C2C class 720 updates

[Roger B]

720 608 is booked on the 17.16 off Fenchurch Street today, with 720 604.

Many thanks Peter

 

[wickham]

A trip down to Shoeburyness today (22.11.23) produced:
Two x 720 inside depot at East Ham (unable to identify from passing train), 720610+720606 stabled on the sidings by the down main line (Barking end), 720607 Passed en-route, probably training: 720604 Training up and down in Shoeburyness sidings, Stabled in Shoeburyness sidings 720601 (on its own) and 720611 (coupled to another - unable to identify. Can anyone assist with what unit is coupled to 720611 today please ?
On the return trip (1347 from Shoberyness) 720607 was passed again and another which I missed, both running as 5 cars - presumably training.

 

[D7666]

Ah that would make sense. After all the motors and bogies are same packages.

Another possibiltiy is motor gears may be different.

701 and 720 are 100 mph.

710 are 75 mph and 345 90 mph.

If all those speed differences are achieved by the same, or similar, traction packs ,and motors, but with different gearing, they will sound different just because the motors will rotate a different speeds for the same train speed. Both from the mechanical gearing itself, and from when a squirrel cage motor rotates at different speeds, the VVVF gubbins driving it will be supplying different voltages and frequencies, hence the sound.

 

[Samzino]

Another possibiltiy is motor gears may be different.

701 and 720 are 100 mph.

710 are 75 mph and 345 90 mph.

If all those speed differences are achieved by the same, or similar, traction packs ,and motors, but with different gearing, they will sound different just because the motors will rotate a different speeds for the same train speed. Both from the mechanical gearing itself, and from when a squirrel cage motor rotates at different speeds, the VVVF gubbins driving it will be supplying different voltages and frequencies, hence the sound.

Ah I see. Makes sense.

 

[samuelmorris]

Ah I see. Makes sense.

Yeah that's definitely not the case in this instance - at the risk of going into excessive detail, the audible part of the drive electronics doesn't change with the gearing of the motors - for example it's still 2kHz for all Electrostars whether geared for 75, 100 or 110 and appears to be the same band for 710/720/730 which all have different rated speeds as well. The only thing that the gearing changes is the pitch of the actual traction motor gears at a given speed but they're pretty quiet nowadays, so you'd find it difficult to tell them apart. My guess is it's most likely that the 345s use a different frequency range due to the different signalling equipment in use in the core of the Elizabeth line compared to anywhere else on the network.

 

[D7666]

But it is by definition a VVVF drive Variable FREQUENCY Variable Voltage. Do explain how an asynchronous motor moves a train without that. If you apply a fixed frequency you will get a fixed speed. Which won't make a train work.

 

[samuelmorris]

But it is by definition a VVVF drive Variable FREQUENCY Variable Voltage. Do explain how an asynchronous motor moves a train without that. If you apply a fixed frequency you will get a fixed speed. Which won't make a train work.

Hence the word 'audible part'. The effect being described only applies to lower speeds. There are plenty of IGBT waveform videos on youtube if you want to take a look - an effect similar to pulse width modulation at a specific frequency is normally used at lower speeds, which is what is easiest to hear.

 

[wls1]

today: 720607

0957 2B89 Shoeburyness - Fenchurch Street https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G81324/2023-11-23/detailed#allox_id=0
1134 2B80 Fenchurch Street - Shoeburyness https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G81317/2023-11-23/detailed#allox_id=0

Lost time at Barking both ways, 16 minutes late into Shoeburyness, any ideas why this was?

 

[Triumph]

From the new TT changes the 720/6's will operate all day on Saturdays working the 7 diagrams that run from FENCHRS to SHBRYNS via Ockenden.
Nothing works on Sundays and the weekday service is the same as now. 3 doubles am peak and 2 doubles pm peak.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Nothing works on Sundays and the weekday service is the same as now. 3 doubles am peak and 2 doubles pm peak.

What annoys me is the promotion by c2c. “These new trains will begin to really improve the customer experience with features such as pull down tables, charging points, open walk-through carriages and an upgraded PIS” yes, that’s true, but what you fail to add is that you’re not going to bother running them for more than a couple of peak turns each day, so the “customer experience” will remain exactly the same for most on c2c, who will get on nothing but 357s as usual.

 

[chris11256]

What annoys me is the promotion by c2c. “These new trains will begin to really improve the customer experience with features such as pull down tables, charging points, open walk-through carriages and an upgraded PIS” yes, that’s true, but what you fail to add is that you’re not going to bother running them for more than a couple of peak turns each day, so the “customer experience” will remain exactly the same for most on c2c, who will get on nothing but 357s as usual.

Exactly! Why only have two PM 720 services. Unless they don't have enough drivers trained yet to run anything but a token handful?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Exactly! Why only have two PM 720 services. Unless they don't have enough drivers trained yet to run anything but a token handful?

If its for that reason and the limited use is only in the interim - absolutely fine and fair enough. But honestly, with 12 sets they need to be using them all day really, and more than just a couple.

 

[Kite159]

What annoys me is the promotion by c2c. “These new trains will begin to really improve the customer experience with features such as pull down tables, charging points, open walk-through carriages and an upgraded PIS” yes, that’s true, but what you fail to add is that you’re not going to bother running them for more than a couple of peak turns each day, so the “customer experience” will remain exactly the same for most on c2c, who will get on nothing but 357s as usual.

Other than the experience on the Saturday trains via Tilbury which are very busy due to passengers for Lakeside shopping centre as a single 720 is a downgrade on pairs of 357s

 

[Peter Sarf]

From the new TT changes the 720/6's will operate all day on Saturdays working the 7 diagrams that run from FENCHRS to SHBRYNS via Ockenden.
Nothing works on Sundays and the weekday service is the same as now. 3 doubles am peak and 2 doubles pm peak.

I take it the Saturday diagrams are all single units ?.

What annoys me is the promotion by c2c. “These new trains will begin to really improve the customer experience with features such as pull down tables, charging points, open walk-through carriages and an upgraded PIS” yes, that’s true, but what you fail to add is that you’re not going to bother running them for more than a couple of peak turns each day, so the “customer experience” will remain exactly the same for most on c2c, who will get on nothing but 357s as usual.

I can only hope that this is the beginning of an upgrade for all the units - a refurbishment. Otherwise what does the word "begin" mean.

Yeah I need to take my reality pills, well syrup (ale) then.

 

[chris11256]

Just had a thought on the limited PM use of 720's in the new timetable. It could be related to the ongoing Basildon platform problem, part of platform 2 has been demolished because of ground problems. As a result 12 & 10 carriage services can't stop there. When this first happened they put a fudge in place by reducing the length of some PM peak services towards Shoeburyness to allow them to still stop as Basildon, while removing the stop of those services that stayed 12 carriage.

 

[samuelmorris]

The 720s don't seem to have operated the services they're allocated to this week anyway, with 12-car 357s in their place. Not sure what that's about.

 

[chris11256]

I'm assuming because of the industrial action. Think the same thing happened during the last overtime ban.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm assuming because of the industrial action. Think the same thing happened during the last overtime ban.

Ah yes of course, the overtime ban would explain it. Presumably they'll reappear when that ends.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ah yes of course, the overtime ban would explain it. Presumably they'll reappear when that ends.

There have only been one of the three pairs of 730/0s out of Euston. Same reason I suspect - not wanting to scrape around for staff that can drive them when they might not be prepared to switch rosters and of course the planners are probably busy coping with lots of other issues during ASOS.

 

[wls1]

Great day today, 720 pair for the loop didn't run as this was 8 car 357s, and 605+611 failed at West Ham with dragging brakes on 1B15 0721 Leigh - Fenchurch blocking the line for over 30 minutes

 

[samuelmorris]

Great day today, 720 pair for the loop didn't run as this was 8 car 357s, and 605+611 failed at West Ham with dragging brakes on 1B15 0721 Leigh - Fenchurch blocking the line for over 30 minutes

I was aboard 1B21. No announcement about why we sat for 30 minutes before leaving. There was one attempt at an automated announcement but they haven't been programmed correctly so they're unintelligible. No manual PA whatsoever, presumably the microphones don't work yet. No visual indication of what was going on as the PIS screens were off. Not the best-managed introduction of a new fleet I've seen but hey, at least I haven't seen a door service panel on the floor left open for a few weeks now...

 

[JonathanH]

From the new TT changes the 720/6's will operate all day on Saturdays working the 7 diagrams that run from FENCHRS to SHBRYNS via Ockenden.

All 8 car 357s today.

 

[Kite159]

All 8 car 357s today.

I wonder if someone in management noticed that shortening trains which serve Lakeside shopping centre on a Saturday close to Christmas wasn't the best of ideas.

 

[chris11256]

I suspect it’s more likely to be driver training, as length wise a 5 carriage 720 is similar to an 8 carriage 357.

 

[samuelmorris]

I suspect it’s more likely to be driver training, as length wise a 5 carriage 720 is similar to an 8 carriage 357.

Not really, it's equivalent to a 6-car, if such a thing existed. An 8-car definitely has more capacity, even if not by that much.

 

[chris11256]

Not really, it's equivalent to a 6-car, if such a thing existed. An 8-car definitely has more capacity, even if not by that much.

My bad! Sorry I did mean capacity is similar.

 

[wls1]

Issues with 720s calling at Barking at the moment, theres meant to be a diagram of 720s running peak time loop trains however they are currently 8car 357s as they call at Barking

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Issues with 720s calling at Barking at the moment, theres meant to be a diagram of 720s running peak time loop trains however they are currently 8car 357s as they call at Barking

Almost everything calls at Barking, so that’s a serious issue.

 

[samuelmorris]

Almost everything calls at Barking, so that’s a serious issue.

Lots of peak services don't, however, and peak services are pretty much exclusively where the 720s are currently being used

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Lots of peak services don't, however, and peak services are pretty much exclusively where the 720s are currently being used

Very poor if it stays that way long term.