have been stripped of the franchise by now. Until they do, Farron and other politicians are doing the right thing by illuminating how dreadful the WCML is at present.

The WCML is in its current state directly because of the government. This (minor) mistake could have happened under any operator. It will no doubt happen again, but it’s very rare in the scheme of things.

The reaction on this thread is OTT. Nobody has died or been injured, or even been endangered.

Of course it is negligence when passengers are deposited into a locked station with no way out.

That isn’t what happened. They were offered the ability to rejoin the train. If the trained hadn’t stopped as intended they’d have been in no different a position and reliant on taxis being provided. Actually the ones who elected to climb over the gate would have been worse off.

 

[Gloster]

Even if not directly dangerous, it is a bad mess up by the TOC, but these things do happen and, if handled properly, will soon be forgotten. What seems to have made it worse and kept it running is a crass press release that seemed to try to push as much of the blame as possible onto the passengers. As far as I can see, Avanti seem to have kept to this extremely arrogant line (others may correct me), which has not helped to dampen things down,

 

[AndyW33]

Actually the ones who elected to climb over the gate would have been worse off.

Apart from the ones who had their cars in the Oxenholme station car park of course.

 

[SamYeager]

The WCML is in its current state directly because of the government.

Please provide some evidence to back up this statement.

 

[philthetube]

If posts on this thread were restricted to people who have never made mistakes at work I suspect that the only posts made would be by people who have never worked.

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone,

 

[JamieL]

If posts on this thread were restricted to people who have never made mistakes at work I suspect that the only posts made would be by people who have never worked.

That is a strange comment. People make mistakes of course, but effective companies have checks and controls to manage such mistakes without detriment to business outputs, especially when it is customer facing.

 

[Phil56]

That is a strange comment. People make mistakes of course, but effective companies have checks and controls to manage such mistakes without detriment to business outputs, especially when it is customer facing.

And, of course, make a proper apology when they screw up, unlike Avanti's half baked attempt at blaming passengers! If Avanti had issued a proper apology for their mistake, all this would have blown over by now.

 

[ComUtoR]

That is a strange comment. People make mistakes of course, but effective companies have checks and controls to manage such mistakes without detriment to business outputs, especially when it is customer facing.

You could put in 100 checks and 100 balances but those people who make mistakes will always make them.

I've worked for various company facing businesses and all of them make some kind of mistake.

Humans are weird like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It couldn't have been an issue in the way it was if the station had an exit openable from inside. It's ridiculous that this is not a requirement - it would prevent all such incidents entirely.

 

[Dave W]

And, of course, make a proper apology when they screw up, unlike Avanti's half baked attempt at blaming passengers! If Avanti had issued a proper apology for their mistake, all this would have blown over by now.

This is surely the crux of all this. Aside from that we're still having the same entrenched discussion we were having about it 2 weeks ago.

I do think there's something in the view that people stuffing the job is inevitable, but it's the recovery from that which is key. Probably fair to say Avanti reacted as best they could at the time - no criticism there - but what has followed from them is garbage. And so back to the above quote - that's why it's produced almost 10 pages of wibble discussion.

 

[Mag_seven]

Looks like this thread has run its course for the moment in the absence of any further developments.