Caledonian Sleeper

[jagardner1984]

I'm not going to go any further as I don't want to drift the thread away from the core topic. It will be interesting to see how the whole thing is handled operationally as we go forward and now that they are slightly more directly responsible and accountable for it if they listen to the views of those of us and there are good few in this category who want to be able to use it as a viable affordable option for overnight travel between particularly rural Scotland and London and not as a five-star hotel on wheels

Don’t disagree with you in the central point at all.

However, with the service broadly full at current pricing …..

https://twitter.com/seatsixtyone/status/1672535020131450880?s=46&t=CESmL_69gjQINF_blRdVJg

Whilst charging £4.50 for a supermarket yoghurt ….

https://twitter.com/missbecsbell/status/1671760584264564739?s=46&t=CESmL_69gjQINF_blRdVJg

And still the subsidy per journey has been reported in some quarters at £164 per journey - as discussed in Parliament …

Caledonian Sleeper Service

– in the Scottish Parliament 12 January 2023

www.theyworkforyou.com

It is hard to see where the economies come at such a scale as to achieve the very laudable goal of improving the affordability of fares. Popular whilst sacking CEO’s might be - you’ll need to find an awful lot of them to bring down that £164 by much.

To be honest - much as I think some of the old school sleeper hosts were absolutely brilliant - my interaction with them now generally involves them ticking a sheet on a clipboard, and being handed a bottle of warm orange juice in the morning. Sometimes there is a hello with Either of these interactions. I’m not sure how many hosts are on a Lowlander service - and obviously the club car is I assume revenue generating - but I wonder whether a Scotrail revenue protection doing the ticket check - and a drinks voucher for some partner cafe or other - might offer some opportunities for some roles to shift to other parts of CS / Scotrail. Or indeed whether running Glasgow an hour earlier via Edinburgh (so all shunting happens in one place) might also bring some savings whilst still offering reasonable timings.

I’d hate to see it go - but clearly there are many demands on the subsidy available to Scotland’s railways more generally. I suspect however that the unique nature of the service and its appeal to tourists … that many many of them bring an awful lot more than £164 into Scotland’s economy, not all of which would seamlessly transfer to Ryanair.

“Subsidy” is always a very complex picture.

 

[Bald Rick]

However, with the service broadly full at current pricing …..

https://twitter.com/seatsixtyone/status/1672535020131450880?s=46&t=CESmL_69gjQINF_blRdVJg

interesting choice of pic on that tweet!

I suspect however that the unique nature of the service and its appeal to tourists … that many many of them bring an awful lot more than £164 into Scotland’s economy, not all of which would seamlessly transfer to Ryanair.

Whilst I agree with everything you said, it would be interesting to know what proportion of sleeper travellers would not make the journey at all if the sleeper was removed. I suspect it would be a small minority - most would transfer to day trains or air.

And of course for every sleeper travelling tourist bringing in cash to Scotland, there are also sleeper travelling Scots taking their money out to spend on the Sassenachs

 

[CloudyManday]

interesting choice of pic on that tweet!




Whilst I agree with everything you said, it would be interesting to know what proportion of sleeper travellers would not make the journey at all if the sleeper was removed. I suspect it would be a small minority - most would transfer to day trains or air.

And of course for every sleeper travelling tourist bringing in cash to Scotland, there are also sleeper travelling Scots taking their money out to spend on the Sassenachs

We fall under the ones that just no longer make the journey. We used to finish school and work on a Friday, go and catch dinner somewhere and then jump the sleeper to London from Glasgow. Same return on Sunday and straight to school. Was a great way to spend a weekend in London or jump Eurostar to Paris or Disneyland, where we had annual passes. Used to see quite a few families doing similar. With the prices now, we just no longer do it. Last journey was October 2021 and it's increased further in price since then. Shame as we absolutely loved the sleeper, but we're not the market that they want. The tourists and business travellers will just find other ways if the sleeper is cancelled.

 

[alistairlees]

I don't think that the Scottish Government has taken over Caledonian Sleeper with an aim of generating headlines such as "Scottish Government ends Caledonian Sleeper service".

 

[zwk500]

I don't think that the Scottish Government has taken over Caledonian Sleeper with an aim of generating headlines such as "Scottish Government ends Caledonian Sleeper service".

Tbf the Scottish Government presumably also didn't buy a 120k Motorhome with the aim of generating headlines such as 'Nicola Sturgeon Arrested.'

 

[43066]

Tbf the Scottish Government presumably also didn't buy a 120k Motorhome with the aim of generating headlines such as 'Nicola Sturgeon Arrested.'

Possibly the single most satisfying headline I’ve ever read!

 

[cb a1]

My understanding is that the motor home was bought by the SNP, not the Scottish Government.
Two very different entities.

 

[Bald Rick]

Tbf the Scottish Government presumably also didn't buy a 120k Motorhome with the aim of generating headlines such as 'Nicola Sturgeon Arrested.'

post of the week!

 

[fandroid]

And of course for every sleeper travelling tourist bringing in cash to Scotland, there are also sleeper travelling Scots taking their money out to spend on the Sassenachs

No, all those berths are taken by the tourists at the end of their stay

 

[zwk500]

My understanding is that the motor home was bought by the SNP, not the Scottish Government.
Two very different entities.

Yes they are two different entities, but that would have obscured the point of the post. Whatever aims politicians may have when making decisions, they do not have sole control over what happens next.

(there's a separate point about the level of state capture by the SNP in Scotland, but that's well off-topic).

 

[Blindtraveler]

Is anyone on here booked to travel tonight? If so it will be interesting to see if the occasion is marked in any way, operationally this will absolutely not be the case but will they display any kind of promotional material such as operated by ScotRail or traveling on this service is a vote for the SNP promotions? The second one is a joke by the way

 

[alistairlees]

Is anyone on here booked to travel tonight? If so it will be interesting to see if the occasion is marked in any way, operationally this will absolutely not be the case but will they display any kind of promotional material such as operated by ScotRail or traveling on this service is a vote for the SNP promotions? The second one is a joke by the way

It’s not operated by ScotRail

 

[GordonT]

Tbf the Scottish Government presumably also didn't buy a 120k Motorhome with the aim of generating headlines such as 'Nicola Sturgeon Arrested.'

Perhaps the Motorhome could be gifted to the Caledonian Sleeper operation for stand-by use in disruption

 

[Snow1964]

BBC news story of going to public ownership

The Caledonian Sleeper rail service has been formally taken over by the Scottish government.
Ministers decided last year to nationalise the rail franchise and terminate Serco's contract seven years early.
The Scottish government said it was looking to build on the Caledonian Sleeper's recent increase in passenger numbers.
Unions have welcomed the service being taken into public ownership.
The move comes after ScotRail was last year returned to public ownership for the first time in 25 years.
The current sleeper franchise was awarded to Serco in a deal worth £800m and had been due to run from 2015 to 2030.
The decision to end Serco's contract came after the company tried to renegotiate the deal through a "rebase clause", to put the loss-making service on "a more sustainable financial footing".

Caledonian Sleeper goes back into public ownership

The Scottish government has taken control of the overnight rail service between Scotland and England.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Cowley]

Ok. No more motorhome talk please! I have a vague feeling that it might not be very on topic…

 

[popeter45]

statement from Caledonian Sleeper is that for now nothing is changing at all at leats for now

 

[Davester50]

I’d hate to see it go - but clearly there are many demands on the subsidy available to Scotland’s railways more generally. I suspect however that the unique nature of the service and its appeal to tourists … that many many of them bring an awful lot more than £164 into Scotland’s economy, not all of which would seamlessly transfer to Ryanair.

“Subsidy” is always a very complex picture.

That's assuming that every £164 is going from London to Scotland
There will be plenty whose origin is Scotland to London.

 

[Leisurefirst]

I have forthcoming journey to refund now that I know I don't have to he back in London first thing in the morning.
Out of interest, how does that work?
Does the refund come out of Serco's pocket still?
(Booked under their operation, cancelling under public ownership).

 

[JonathanH]

Does the refund come out of Serco's pocket still?
(Booked under their operation, cancelling under public ownership).

No, everything gets passed on with the operation. The money you have paid for the ticket needs to fund the service running when you were due to travel. It is all an accounting matter in any case.

 

[philthetube]

Perhaps the Motorhome could be gifted to the Caledonian Sleeper operation for stand-by use in disruption

Ok. No more motorhome talk please! I have a vague feeling that it might not be very on topic…

seems on topic to me

 

[BRX]

GB Railfreight announces seven-year deal to support new era for Caledonian Sleeper - GBRf

GB Railfreight (GBRf) has agreed on a seven-year deal with Caledonian Sleeper Ltd to continue hauling the Caledonian Sleeper coaches. The contract, effective from 25 June, comes into effect following the service entering into public sector control by the Scottish Government.


The services will see GBRf support the new era of the Caledonian Sleeper, operating seven trains a night, six nights a week, hauling the Mk5 coaches between London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness, Aberdeen & Fort William.


Operations will continue to use Class 92s and Class 73s to haul the service, with the length of the new agreement offering the potential opportunity to consider incorporating GBRf’s new bi-mode Class 99 locomotives in the future. Utilising the Class 99s would create a significant reduction in the volume of carbon created by the service.


Having provided services since 2015, this agreement remains in line with the original 15-year contract length – until 2030. At a time when the service is seeing the highest levels of demand, the continuity of GB Railfreight’s service will minimise disruption for guests during this transition period for the Caledonian Sleeper.

Interesting that they mention class 99s as an option for the future.

 

[popeter45]

Interesting that they mention class 99s as an option for the future.

would make the pool of locos needed smaller as wouldnt need as many spares and as well as using original Euston loco for Inverness (1-2 less loco depending on if a single 99 on diesel can pull 8 mark 5's) you could also use the loco that dragged the Glasgow portion into central from the depo for the aberdeen portion (2 less loco as one less 92 and one less 73)

 

[cf111]

I think it would have been better if the Sleeper had been folded back in to Scotrail but operated as a different public facing brand. If there were problems, at least in Scotland, then Scotrail staff could be tasked to assist if need be for example. There are probably good reasons for not doing so I suppose.

 

[zwk500]

I think it would have been better if the Sleeper had been folded back in to Scotrail but operated as a different public facing brand. If there were problems, at least in Scotland, then Scotrail staff could be tasked to assist if need be for example. There are probably good reasons for not doing so I suppose.

Is this not exactly what they are doing?

 

[43096]

would make the pool of locos needed smaller as wouldnt need as many spares and as well as using original Euston loco for Inverness (1-2 less loco depending on if a single 99 on diesel can pull 8 mark 5's) you could also use the loco that dragged the Glasgow portion into central from the depo for the aberdeen portion (2 less loco as one less 92 and one less 73)

The 75mph top speed of the 99 south of Edinburgh would be a restriction, though, and they’d still be running round for the Inverness portion. Better to stick with the 92 south of Edinburgh, I reckon.

 

[JamieL]

The Government has created the Caledonian Sleeper Ltd as the entity to run the CS rather than merging it with ScotRail Trains Ltd.

 

[ajrm]

would make the pool of locos needed smaller as wouldnt need as many spares and as well as using original Euston loco for Inverness (1-2 less loco depending on if a single 99 on diesel can pull 8 mark 5's) you could also use the loco that dragged the Glasgow portion into central from the depo for the aberdeen portion (2 less loco as one less 92 and one less 73)

How does that work? The Aberdeen portion and the ECS of the Glasgow portion are running at the same time on opposite sides of the country!

 

[popeter45]

How does that work? The Aberdeen portion and the ECS of the Glasgow portion are running at the same time on opposite sides of the country!

the loco departs glasgow 2330 ish after the glasglow portion has departed, would get to Edinburgh at 0100 ish read for the highlander at 0330 ish

 

[cf111]

Is this not exactly what they are doing?

No, it is running as a separate company albeit also run by the government.

Caledonian Sleeper Franchise Update June 2023 | Caledonian Sleeper

Caledonian Sleeper trains offer luxury train travel whether you’re travelling for business or pleasure. Discover Scotland on the new Caledonian Sleeper trains.

www.sleeper.scot

Will Caledonian Sleeper be merged back into ScotRail?
Caledonian Sleeper will operate as a separate business, as part of Scottish Rail Holdings (SRH).

 

[norbitonflyer]

the loco departs glasgow 2330 ish after the glasglow portion has departed, would get to Edinburgh at 0100 ish read for the highlander at 0330 ish

I don't think that saves a loco though - what you propose, I think, is that one loco runs the ECS from Polmadie to Glasgow, and then runs over to Edinburgh to work the portion to Aberdeen. Another loco would be needed to work the portion from Aberdeen and then run over to Glasgow tio take the ECS to Polmadie.
At present one loco runs both Aberdeen portions and another works both ECS workings.
So two locos are needed, whichever way you do it.