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Bridge problem cardiff Central 20/4/25 route blocked Newport Cardiff

Peter Sarf

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I could guess that the pair of Central to/from Queen Street lines are by directional - is that so ?.
I so I can believe that the Southerm most line (normally Queen Street to Central) is now being used as that probably does not rely on the last beam that seems to lean over.
 
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Cardiff123

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I could guess that the pair of Central to/from Queen Street lines are by directional - is that so ?.
I so I can believe that the Southerm most line (normally Queen Street to Central) is now being used as that probably does not rely on the last beam that seems to lean over.
Since the Cardiff Area Signalling Renewal (CASR) project that completed in 2017, Queen St to Central has been bi-directional and Valley lines trains can depart or arrive Central to Queen St from platforms 4, 6, 7 or 8 at Central, although P4 at Central is rarely used for movements to/from Queen St.
 
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AdamWW

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But I just looked to check that wording, and in fact found they have now changed the yellow banner to include:

Which is a pretty good and useful summary and I suppose it would be churlish of me to suggest they could have provided such clarity a bit earlier.

It was too good to be true. Now the banner is back to a vague:
Urgent repairs are taking place to a bridge between Cardiff Central and Cardiff Queen Street which is adjacent to the line between Cardiff Central and Newport/Ebbw Vale Town. A reduced service is operating through Cardiff Queen Street. Services between Cardiff Central and Ebbw Vale Town have been suspended.

Following a safety inspection of the track between Craven Arms and Church Stretton train services will be replaced by road transport between Hereford and Shrewsbury and Llandrindod and Shrewsbury while Network Rail carry out repairs.

For further information on how your journey may be affected - Transport for Wales JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Only Journeycheck isn't all that useful at least for Coryton trains because it's still showing all trains cancelled and a replacement running at exactly the same time.
So if you're paying attention you can see that the next few trains will run but it's not entirely obvious.

And worse, the "other trains" section for later in the day - which seems to be just set up to show disruption - shows all service cancelled and nothing about the ones that are running.

I do find it very hard to believe that this is the best that can be done.

Even if there is some failure in Journeycheck that means it can't be more useful there is surely nothing preventing an explanation from being provided in free text.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Gulp. That really dated message tells me how often they are reviewing information provision - almost never.

It really does look like the end of that beam should be resting on the top of the load spreading stone set in the brick viaduct. Instead it is sticking out but there maybe more structure to the beam behind it going into the viaduct and onto that stone.
Given the stone viaduct extends under the o/b quite a few metres more the majority of the o/b is sitting on top of the viaduct at that point although in decreasing proportion as the o/b traverses over the main lines. It would be deriving its integrity from transverse members so potentially a failure there in a hidden part of the structure. It strikes me also they've loaded that edge beam with additional metalwork im surmising to provide protection against the new electrification wiring below as well which maybe a contributory factor.

As an aside ORR have have recently put NR on notice about "Management of structures – structures examination and assessment noncompliance" across the entire company but of course as to the situation with this o/b is not known. Shame RAIB only get involved after incidents not in this situation as we will never really know what has happened.
 

Woolos 22

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Given the stone viaduct extends under the o/b quite a few metres more the majority of the o/b is sitting on top of the viaduct at that point although in decreasing proportion as the o/b traverses over the main lines. It would be deriving its integrity from transverse members so potentially a failure there in a hidden part of the structure. It strikes me also they've loaded that edge beam with additional metalwork im surmising to provide protection against the new electrification wiring below as well which maybe a contributory factor.

As an aside ORR have have recently put NR on notice about "Management of structures – structures examination and assessment noncompliance" across the entire company but of course as to the situation with this o/b is not known. Shame RAIB only get involved after incidents not in this situation as we will never really know what has happened.
Who responsible of the structure there .now transport for wales or network rail
 

AdamWW

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Who responsible of the structure there .now transport for wales or network rail

Good question.

The video linked above seemed to have people from both. I presume it's not the case that the bottom belongs to Network Rail and the top to TfW.

Thinking about it, I'm surprised that I haven't seen any signs denoting the boundary between NR and TfW on that line.
 

MikePJ

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Good question.

The video linked above seemed to have people from both. I presume it's not the case that the bottom belongs to Network Rail and the top to TfW.

Thinking about it, I'm surprised that I haven't seen any signs denoting the boundary between NR and TfW on that line.
The affected bridge is right on the boundary - in the Network Statement it says that the boundary is the "intersecting bridge", which is the one in question. Openrailwaymap shows the boundary as being in mid-span of the bridge, and the approach ramp from Cardiff Central belongs to Network Rail.
 

AdamWW

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The affected bridge is right on the boundary - in the Network Statement it says that the boundary is the "intersecting bridge", which is the one in question. Openrailwaymap shows the boundary as being in mid-span of the bridge, and the approach ramp from Cardiff Central belongs to Network Rail.

Hmmmm.

Having the interface in the middle of a structure is an interesting decision.
 

swt_passenger

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Hmmmm.

Having the interface in the middle of a structure is an interesting decision.
The western online sectional appendix shows the route boundary north of the main lines at 0m 13ch, ie the entire bridge belongs to NR. As you suggest, having a mid-structure interface makes no sense.
 

AdamWW

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The western online sectional appendix shows the route boundary north of the main lines at 0m 13ch, ie the entire bridge belongs to NR. As you suggest, having a mid-structure interface makes no sense.

Ah that sounds better.

Unfortunately (and perhaps unfairly) I would be quite prepared to believe the interface really was in the middle of the bridge. (Though I wouldn't conclude that just because Openrailwaymap says so given that it isn't - and doesn't claim to be - authoritative).

It does seem that infrastructure staff from both organisations were involved though.
 

zwk500

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The affected bridge is right on the boundary - in the Network Statement it says that the boundary is the "intersecting bridge", which is the one in question. Openrailwaymap shows the boundary as being in mid-span of the bridge, and the approach ramp from Cardiff Central belongs to Network Rail.
Hmmmm.

Having the interface in the middle of a structure is an interesting decision.
The western online sectional appendix shows the route boundary north of the main lines at 0m 13ch, ie the entire bridge belongs to NR. As you suggest, having a mid-structure interface makes no sense.
The 5 miles strongly suggest the bridge is from 0m 10ch to about 0m 18ch. The quail gives 10ch and 19ch as the bridge limits. It's not clear though exactly where the route boundary is in relation to the boundary of the metal bridge vs the brick approach ramp which is likely included in the bridge limits shown on the plans I can see.
 

87electric

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I thought I heard on the Green Signals podcast yesterday that the bridge fell into TfW ownership a few years back.
 

edwin_m

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It would make more sense if the bridge was still owned by NR, considering their tracks run under it so they will need to be involved in major maintenance anyway, and will suffer if it becomes unsafe. But this is the railway, who said it had to make sense?
 

Peter Sarf

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I thought I heard on the Green Signals podcast yesterday that the bridge fell into TfW ownership a few years back.
An unfortunate use f the word "fell" !.
It would make more sense if the bridge was still owned by NR, considering their tracks run under it so they will need to be involved in major maintenance anyway, and will suffer if it becomes unsafe. But this is the railway, who said it had to make sense?
The conspiracy theorist in my feels it is likely that TfW and Network Rail have been assuming the other party is responsible !.
 

Dai Corner

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It would make more sense if the bridge was still owned by NR, considering their tracks run under it so they will need to be involved in major maintenance anyway, and will suffer if it becomes unsafe. But this is the railway, who said it had to make sense?
Looking at the satellite view, the lines leading to Central and Bay seem to be on the same structure as they approach from Queen Street and split onto separate structures right above the main lines. If TfW own the Bay branch and Network Rail own the rest I can see the situation is complicated, to say the least.
 

starlight73

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The exact boundary between Network Rail and TfW (Core Valley Lines, CVL) is on digital page 17 (printed page no. 12), Appendix 2 of this document submitted to the regulator


the most I can understand is that the down Llandaff line (the one from Queen St towards Central) has a slight reduction in gradient at the boundary

Alt text: a complicated line diagram showing the track layout with signals, track circuits?, gradients and other measurements - not very clear what this means
 

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swt_passenger

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Having now seen the overview map on the pdf linked in post #136, specifically the area coloured blue on page 19 of 64, I’d say that the Aug 2024 page in the sectional appendix that I was looking at earlier, (referred to in post #129), must be completely wrong, and the 0m 13ch boundary is on the ramp before you get to the intersection bridge.
 

starlight73

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Extract from the map that @swt_passenger mentioned.
alt text: the map shows the junction and intersection between the Network Rail main line and TfW Core Valley Line (CVL) near Cardiff Central/Queen St. The CVL is marked in blue and the blue clearly extends all the way across the NR line and then to the ramp
 

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AdamWW

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Extract from the map that @swt_passenger mentioned.

So it really is the case that TfW have the top and NR the bottom?

Now I think about it, I suppose it's not unlike a motorway overbridge being owned by Highways England or whatever.

Though there's quite a bit of catenary fixed to this bridge.
 

John R

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Though there's quite a bit of catenary fixed to this bridge.
Indeed, it is the now well known (within railway circles) Intersection Bridge, which was the pilot for the engineering solution to reduce the cost of electrification by not having to demolish overbridges. A pilot which was almost forced by necessity, as the particular constraints of the location (I believe a canal in the vicinity doesn't help) meant either raising the bridge or lowering the main line tracks would have been (if possible) very expensive and hugely disruptive.
 

AdamWW

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Indeed, it is the now well known (within railway circles) Intersection Bridge, which was the pilot for the engineering solution to reduce the cost of electrification by not having to demolish overbridges. A pilot which was almost forced by necessity, as the particular constraints of the location (I believe a canal in the vicinity doesn't help) meant either raising the bridge or lowering the main line tracks would have been (if possible) very expensive and hugely disruptive.

The canal is a feeder so perhaps a bit easier to move than a navigable canal.

What I'm curious about is that the initial Valley Lines electrification seems to have gone for permanently earthed sections to cope with low bridges, but the later work on the Caerphilly/Coryton routes has made extensive use of surge arrestors with wires very close to the underside of bridges.

And of course while that one bridge was kept where it was, plenty of other overbridges further down the line were comprehensively rebuilt to raise them, even where it was really rather inconvenient due to buildings nearby.
 

John R

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And of course while that one bridge was kept where it was, plenty of other overbridges further down the line were comprehensively rebuilt to raise them, even where it was really rather inconvenient due to buildings nearby.
Bear in mind that was the first time it was used, and from all the articles I read, it was very much regarded as a prototype. It also came at the tail end of the electrification project, being at the end of the line. So I'm not surprised that it was the only time it was used on the GWML project. Let's just say it's good news that it is now being used more extensively on the MML, and helping to keep the costs of that project down.

What I'm curious about is that the initial Valley Lines electrification seems to have gone for permanently earthed sections to cope with low bridges, but the later work on the Caerphilly/Coryton routes has made extensive use of surge arrestors with wires very close to the underside of bridges.
Maybe experience on the TAM lines has led the engineers to conclude that the latter is the better approach, either in terms of cost of installation, ongoing maintenance, or there is some other benefit of minimising PE sections if at all possible.
 

edwin_m

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It's a bit reminiscent of a derailment a few years ago on a crossover at Wimbledon, which linked the NR and Underground tracks, and where each organisation thought the other one was maintaining it... https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...r-wimbledon-south-west-london-6-november-2017

This accident demonstrates the importance of:

  • ensuring that the precise boundaries of maintenance responsibility, such as those between neighbouring infrastructure owners, are correctly documented and understood by staff and managers
  • providing clear signage to mark maintenance boundaries so that inspection and maintenance staff from either side are sure they are working to the same boundary
Not saying that's the case here, but certainly something that needs to be considered.

The discrepancy between the land ownership boundary at 0mi13ch and the signalling boundary at 0mi19ch may imply that NR maintains the signalling that sits on TfW land on the section in between. The way it goes between the AWS magnets on the two tracks suggests that it may have been picked to ensure that the maintenance of each magnet goes with the maintenance of the signal it is associated with.
 

56xx

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Hmmmm.

Having the interface in the middle of a structure is an interesting decision.
Many highway bridges crossing rivers are in that situation as the middle of the river is often the county boundary. Each county is the Highway Authority each side and therefore share responsibility for the structure.
 

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