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CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

sd0733

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Is there a rule that says when you add a carriage to a train more people turn up? Seems to be more on 1W12 this morning, but good that a 197/1 has been provided.
Possibly more or cheaper advance fare availability now it's booked a 3 car or alternatively it could be total fluke! Does seem some trains are rather random.

Is that due to new units being introduced or has somewhere else lost out? And will the 15x units return once the peak summer season has died down?
A couple of Ebbw diagrams were reverted to 150 or 2x153 to fulfill the Pembrokes.
Unlikely the 15x fleet will return now, their sphere of operations are rapidly dwindling now.
 
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Topological

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Possibly more or cheaper advance fare availability now it's booked a 3 car or alternatively it could be total fluke! Does seem some trains are rather random.


A couple of Ebbw diagrams were reverted to 150 or 2x153 to fulfill the Pembrokes.
Unlikely the 15x fleet will return now, their sphere of operations are rapidly dwindling now.
They beat me to the advances too then hehe, mine was the higher bracket for my trip. Not as many standees into Crewe or Manchester today so that was good.

It makes sense to have the 15x on duties nearer to Cardiff, though it will be some time before competencies lapse and the 15x cannot venture further afield.
 

WirralLine

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Is there a way of knowing if a service operated by a 197 has the business/standard class carriage before it’s arrives at the platform? And is it identifiable from the outside?
As mentioned above checking RTT for the unit number (113 and above). To help find Standard Plus - as the train pulls into the platform look for a black spot/circle under the windscreen. If the leading car has the black spot, this is the DMSL car (with PRM toilet etc) so you need to head to the rear as SP is in the non accessible DMS car. If the leading car has no black circle/spot you know the DMS is leading and SP will be at the front.

114 pulled into Piccadilly heading to Airport the other day and the platform departure screen which had a diagram of the train (3 coachs) shows "1" for 1st class at the front on the train diagram, which I hadn't seen before on 197 operated services!

Hope this helps
 

Jez

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Possibly more or cheaper advance fare availability now it's booked a 3 car or alternatively it could be total fluke! Does seem some trains are rather random.


A couple of Ebbw diagrams were reverted to 150 or 2x153 to fulfill the Pembrokes.
Unlikely the 15x fleet will return now, their sphere of operations are rapidly dwindling now.
I think one of the Maesteg to Cheltenhams appears to be a pair of 153s today as well as one Ebbw Vale-Cardiff. The Newport-Ebbw Vale I believe are still booked for Sprinters anyway.

It makes sense to sub 197s with Sprinters on routes nearer Cardiff (and long term they arent meant to be on Ebbw Vale and Maesteg etc anyway). And a big effort seems to be made to use a 158 on the rare occasions a Sprinters goes on the Marches line. I believe the 15xx Swansea-Chester was a 158 on Monday for example.

Are TfW planning to replace their class 158's that work into Birmingham with class 197's?
They will eventually but I believe this is one of the last routes to move across to 197 as they inter work with the Cambrian.
 

animationmilo

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I think one of the Maesteg to Cheltenhams appears to be a pair of 153s today as well as one Ebbw Vale-Cardiff. The Newport-Ebbw Vale I believe are still booked for Sprinters anyway.

It makes sense to sub 197s with Sprinters on routes nearer Cardiff (and long term they arent meant to be on Ebbw Vale and Maesteg etc anyway). And a big effort seems to be made to use a 158 on the rare occasions a Sprinters goes on the Marches line. I believe the 15xx Swansea-Chester was a 158 on Monday for example.


They will eventually but I believe this is one of the last routes to move across to 197 as they inter work with the Cambrian.
They could put Birmingham over and just get people to change trains in Shrewsbury
They do that enough at the moment with set swaps
 

Jez

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They could put Birmingham over and just get people to change trains in Shrewsbury
They do that enough at the moment with set swaps
There is no point in them doing that whilst there are enough 158s still to cover the existing diagrams and also there are only just enough 197s to cover existing diagrams without them going there when they dont need to yet.
 

Italianauto

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Most importantly In my opinion, and what I think most will be pleased about, they number of announcements will be reduced. They will be removing ‘Welcome on board Transport for Wales’, ‘Thank you for travelling with Transport for Wales’, as well are shortening other announcements where possible
Thank goodness. A needless and endless torrent of spam in one language alone - multiplied by two for the second language. I dread the long gap.......fearing but knowing, the prolonged diatribe is going to be trotted out again.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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They will be removing ‘Welcome on board Transport for Wales’, ‘Thank you for travelling with Transport for Wales’, as well are shortening other announcements where possible.
Fantastic.
Hopefully “Newport Gwent” will be replaced with just “Newport,” and they’ll pack “The next station will be our final stop” in too. Always been wound up by both of those.
 

Sheridan

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Fantastic.
Hopefully “Newport Gwent” will be replaced with just “Newport,” and they’ll pack “The next station will be our final stop” in too. Always been wound up by both of those.

Some variation on the latter is standard on all trains no? Or is it just that particular wording you don’t like? (If so I agree it’s odd.)
 

Lurcheroo

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They could put Birmingham over and just get people to change trains in Shrewsbury
They do that enough at the moment with set swaps

There aren’t sufficient sets to do that.
Some of the ERTMS 197’s are built so if they could be tested and brought into service is that without losing the 158’s and gaining the Machynlleth maintenance depot then there would be no space to keep them anywhere.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Some variation on the latter is standard on all trains no? Or is it just that particular wording you don’t like? (If so I agree it’s odd.)
Only when approaching the terminus, but TfW says it before it’s necessary. For example, “We are now at Bridgend. Thank you for travelling with Transport for Wales. We will be travelling to Cardiff Central… only. The next station will be our final stop.” It doesn’t need to tell people that it’s going to Cardiff and no further while it’s still at Bridgend. Just saying that it’s going to Cardiff is enough. Besides, “only” makes it quite obvious anyway.
 

vicbury

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Fantastic.
Hopefully “Newport Gwent” will be replaced with just “Newport,” and they’ll pack “The next station will be our final stop” in too. Always been wound up by both of those.
Will they also be updating the system so that it makes announcements in English only at stations in England? Having Welsh announcements outside of Wales has never made sense to me
 

Krokodil

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Will they also be updating the system so that it makes announcements in English only at stations in England? Having Welsh announcements outside of Wales has never made sense to me
They have English announcements outside of England so why shouldn't they have Welsh announcements outside of Wales? Welsh people do cross the border you know.

If you board an international train in Europe there will generally be announcements in both languages on both sides of the border.
 

Caaardiff

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Only when approaching the terminus, but TfW says it before it’s necessary. For example, “We are now at Bridgend. Thank you for travelling with Transport for Wales. We will be travelling to Cardiff Central… only. The next station will be our final stop.” It doesn’t need to tell people that it’s going to Cardiff and no further while it’s still at Bridgend. Just saying that it’s going to Cardiff is enough. Besides, “only” makes it quite obvious anyway.
Isn't this also an interpretation that it's non-stop to Cardiff rather than stops between Bridgend and Cardiff?
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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They have English announcements outside of England so why shouldn't they have Welsh announcements outside of Wales? Welsh people do cross the border you know.
The English announcements “outside of England” are to enable to vast majority of customers on the train to understand the announcement. “Welsh people do cross the border” suggests those people would no longer understand announcements if they were in English. English is also one of two official languages of Wales and the Senedd. According to 2021 census, the Welsh speaking population of Wales aged three or older was 17.8% (538,300 people) and nearly three quarters of the population in Wales said they had no Welsh language skills. Of those Welsh speakers, none don’t also speak English.

It’s only used in Wales because the Welsh government want to keep it going, which is fair enough, but there’s no actual need for Welsh announcements in terms of wayfinding, or certainly in England anyway.

If you board an international train in Europe there will generally be announcements in both languages on both sides of the border.
To make sure everyone can understand where they’re going, like how French passengers on a train that’s just arrived into Italy might not know Italian, but as I said, there is nobody that will arrive into Crewe on a Cardiff Manchester service and require Welsh announcements to know where they are.

Isn't this also an interpretation that it's non-stop to Cardiff rather than stops between Bridgend and Cardiff?
Bridgend was just an example. It does it at Valley before Holyhead, Johnston before Milford Hvn, etc. It’s not a major problem, but it does contribute to yet more noise pollution. “Only” is enough.
 

Cambrian359

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17 Jun 2018
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Had my first go on a 197 yesterday and found them better than I was expecting to be honest, particularly as I got myself a forward facing single seat table in standard plus on the return journey!:D
I can’t really comment on the technical stuff but I did notice the 197s had what appeared to be the exact same light fitting that I noticed on the 158s! Are these some sort of standardised emergency light? Given the age difference of the two classes I was surprised to see what seemed like identical fittings.
 

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Jez

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Fantastic.
Hopefully “Newport Gwent” will be replaced with just “Newport,” and they’ll pack “The next station will be our final stop” in too. Always been wound up by both of those.
The Newport Gwent announcement doesn't bother me as its still a lot shorter than some station names! But I agree about the final stop. Its not needed until its approaching the terminus e.g 'we are now approaching Cardiff Central where this train will terminate'. At the proceeding station the usual 'we will be travelling to Cardiff Central' would be fine.

Infact im not even sure if people need to know where the train is terminating - e.g in Neath people dont really need to know 'we will be travelling to Manchester Piccadilly' - I think saying the next station stop would be more useful. e.g. 'welcome to transport for wales... the next stop will be Port Talbot Parkway' would be more useful than saying we are travelling to Manchester.

Also when there is a short gap between stations e.g Baglan and Briton Ferry there is barely enough time for one announcement to be made in both Welsh and English never mind both 'we will be travelling to.....' and 'we are now approaching.....' so we often just have time for the 'we are now approaching....' announcement.
 

WirralLine

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The Newport Gwent annoucement doesnt bother me as its still a lot shorter than some station names! But I agree about the final stop. Its not needed until its approaching the terminus e.g 'we are now approaching Cardiff Central where this train will terminate'. At the proceeding station the usual 'we will be travelling to Cardiff Central' would be fine.

Infact im not even sure if people need to know where the train is terminating - e.g in Neath people dont really need to know 'we will be travelling to Manchester Piccadilly' - I think saying the next station stop would be more useful. e.g. 'welcome to transport for wales... the next stop will be Port Talbot Parkway' would be more useful than saying we are travelling to Manchester.
Drifting off topic slightly but I personally found Merseyrails 507/508 announcements to be a good balance with minimal spam.

"This train is for X, the next station is Y" when at a station. "We are now approaching Y" on approach to a station. There is also an announcement at the start of the route and after major stations which announces the calling pattern.

For interchange stations it is "We are now approaching X, please change here for Northern Line services" or similar.

I find on 197s, when it announces the next station will be the final stop, people start to get up ready (even though the next stop may be 30 minutes away)
 

Northerngirl

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Hopefully they will also be telling the staff to say something when there is an issue, I've been on a few trains that have ended up 30+ minutes late with no acknowledgement, and they frequent don't have any announcements atall
 

oglord

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The Newport Gwent announcement doesn't bother me as its still a lot shorter than some station names!
It bothers the hell out of me, because, firstly the station is not called that, secondly TfW do not serve the station in Essex, and most importantly "Gwent" only existed as a local government area for a mere 22 years from 1974-1996 and it has no relevance in 2024.
 

Dai Corner

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It bothers the hell out of me, because, firstly the station is not called that, secondly TfW do not serve the station in Essex, and most importantly "Gwent" only existed as a local government area for a mere 22 years from 1974-1996 and it has no relevance in 2024.
The King calls his local representative the Lord Lieutenant of Gwent and that's enough proof for me that the place still exists. Newport, Monmouthshire goes even further back, arguably to before the County Borough was created in 1891.

Getting back to the announcements, I agree that the suffix is superfluous as nobody could possibly think they were in Essex rather than south Wales. Does anyone know what the 197s call Garth on the Maesteg branch to distinguish it from the one in Powys?
 

Nick Ashwell

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The King calls his local representative the Lord Lieutenant of Gwent and that's enough proof for me that the place still exists. Newport, Monmouthshire goes even further back, arguably to before the County Borough was created in 1891.

Getting back to the announcements, I agree that the suffix is superfluous as nobody could possibly think they were in Essex rather than south Wales. Does anyone know what the 197s call Garth on the Maesteg branch to distinguish it from the one in Powys?
Which also has a seperate one for Monmouthshire, part of Gwent, so it makes zero sense.

One would hazard a guess at Garth (Mid Glamorgan) as that's what other systems call it.

Newport is an odd one, excluding just ones with a railway station there are a rather large number so Newport (Gwent) isn't too bad if people want to understand where they are. Especially as going Newport (Newport) would make absolutely zero sense to even more people
 

Dai Corner

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Which also has a seperate one for Monmouthshire, part of Gwent, so it makes zero sense.

One would hazard a guess at Garth (Mid Glamorgan) as that's what other systems call it.

Newport is an odd one, excluding just ones with a railway station there are a rather large number so Newport (Gwent) isn't too bad if people want to understand where they are. Especially as going Newport (Newport) would make absolutely zero sense to even more people
The Monmouthshire Lord-lieutenancy was abolished when the Gwent one was created on 1 April 1974.

The official station names are Garth (Bridgend), Garth (Powys) and Newport (South Wales). Mid Glamorgan is an even more obsolete name than Gwent and I wouldn't say either was particularly helpful to include in announcements.
 
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Jez

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It bothers the hell out of me, because, firstly the station is not called that, secondly TfW do not serve the station in Essex, and most importantly "Gwent" only existed as a local government area for a mere 22 years from 1974-1996 and it has no relevance in 2024.
Agreed on all 3 points - however I understand the county is now known as Newport the same as the city is so they probably use Gwent as a name as they could hardly say Newport Newport. But either way its not needed. I know station annoucements just simply say 'Newport' although they often have Newport (South Wales) on screens when listing the calling pattern at stations. That isnt needed either as a train calling at Newport between Cardiff and Cwmbran is obviously going to be the South Wales Newport.

It doesnt bother me however. The long gaps between Welsh and English and also needing to say 'welcome to transport for wales' after every stop annoys me more.

The Monmouthshire Lord-lieutenancy was abolished when the Gwent one was created on 1 April 1974.

The official station names are Garth (Bridgend), Garth (Powys) and Newport (South Wales). Mid Glamorgan is as obsolete a name as Gwent and I wouldn't say either was particularly helpful to include in announcements.
They probably wouldnt say 'Garth Bridgend' on the announcements as it would confuse matters with Bridgend being the name of another station.

I could be wrong as ive only riden a 197 to Maesteg twice but im sure they just say 'we will shortly be arriving at Garth' on the 197s but they do have Mid Glamorgan in brackets on the screen.
 
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oglord

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Which also has a seperate one for Monmouthshire, part of Gwent, so it makes zero sense.

No it hasn't. The problem here is of multiple things having the same name. The 'Monmouthshire' local authority area is not Monmouthshire. It is only the eastern 60% or so. It is not "part of Gwent" because it is a unitary council, with nothing above it. Yes there are some vestigial remnants of the 1974-1996 system, but they won't last forever.

Newport is an odd one, excluding just ones with a railway station there are a rather large number so Newport (Gwent) isn't too bad if people want to understand where they are. Especially as going Newport (Newport) would make absolutely zero sense to even more people
There are not really 'a large number'. There are multiple places called Bradford, Cambridge, Chippenham, Northampton, Swindon, etc but no-one gets confused. What WOULD be confusing is using an obsolete name as some sort of weird compound name. A name that doesn't appear on any maps and hasn't been current for nearly 30 years.

Bring back Newport High Street!
 

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