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Aviation Discussion

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gsnedders

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It's all pounds, shillings and pence though (well, dollars and cents!). The Max was a lot cheaper, faster and less risky (no laughing at the back) for Boeing to develop than a brand new airframe. It sold exceptionally well before the crashes showing that it was the correct decision in commercial terms.
Note that Boeing wasn't planning a further 737 generation aircraft, but airlines practically demanded it as a response to Airbus announcing the A320neo. Airlines heavily invested in the 737 family didn't want the delay (yet alone the retraining/tooling required) to wait for a 737 replacement to compete with others getting the A320neo.

My own feeling is that what lead to the MAX situation is, one way or another, the result of a series of decisions that reflect a particular corporate culture at Boeing.

Unfortunately, that means that I am now inherently less comfortable (although admittedly it's all about degrees, and I'd favour a competent Boeing operator over an incompetent Airbus one) flying a newer Boeing product than I am an Airbus one.
Yeah, for me it's vastly more interesting from the point-of-view of the corporate culture that led to the design flaws (and the governance culture that led the FAA to approve it) rather than the specific flaws in the 737 MAX itself. With all of its developmental pressures, does the 787 have internally known hidden flaws? Because if it's a corporate culture problem, then that's a real risk even without the old airframe design.

And much has been written about how Boeing's culture changed since the McDonnell Douglas acquisition, and all of it for the worse.
 
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Bald Rick

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BA Cityflyer are launching leisure routes from Southampton;


Presumably more viable from Southampton (given lack of competition there) than Stansted.
 

FQTV

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Is this also resulting from lower utilisation of the fleet at City - fewer business trips to Amsterdam, Zurich etc?

No, as always, it’s fundamentally because London City Airport closes from noon Saturday to noon Sunday to meet noise abatement agreements.

The British Airways fleet that’s based at City - BA CityFlyer - has to either be grounded there, or flown out for maintenance, or be grounded elsewhere, or fly a weekend-only schedule from other bases.

In the past, this has been from, variously, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Newcastle and London Stansted.

Newcastle was always very limited when it happened; there are still CityFlyer flights from all of the others in the schedules for next year (eg Palma), but it looks as though routes have been trimmed for Manchester and Stansted, to be sent out of Southampton instead.

Variations in weekday demand out of City won’t impact on this - those schedules and fleet resources will be flexed separately. What I would expect to see are more weekday flights to destinations such as Nice (slots there permitting), the Balearics, Greek Islands, Sardinia, Corsica, Sicily etc., etc., where there’s already been a growth in demand and yields in recent years.
 
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Two of the BA CityFlyer E190’s fly into Southampton early on Friday evening from Edinburgh and Berlin, after their last trips of the day out of LCY to those destinations.
Seats are being sold for those “positioning flights”.
They then operate out of Southampton over the next couple of days, before returning to Edinburgh and Berlin on Sunday, ready for use on CityFlyers normal scheduled routes to/from LCY during the next week.
From the proposed services, it looks like a third a/c might be joining them, to add a couple of more Southampton flights.
If so, that will probably arrive on a W pattern from the European destination being served, having originally operated out of either LCY, or another U.K. airport.

It’s a good earner for BACF, as the aircraft would otherwise be sitting idle, due to the LCY w/e closure and reduced w/e demand for business flights.
 

Bald Rick

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Two of the BA CityFlyer E190’s fly into Southampton early on Friday evening from Edinburgh and Berlin, after their last trips of the day out of LCY to those destinations.
Seats are being sold for those “positioning flights”.
They then operate out of Southampton over the next couple of days, before returning to Edinburgh and Berlin on Sunday, ready for use on CityFlyers normal scheduled routes to/from LCY during the next week.
From the proposed services, it looks like a third a/c might be joining them, to add a couple of more Southampton flights.
If so, that will probably arrive on a W pattern from the European destination being served, having originally operated out of either LCY, or another U.K. airport.

It’s a good earner for BACF, as the aircraft would otherwise be sitting idle, due to the LCY w/e closure and reduced w/e demand for business flights.

I’ve always wondered how the crewing works for these weekend only jobs. Presumably BACF get some of the crew to ‘lodge’, but fresh crews must come in at some point?
 

FQTV

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I’ve always wondered how the crewing works for these weekend only jobs. Presumably BACF get some of the crew to ‘lodge’, but fresh crews must come in at some point?

I don’t know what the plans are for this coming Summer, but there are all sorts of weird and wonderful ways that they can roster things, and the rosters for flight and cabin crews could be different, too.

As a specific example, and from memory, when Club World London City operated to New York, flight crew actually booked-on at Gatwick, and were then taxied to City. This put them out of hours for City > Shannon > JFK, so they operated City > Shannon on Day One, night stopped then operated the following day’s Shannon > JFK. From memory also, they then had a two night stop in New York and operated one of Day Four’s direct back to London, arriving Day Five.

Cabin Crew booked on at City and operated through to New York on Day One, with one night stop there and operated one of Day Two’s Eastbounds, landing Day Three.

TUI rotate a lot of staff around for their long hauls as they tend to only operate once weekly from a given U.K. station. On occasion they’ll use BA domestics to reposition crew who have gone out, say, Newcastle > Barbados and then operated Barbados > Gatwick a few days later. Depending on hours and logistics, they may taxi them to Heathrow and fly them up to Newcastle, or they might night stop them at Gatwick and then taxi them all the way back to Newcastle.

So, it’s quite possible that BA CityFlyer could have something quite creative set up for Southampton, at least at the beginning of each weekend, whereas at Manchester, Edinburgh and Glasgow they’ll probably continue to just rotate them through existing night stop lodging facilities or dead head (fly crew as passengers) them in and out on other scheduled services.

It’s also the case that a lot of crew, on all fleets and subsidiaries, ‘commute’ from outstations anyway, so they may not even need to dead head some of them in.
 

Bletchleyite

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Ahhh, but the glamour...

Well, quite - this is precisely why they can get away with what is an utterly knackering job (steward/ess) with very poor conditions being paid very poorly (far less I believe than a railway guard) - basically, for everyone who's sick of the job, there are 10 people who want to do it despite all that. In some ways a bit like being an outdoor activity instructor - a totally different job, but one where you similarly get "paid to play" so there is no shortage of (generally younger) people willing to do long, often weekend hours for minimum wage.
 

stantheman

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Have noticed Easyjet are doing new flights from Edinburgh to Lanzarote to Fuerteventura till end of March ...very odd unless it’s to fill a gap from Jet2 who seem to have cancelled all Canaries except Tenerife fir the time being. Perhaps Jet2 folk on other Canary flights were offered Tenerife so they could retain passengers and operate them all with just one plane .

Loganair have begun Edinburgh to Glasgiw flights for a limited period at Pds 45 one way . Some appear to have sold out .
 
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eoff

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Loganair have begun Edinburgh to Glasgiw flights for a limited period at Pds 45 one way . Some appear to have sold out .
Does make me wonder what the shortest scheduled flights are between mainland UK airports.
I'm pretty sure that I once disembarked a flight at Edinburgh that was scheduled to go on to Dundee (or perhaps Perth).
 

FQTV

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Does make me wonder what the shortest scheduled flights are between mainland UK airports.
I'm pretty sure that I once disembarked a flight at Edinburgh that was scheduled to go on to Dundee (or perhaps Perth).
Mainland and 'ordinarily' it tends to be something like Birmingham to Edinburgh, and that probably is the shortest that's jet operated.

From time to time, there are all sorts of odd shorter ones; Leeds Bradford to (the then) Durham Tees Valley as part of a hopping service from Southampton and (IIRC) on to Aberdeen.

Then you have ones that operated more permanently, but some time ago, like Bristol/Cardiff to Plymouth on Brymon, and of course British Airways from London Heathrow to Birmingham.

For non-mainland, of course, it's Westray to Papa Westray in The Orkneys. The airborne time is ninety seconds, making it also the world's shortest scheduled flight.
 

Bald Rick

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For non-mainland, of course, it's Westray to Papa Westray in The Orkneys. The airborne time is ninety seconds, making it also the world's shortest scheduled flight.

On the bucket list. The flight distance is shorter than Heathrow’s Runway, IIRC.
 

eoff

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I just checked the BA timetable in the drawer next to me.

Bristol to Cardiff: 20 mins
Newquay to Plymouth: 20 mins
Newcastle to Manchester: 35 mins
Plymouth to Bristol: 35 mins
Campbeltown to Glasgow: 40 mins
Inverness to Edinburgh: 45 mins

Unfortunately I didn't keep a British Midland timetable of the same era for the East Midlands flights.
 

stantheman

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Air UK used to have a morning Gatwick to Glasgow to Edinburgh although not sure if it conveyed internal Scottish passengers . They also did Aberdeen / Edinburgh / Norwich with the great sounding Fokke4 F27 and Aberdeen / Edinburgh to Amsterdam . I think these were to get economic losdings l Jet2 have also been combining Glasgow and Edinbutgh to Tenerife fir the same reason recently . Might be wrong but Air UK might have had Stavznger to Aberdeen to Edinburgh to Stansted . Great airline .
 

Red Onion

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As part of a longer route.

Much the same as Aberdeen to Inverness flight tickets have appeared. The flight goes onto Belfast (and return) but it’s now possible to travel between the two cities by air, journey time of around 25 minutes.
 

FQTV

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These turboprop hops are a potentially interesting phenomenon that might have a short term resurgence at least.

It was very common for carriers like AirUK, Brymon, Gill Air and latterly Eastern to be running these hopping routes with anything from Bandeirantes up to Dash-7s, Fokker F27s, Handley-Page Heralds and the like.

Brymon would do (say) Aberdeen > Newcastle > Bristol > Plymouth. AirUK would run Newcastle > Stansted > Paris. Gill Air did Newcastle > Aberdeen > Wick.

Usually what then happened is that a carrier like easyJet would grab the sector with the most potential; one that could support a 737 or A32x. Whilst it made travel on that sector hugely more accessible, it often totally compromised the viability of the other sectors in the original route. So, while Newcastle > Bristol became significantly cheaper, Aberdeen > Newcastle became a lot more expensive, and Bristol > Plymouth withered completely (despite Air SouthWest's efforts).

Whilst demand remains very low and discretionary travel is almost non-existent, and if the no-frills carriers don't dump seats, then, we may see the prop-hoppers offering some interesting routes for a little while.
 
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gsnedders

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Air UK used to have a morning Gatwick to Glasgow to Edinburgh although not sure if it conveyed internal Scottish passengers . They also did Aberdeen / Edinburgh / Norwich with the great sounding Fokke4 F27 and Aberdeen / Edinburgh to Amsterdam . I think these were to get economic losdings l Jet2 have also been combining Glasgow and Edinbutgh to Tenerife fir the same reason recently . Might be wrong but Air UK might have had Stavznger to Aberdeen to Edinburgh to Stansted . Great airline .
I'm surprised Jet2 combining Glasgow and Edinburgh, given quite how close they are and the relatively quick travel time to Edinburgh Airport from Strathclyde given it is west of the city. Am kinda surprised it's not more economical to bus people from Glasgow to Edinburgh; I guess some of it is not wanting to outright cancel the Glasgow flight with potential compensation etc., but still… just surprised we haven't seen more consolidation towards Edinburgh for many of these routes.

They also seem to be doing a bunch of Glasgow to Belfast to Tenerife, which surprises me much less (much harder to get between those airports, after all!).

[Edit, for the sake of nerdery, the Jet2 Edinburgh/Glasgow flights seem to be operating at FL55, though the eastbound flights start desending immediately after overflying the Campsies, whereas the westbound flights climb out of EDI to that altitude till they start they're approach into GLA.]
 
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.....[Edit, for the sake of nerdery, the Jet2 Edinburgh/Glasgow flights seem to be operating at FL55 ...... the westbound flights climb out of EDI to that altitude till they start they're approach into GLA.]

I’ll raise your “nerdery” with my pedantry.
FL55 is not an altitude.


z
 

Bald Rick

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Presumably to connect with all the trans stlantic flights to tourist destinations (Carribean, Mexico, etc) - there must be a couple of thousands BA seats flying out late morning each day, and some of the passengers are bound to be attracted to a Manchester connection. I assume that with the travails elsewhere in the travel industry that direct flights from Manchester to the Carribean by other operators have been reduced.
 

158756

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Presumably to connect with all the trans stlantic flights to tourist destinations (Carribean, Mexico, etc) - there must be a couple of thousands BA seats flying out late morning each day, and some of the passengers are bound to be attracted to a Manchester connection. I assume that with the travails elsewhere in the travel industry that direct flights from Manchester to the Carribean by other operators have been reduced.

That's what the timings look like, though who knows how many flights there will actually be to any of those destinations next year. Thomas Cook did a lot of flights from Manchester to the Caribbean, but you'd think it BA were after that market they'd have done something sooner. Maybe they've just got nothing better to do with the slots now.
 

najaB

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Maybe they've just got nothing better to do with the slots now.
There's an element of slot usage, but BA appears to be increasing their Caribbean offering since most of the islands have done reasonably well at controling Covid, and are working to increase higher end UK tourism.

For example, Barbados has regularly scheduled LHR flights for the first time in about 20 years.

Most evenings a not insignificant portion of BA's B772 fleet is in the region. Typically 2x in Barbados, 1x in Jamaica, 1x in Antigua, 1x in St Lucia/Grenada, and 1x in the Caman Islands and/or the Turks and Caicos Islands.
 
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