Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[fgwrich]

The MMCs are much more solid

Whereas the Cadet and Gemini 1/2, as a passenger, felt like a step up in quality from their equivalent ADL product, the tables have since turned

Fully agreed. The step up from the god awful Enviro 400 (effectively a re-styled Trident) to the MMC, and the god awful E200 to the excellent E200MMC has been almost remarkable. The only ADL vehicle I've always felt that was rather good was the heavier E300 - thankfully my town seems to have become a haven for them. Whereas 10 or so years ago, it really was Wrights leading the way with the Solar / Eclipse / Gemini range.

Lothian's XLBs seem to be both rattling and creaking an awful lot now they're 18 months or so old. That said, the b5 is is truly terrible and and the xlb seems like a public library in comparison

I took one down to Leith Docks last summer and, granted there is some horrifically cobbled roads down that side of Edinburgh, but the panel rattle and shaking was absolutely awful. A genuine surprise for an MMC, the vehicle ADL once branded as "Rattle Proof".

Surprisingly, a manufacturer rarely mentioned here when it comes to rattles etc is Optare - how do they compare?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Surprisingly, a manufacturer rarely mentioned here when it comes to rattles etc is Optare - how do they compare?

Optare and rattles go together like bread and butter...

I took one down to Leith Docks last summer and, granted there is some horrifically cobbled roads down that side of Edinburgh, but the panel rattle and shaking was absolutely awful. A genuine surprise for an MMC, the vehicle ADL once branded as "Rattle Proof".

The "rattle proof" statement is nothing more than a marketing gimmick, all the manufacturers go on about how they have a rattle proof bus, but the reality is regardless of build quality when you have a bus doing 18 hour shifts 7 days a week on poor roads it's going to rattle eventually.

Aberdeens new Streetdeck-FCEVs seem far better built than most MMCs, they're quite an insane step up from Lothians 18 plate Geminis which when new were essentially glorified maracas...

 

[CBlue]

Surprisingly, a manufacturer rarely mentioned here when it comes to rattles etc is Optare - how do they compare?

I found Optare vehicles to have gotten far worse over the years, especially the Solo and Versa. A friend who works as a fitter once quipped that Optare had left a load of loose bolts behind the rear seats on their brand new solo to save them stocking up on spare parts.

Versas especially seem to rattle badly and offer a rather rough ride even compared to older E200s.

 

[cnjb8]

Lothian's XLBs seem to be both rattling and creaking an awful lot now they're 18 months or so old. That said, the b5 is is truly terrible and and the xlb seems like a public library in comparison

The Tempo SR is the worst Optare product by a thousand miles in my opinion, rattled itself half to death.

Fully agreed. The step up from the god awful Enviro 400 (effectively a re-styled Trident) to the MMC, and the god awful E200 to the excellent E200MMC has been almost remarkable. The only ADL vehicle I've always felt that was rather good was the heavier E300 - thankfully my town seems to have become a haven for them. Whereas 10 or so years ago, it really was Wrights leading the way with the Solar / Eclipse / Gemini range.



I took one down to Leith Docks last summer and, granted there is some horrifically cobbled roads down that side of Edinburgh, but the panel rattle and shaking was absolutely awful. A genuine surprise for an MMC, the vehicle ADL once branded as "Rattle Proof".

Surprisingly, a manufacturer rarely mentioned here when it comes to rattles etc is Optare - how do they compare?

I found Optare vehicles to have gotten far worse over the years, especially the Solo and Versa. A friend who works as a fitter once quipped that Optare had left a load of loose bolts behind the rear seats on their brand new solo to save them stocking up on spare parts.

Versas especially seem to rattle badly and offer a rather rough ride even compared to older E200s.

It's the glass staircase. For example the Bluestar E400 City's have them and passengers have said how creaky it's made them

 

[LOL The Irony]

Scania are revealing a new bus next Monday at 10am called the Fencer https://scaniafencer.co.uk/. One slight problem, it's viewable on the Polish website and google images. (won't post for obvious reasons)

 

[cnjb8]

Scania are revealing a new bus next Monday at 10am called the Fencer https://scaniafencer.co.uk/. One slight problem, it's viewable on the Polish website and google images. (won't post for obvious reasons)

Could imply a UK version then I guess

 

[hst43102]

Could imply a UK version then I guess

Scania didn't offer UK versions of their newest city bus, the Citywide

 

[F Great Eastern]

Scania are revealing a new bus next Monday at 10am called the Fencer https://scaniafencer.co.uk/. One slight problem, it's viewable on the Polish website and google images. (won't post for obvious reasons)

It's on Scania's own website:

Home

Welcome! Scania is a global company with sales of trucks, buses & services in more than 100 countries. Scania’s production units are located in Europe, South America and Asia.

www.scania.com

 

[Mikey C]

What an odd name for a bus!

 

[Jordan Adam]

It's on Scania's own website:

Home

Welcome! Scania is a global company with sales of trucks, buses & services in more than 100 countries. Scania’s production units are located in Europe, South America and Asia.

www.scania.com

It looks pretty ugly!

 

[aswilliamsuk]

I wonder if this is a new fully electric bus from Scania? Or potentially, going on the name, it uses Geofencing (as per the E400ER now in large numbers in Brighton)?

 

[hst43102]

Have any other examples of the E400ER been ordered out of Brighton? It seems like a fantastic piece of technology.

 

[Hophead]

Have any other examples of the E400ER been ordered out of Brighton? It seems like a fantastic piece of technology.

Transport for Ireland have ordered 280 (with options for up to 320 more) and these have the City bodywork. These are now entering service. I don't believe anyone else has shown an interest so far. I guess that, if you can get subsidy, you'll go full battery/ electric, otherwise you'll stick with diesel, since Euro6 meets the low-emission requirements. I don’t think that Brighton and Hove got any financial support for their fleet.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Transport for Ireland have ordered 280 (with options for up to 320 more) and these have the City bodywork. These are now entering service. I don't believe anyone else has shown an interest so far. I guess that, if you can get subsidy, you'll go full battery/ electric, otherwise you'll stick with diesel, since Euro6 meets the low-emission requirements. I don’t think that Brighton and Hove got any financial support for their fleet.

They're essentially just E400Hs that have the ability to run in electric only mode for a short distance. I'm surprised anyone is buying them as series hybrid buses are quickly becoming obsolete.

 

[Mikey C]

The E400ER seems perfect for small to medium towns/cities where there is a specific area with air pollution problems or a strict LEZ.

The 3 mile electric range wouldn't work for larger places

 

[Snow1964]

Scania are revealing a new bus next Monday at 10am called the Fencer https://scaniafencer.co.uk/. One slight problem, it's viewable on the Polish website and google images. (won't post for obvious reasons)

This brochure (dated 10-2020) is about the Citywide, but page 6 has a note on electrification and a time line which includes launch of an electric double deck (sorry don’t know how to link time lines, so linking whole document). The picture below the time line includes a bus with low level windows (handy for those in a push chair to see out)

https://www.scania.com/content/dam/scanianoe/market/master/products-and-services/buses-and-Coaches/novali/brochures/product-brochure-scania-citywide-bev.pdf

Citywide is Left hand drive only and appears to be available between 11.4 and 13.3m lengths. But if new one gets a dedicated UK website probably going to be available in RHD

 

[Hophead]

They're essentially just E400Hs that have the ability to run in electric only mode for a short distance. I'm surprised anyone is buying them as series hybrid buses are quickly becoming obsolete.

Not sure I'd call 5km "a short distance". The electric mode will get you through the city centre in most places (it certainly does in Brighton). Battery/diesel hybrids of all sorts are really just an intermediate step on the way to full electrification, but do give operators the opportunity to postpone potentially costly infrastructure investment.

 

[LOL The Irony]

This tweet from Scania implies that Arriva have something to do with the Fencer coming here. https://twitter.com/ScaniaUK/status/1392373981315960832?s=19

Hey @ArrivaGroup, there’s something big in the pipeline and we’re pretty sure you’ll want in.

We’ll give you a hint: it’s been 10 years in the making

Schedule a reminder for our live launch at 10AM this Monday the 17th

Scania Fencer – The bus you've been waiting for

t.co

 

[TRAX]

This tweet from Scania implies that Arriva have something to do with the Fencer coming here. https://twitter.com/ScaniaUK/status/1392373981315960832?s=19

Nah, they've done the same with NCT Buses, National Express... They just seem to be tagging British bus operators...

 

[37114]

One presumes to go to the trouble of developing an electric double deck chassis that Scania have an initial launch customer signed up to justify the development? Stagecoach or First would be the obvious ones...

 

[Hophead]

Given it's been 10 years in the making, can we assume it's some kind of joint venture with Optare?

 

[Goldfish62]

It's the glass staircase. For example the Bluestar E400 City's have them and passengers have said how creaky it's made them

Part of the reason for the creaks is the quick release glazing that most operators specify. While it looks better than gasket it does not provide the rigidity of bonded glazing. Even though the Cities use bonded glazing for the staircase it's not enough to prevent the bodywork flexing elsewhere.

The E400EVs supplied to London still have the glazed staircase, but use bonded glazing throughout and are noticeably less creaky than their hybrid cousins.

 

[markymark2000]

Could they have done a 'operators build the bus' style thing like Alexander Dennis did with the Enviro 400 MMC originally?

(There is a documentary on it where it shows off how operators all got involved in designing it)

 

[LOL The Irony]

Nah, they've done the same with NCT Buses, National Express... They just seem to be tagging British bus operators...

You can add several others to the list, including Reading.

One presumes to go to the trouble of developing an electric double deck chassis that Scania have an initial launch customer signed up to justify the development? Stagecoach or First would be the obvious ones...

From their string of tweets, this appears to be the case.

 

[Jordan Adam]

One presumes to go to the trouble of developing an electric double deck chassis that Scania have an initial launch customer signed up to justify the development? Stagecoach or First would be the obvious ones...

Scania did develop the unsuccessful Citywide LFDD for Berlin and do build double deckers for Australasian countries.

 

[TRAX]

Scania did develop the unsuccessful Citywide LFDD for Berlin and do build double deckers for Australasian countries.

They only make the chassis for these Australasian countries, though.

 

[GusB]

They only make the chassis for these Australasian countries, though.

Maybe that's because only Australasian countries have ordered them so far. If there was a big enough order here...

 

[Jordan Adam]

They only make the chassis for these Australasian countries, though.

The same has been true in the UK for most of the past decade.

There's a live stream for the UK launch of the Scania Fencer ongoing just now.

Some key points to note.

Fencer F1 is the single decker, F9 is the double decker & F18 is an Articulated variant. All models will be offered in the UK in both diesel and electric variants, a coach will also be launched at a later date. The entire range will be offered as Diesel, Bio-Gas, Hybrid and Electric.

The Diesel Fencer F1 uses a K-Series chassis with an updated version of the DC09 engine rated at 280BHP coupled to a ZF Ecolife.
The Electric Fencer F1 uses an all Scania Drivetrain based on the C-Series chassis.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

It's certainly quite the commitment to the UK market (and sees Scania returning to offering their own bodywork in the UK, rather than relying on Irizar, which never really got off the ground for buses in the UK, and of course ADL). It will be interesting to see who orders them in time - you've got to think the likes of Reading and Nottingham might be interested in particular as they look to electrify in the coming years.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Having now looked at the brochure here's some more details about the F1

There will be the following drivetrain options:
Electric: 8 batteries (254kwh) / 10 batteries (330kwh)
Hybrid Electric: 9 Litre 280BHP
Diesel: 7 Litre 280BHP /9 Litre 280BHP / 9 Litre 320BHP
Biodiesel: 7 Litre 280BHP / 9 Litre 280 BHP (Hybrid) / 9 Litre 320BHP
CNG/LNG: 9 Litre 280BHP / 9 Litre 340BHP

The 7 litre variants use the DC07 engine which is a rebadged 6 Cylinder Cummins ISB, 9 Litre variants use Scania's own 5 cylinder DC09 engine.

There will be two lengths, the first is a 10.9M which can seat 38, the second is 12.2M which can seat 45.