CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[BillStampy]

The saga continues!

thats odd, i thought they weren't in effect yet, especially if only 3 with standard plus are out in service so far.

 

[The_Train]

thats odd, i thought they weren't in effect yet, especially if only 3 with standard plus are out in service so far.

How can they sell tickets for it when there is such a limited chance of you getting a train that actually has the standard plus section?

 

[sd0733]

I chased TFW for a reply and the response I’ve been given is:



The saga continues!

Interesting, rather different to things that have gone out. No wonder train crew are confused!

How can they sell tickets for it when there is such a limited chance of you getting a train that actually has the standard plus section?

It'll be done as a fully onboard upgrade so no tickets should be pre-sold for standard plus.

 

[BillStampy]

197105 swapped onto Maesteg whilst 150227 goes to Holyhead? Thats a little odd. Still, its the first 197/1 on the Maesteg service so i'll take that. Though that may not be the best for those traveling to Holyhead...

 

[craigybagel]

197105 swapped onto Maesteg whilst 150227 goes to Holyhead? Thats a little odd. Still, its the first 197/1 on the Maesteg service so i'll take that. Though that may not be the best for those traveling to Holyhead...

Could be that one of the crew members working it to Holyhead didn't sign 197s - or that the 197 didn't have enough fuel to get to Holyhead, or otherwise is needed in Cardiff tomorrow and that diagram ends in Holyhead. Lots of potential reasons though I do agree it's not ideal for the passengers.

 

[The_Train]

It'll be done as a fully onboard upgrade so no tickets should be pre-sold for standard plus.

Ah right. If I pay a little extra can they magically upgrade me to a better train?

 

[sd0733]

Ah right. If I pay a little extra can they magically upgrade me to a better train?

If you're on a Standard Plus one you've got 3 coaches....what more could you possibly want

 

[BillStampy]

Could be that one of the crew members working it to Holyhead didn't sign 197s - or that the 197 didn't have enough fuel to get to Holyhead, or otherwise is needed in Cardiff tomorrow and that diagram ends in Holyhead. Lots of potential reasons though I do agree it's not ideal for the passengers.

Could be the crew one, as 197105 is now going to work a run up to Cheltenham and back to Cardiff, which is still a pretty long journey overall. Still not as large as Holyhead but still. Also I can only imagine Standard Plus on a service to Maesteg

 

[SuperLuke2334]

197105 swapped onto Maesteg whilst 150227 goes to Holyhead? Thats a little odd. Still, its the first 197/1 on the Maesteg service so i'll take that. Though that may not be the best for those traveling to Holyhead...

I'm not quite sure what 197105 was doing down south... 99% sure I saw it heading for Holyhead at 1429 through Hereford... considering I was standing by it!

 

[Anonymous10]

I'm not quite sure what 197105 was doing down south... 99% sure I saw it heading for Holyhead at 1429 through Hereford... considering I was standing by it!

It seems to have been swapped in Chester to go back to Cardiff.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

It seems to have been swapped in Chester to go back to Cardiff.

That makes sense!

 

[Caaardiff]

If it's the 1941 that's usually a 158 so probably train crew didn't sign 197s

 

[sd0733]

If it's the 1941 that's usually a 158 so probably train crew didn't sign 197s

That unit also forms a Manchester Airport working off Holyhead next morning which couples to a 158 at Chester. A 197 can't do that so would cause issues. Its the only 15x that stables at Holyhead so can't be swapped out very easily.

 

[Sheridan]

That unit also forms a Manchester Airport working off Holyhead next morning which couples to a 158 at Chester. A 197 can't do that so would cause issues. Its the only 15x that stables at Holyhead so can't be swapped out very easily.

The first Holyhead-Birmingham Intl is booked a 158 as well. Interestingly yesterday that 0452 Holyhead-Manchester Airport was a 197/1 yesterday and remained so beyond Chester. Presumably the weekend engineering works meant a bit of juggling needed to be done.

 

[Jez]

I am a massive fan of the 197s as you all know, but im not sure i would upgrade to standard plus. If all you get is a slightly more comfortable seat and the lamps im not sure it will be worth the money to upgrade. Possibly if it was very overcrowded, full and standing in standard class and there were seats available in standard plus I would but id be happy I think in standard class if it was a fairly quiet train.

 

[sd0733]

The first Holyhead-Birmingham Intl is booked a 158 as well. Interestingly yesterday that 0452 Holyhead-Manchester Airport was a 197/1 yesterday and remained so beyond Chester. Presumably the weekend engineering works meant a bit of juggling needed to be done.

So it does !
Yes could well have, as both the Birmingham and the Manchester are scheduled to have attachments at Chester.

 

[Caaardiff]

I am a massive fan of the 197s as you all know, but im not sure i would upgrade to standard plus. If all you get is a slightly more comfortable seat and the lamps im not sure it will be worth the money to upgrade. Possibly if it was very overcrowded, full and standing in standard class and there were seats available in standard plus I would but id be happy I think in standard class if it was a fairly quiet train.

I think the reality is it's going to be very difficult, and potentially confusing thing to manage.
If it's not possible to pre-book standard premium, then on board sales might be few and far between on certain routes. If there is a full and standing train, would guards be more likely to just allow passengers to use SP or would they guard the door and sell what they can to fill SP? With no on board "first" staff as such, it's just the guard and possible catering staff managing it, and as you say, is the upgrade really worth it in normal circumstances? Does SP premium entitle passengers to extra drinks or snacks? Which i'm guessing would be stored in the catering cupboard even if there isn't any catering staff on board.
It could be a money spinner, people pay for extra legroom seats on Airlines for a few inches more legroom. The wider seats and 2+1 seating may be attractive to some. Does anyone know if XC sell many First seats on their Cardiff - Nottingham services?

In the long run, many of these services will be going from 2-3 car to 4-5 car, so although you'd hope it would increase demand and encourage people back to the railway, I can't imagine there being too many full and standing services if the grand plans work.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

197105, 197111 and 197019 are all on Cheltenham Maesteg today, with 158834 and a peak pair of 153s. Not a single 150 in sight!

 

[BillStampy]

197105, 197111 and 197019 are all on Cheltenham Maesteg today, with 158834 and a peak pair of 153s. Not a single 150 in sight!

That's certainly interesting! With 197106 on the Holyhead run, it is due to 5 car a Manchester service so that'll change later around the 153 time, so it is possible to swap onto that. No promises though.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I am a massive fan of the 197s as you all know, but im not sure i would upgrade to standard plus. If all you get is a slightly more comfortable seat and the lamps im not sure it will be worth the money to upgrade. Possibly if it was very overcrowded, full and standing in standard class and there were seats available in standard plus I would but id be happy I think in standard class if it was a fairly quiet train.

That’s fair as it’s down to people’s personal preference. The upgrade fee is very reasonable so I could see many being happy to pay a little extra for the bigger more comfortable seat, especially on longer journeys.

I think the reality is it's going to be very difficult, and potentially confusing thing to manage.
If it's not possible to pre-book standard premium, then on board sales might be few and far between on certain routes. If there is a full and standing train, would guards be more likely to just allow passengers to use SP or would they guard the door and sell what they can to fill SP? With no on board "first" staff as such, it's just the guard and possible catering staff managing it, and as you say, is the upgrade really worth it in normal circumstances? Does SP premium entitle passengers to extra drinks or snacks? Which i'm guessing would be stored in the catering cupboard even if there isn't any catering staff on board.
It could be a money spinner, people pay for extra legroom seats on Airlines for a few inches more legroom. The wider seats and 2+1 seating may be attractive to some. Does anyone know if XC sell many First seats on their Cardiff - Nottingham services?

In the long run, many of these services will be going from 2-3 car to 4-5 car, so although you'd hope it would increase demand and encourage people back to the railway, I can't imagine there being too many full and standing services if the grand plans work.

It shouldn’t be too difficult, most people will move or pay when (hopefully politely) informed.

Nope, no free snacks or anything like that as far as I know. You are just paying for the bigger seat, hence the reduced price vs 1st class.

 

[Jez]

That’s fair as it’s down to people’s personal preference. The upgrade fee is very reasonable so I could see many being happy to pay a little extra for the bigger more comfortable seat, especially on longer journeys.


It shouldn’t be too difficult, most people will move or pay when (hopefully politely) informed.

Nope, no free snacks or anything like that as far as I know. You are just paying for the bigger seat, hence the reduced price vs 1st class.

It depends on how much the upgrade would cost and how much ive already paid for my ticket. If id booked a very cheap advance for example id be more likely to upgrade. If it was a few pounds id most likely do it but not £20+ extra.

I think TFW need to be clear and concise about the exact amount the upgrade will cost between various stations. At the moment ive not seen anything official about pricing.

 

[CHAPS2034]

To add to the confusion over classes of travel, I received a marketing e-mail from TFW on Monday which contained the following

Why not travel in style and treat yourself to TfW First Class?

With First Class services available on our Cardiff to Holyhead, and Swansea to Manchester routes, you can enjoy more space to relax, delicious fresh food* and our greatest comfort for all your getaways. So, why not make it TfW First Class.

*Snacks are inclusive in the cost of a First Class train ticket. Upgrades to full dining are available to purchase on board from the First Class host. Full T&Cs: tfw.wales/first-class

So there we go. They seem to be doing a good job of confusing the passengers, and First Class fares are not bookable on their Manchester trains...

I travelled on 197118 in the posh bit from Stockport to Manchester the other day. There was a ticket check and my TfGM bus pass was not questioned.

 

[AdamWW]

To add to the confusion over classes of travel, I received a marketing e-mail from TFW on Monday which contained the following

So there we go. They seem to be doing a good job of confusing the passengers, and First Class fares are not bookable on their Manchester trains...

I travelled on 197118 in the posh bit from Stockport to Manchester the other day. There was a ticket check and my TfGM bus pass was not questioned.

I think in general TfW could do a bit better at communications. (At least I hope so - it would be depressing to think that this is actually the best that's possible).

 

[Caaardiff]

https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/ticket-types/standard-plus

Just to add to the confusion. There's a whole list of confusing routes, including Birmingham and Cambrian which currently don't see 197s and will unlikely see many 3 cars, if any at all.

 

[CHAPS2034]

197118 is 25 minutes late arriving at Bridgend due to a fault, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they swap it at Cardiff rather than keeping it on the Manchester service. That said, they may want to get it up north first and then swap it at Crewe so it can go to Chester perhaps.

Went all the way to Manchester and was on time at Piccadilly. Returned to Cardiff as 1V64 on time virtually all the way.

The northbound, 1W22, picked up a lot of time after Cwmbran (23L). Hereford was 14L, Shrewsbury 3L and on time at Crewe.

There appears to only be 5 minutes of engineering allowances between Cardiff and Crewe, so presumably the superior performance of the 197s is helping make up time.

I have noticed quite a few instances of northbound services similarly picking up time when a 197 is operating. If picking one up in Shrewsbury, just because it is pretty late at Hereford, don't assume you will have longer in the pub waiting for it!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Went all the way to Manchester and was on time at Piccadilly. Returned to Cardiff as 1V64 on time virtually all the way.

The northbound, 1W22, picked up a lot of time after Cwmbran (23L). Hereford was 14L, Shrewsbury 3L and on time at Crewe.

There appears to only be 5 minutes of engineering allowances between Cardiff and Crewe, so presumably the superior performance of the 197s is helping make up time.

Nope, it wasn’t the superior performance, but probably the announcement saying “This train will now call at Newport, Hereford and Shrewsbury only.”

 

[Caaardiff]

Went all the way to Manchester and was on time at Piccadilly. Returned to Cardiff as 1V64 on time virtually all the way.

The northbound, 1W22, picked up a lot of time after Cwmbran (23L). Hereford was 14L, Shrewsbury 3L and on time at Crewe.

There appears to only be 5 minutes of engineering allowances between Cardiff and Crewe, so presumably the superior performance of the 197s is helping make up time.

I have noticed quite a few instances of northbound services similarly picking up time when a 197 is operating. If picking one up in Shrewsbury, just because it is pretty late at Hereford, don't assume you will have longer in the pub waiting for it!

Common practice is to not call at some stations on that route in order to make it into Manchester for the return working.

 

[AdamWW]

https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/ticket-types/standard-plus

Just to add to the confusion. There's a whole list of confusing routes, including Birmingham and Cambrian which currently don't see 197s and will unlikely see many 3 cars, if any at all.

Yes - one approach would have been not to list routes that aren't likely to see 197s for many months, and suggest checking the page before travel to see if further routes have been added.

It's an interesting approach - we can't tell you beforehand if you train will have standard premium, just get on and see...

 

[Caaardiff]

It's an interesting approach - we can't tell you beforehand if you train will have standard premium, just get on and see...

It doesn't even go to that level of detail.

It such a vage approach no-one will ever understand it properly. It's only a small number of the fleet that will have it and it could turn up anywhere, which is contrary to the original plans of using them alongside the Mk4 on Manchester routes.

Another overpromise and underdeliver from TFW.

It's that list of routes that gets me. West Wales-Swansea. Swansea-Severn Tunnel, Newport-Crewe/Manchester.

What about Severn Tunnel - Cheltenham?
Cardiff-Chester/Manchester.

Why not just list Pembroke/Fishguard-Cardiff/Swansea, Milford Haven - Manchester, Cardiff-Holyhead, Manchester - Holyhead/Llandudno.

Job done.

 

[CHAPS2034]

Common practice is to not call at some stations on that route in order to make it into Manchester for the return working

Thank you. Of benefit to those of us at the north end of the route - not so good for those at intermediate stations on the Marches.

I think in general TfW could do a bit better at communications. (At least I hope so - it would be depressing to think that this is actually the best that's possible).

They should be doing a lot better.

This is not an operational incident which is evolving by the minute and information is rapidly changing. It's a static situation at present, so it should be possible to show this information correctly; it's basic communication.