Campaign for Malton-Pickering reopening to allow services to Whitby

[IanXC]

THE reinstatement of a rail link which could see trains running from York through Ryedale to Whitby is now the centre of a petition.

Reopening the link between Malton and Pickering has been mooted ever since the line was closed in 1965. Now Coun Philip Trumper of Whitby Town Council wants people to sign his online petition.

He said: “I am not expecting thousands and thousands of people to sign it, but I would like to see it back on the agenda. I know there’s a lot of interest at Whitby Town Council and in Malton and Norton.

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10102415.Petition_calls_for_Ryedale_rail_link_to_reopen/

A relatively short (less than 10 miles) reopening proposal, which releases much larger benefits. It is, however fraught with questions over how services would be operated with/over NYMR, I wonder if these could be overcome if funding was secured?

 

[johnnychips]

Any track built over, or bridges removed?

 

[David Dunning]

The centre of Pickering is a bit of an issue. It's hard to imagine how a double track railway every made its way thru there now.

 

[Ivo]

Would this necessitate the reopening of the second platform at Malton?

 

[Wath Yard]

North Yorkshire County Council is kind of behind it...

Coun Trumper said the reinstatement could see the possibility of steam trains running between York and Whitby, though he said bosses at the historic North Yorkshire Moors Railway, were against having mainline trains using a section of their track.

With resounding backing like that I can really see this plan becoming a reality.

 

[bluenoxid]

With resounding backing like that I can really see this plan becoming a reality.

Sadly, if that is there view of the matter then this "vital" link will remain without rails.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Shame that some people at the NYMR have gone beyond the initial remit of saving the line and now see it as their toy.

Despite that, build a station for pickering on the alignment but ignore road crossing for now. And provide an hourly Pickering, Malton, Haxby, York service. Then should NYMR come round (having safeguarded a route across town) you build across.

 

[ainsworth74]

Interesting, I hadn't every really thought about this as being a possible reopening but it does make some sense (and once they'd finished rebuilding that they could carry on to Beverly via Market Weighton . Though as others have identified unless there's a bit more mobilised support it's not going to get anywhere.

I wonder what impact this would have on the Coastliner buses? I'd imagine the railway would have the advantage in terms of end to end journey and frequency if it ended up being hourly. Also the interaction of the NYMR would take some significant managing.

 

[MarkyT]

Would this necessitate the reopening of the second platform at Malton?

I would think the best solution there would be to provide or reinstate a two faced island for national rail services on the south side, linked to the station buildings by a new footbridge. NYMR would take over the existing platform and there should be plenty of room for a run-round loop alongside. From Malton, two independent single lines would run to Rillington Junction, where the NYMR would diverge and the Scarborough line would revert to double track. A LH crossover between the 2 lines to the east of Malton could allow through running from York onto the NYMR and thus to Whitby.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Shame that some people at the NYMR have gone beyond the initial remit of saving the line and now see it as their toy.

Despite that, build a station for pickering on the alignment but ignore road crossing for now. And provide an hourly Pickering, Malton, Haxby, York service. Then should NYMR come round (having safeguarded a route across town) you build across.

I don't think this is the case at all. I spoke to some NYMR people recently and asked about this. Their view was that it would be great for them and the area but it would cost a lot and they have just finished re installation the roof at Pickering and need to fund bridge repairs.

The section through Pickering town would be an issue although it is not imposable and if we are talking of mainline services running to Whitby then a diversion and a Pickering Parkway station to the east might be possible.

It should be remembered that when the NYMR was just coming about Pickering council wanted it to be relocated to terminate on the outskirts of the town with the existing station being demolished and turned into a car park and housing.

 

[Ploughman]

A number of years back a report was issued.
Costings may have changed but the majority of points in here are still valid.

https://www3.northyorks.gov.uk/n2rail/report5/report5.pdf

I do not think that there is any way that the NYMR would get behind such a scheme. Purely on the financial side it is beyond their resources likewise similar talk on another thread about taking on the Esk Valley.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I don't think this is the case at all. I spoke to some NYMR people recently and asked about this. Their view was that it would be great for them and the area but it would cost a lot and they have just finished re installation the roof at Pickering and need to fund bridge repairs.

The section through Pickering town would be an issue although it is not imposable and if we are talking of mainline services running to Whitby then a diversion and a Pickering Parkway station to the east might be possible.

It should be remembered that when the NYMR was just coming about Pickering council wanted it to be relocated to terminate on the outskirts of the town with the existing station being demolished and turned into a car park and housing.

Don't know who you've been speaking to, but evidently there has been a counter piece in one of the local papers by the Moors GM, explaining how damaging such a reopening would be.

In short, this one comes round every few years, with someone making some hot air about reopening. The NYMR hasn't got the money to do it, and would only add a significant maintenance liability if they did. Plus, the likely ticket price would probably be prohibitive, and the journey time too long for a family day out. (Remember the NYMR's primary market is tourist, NOT enthusiasts).

The 18 miles of the NYMR is largely at capacity; the Esk Valley line into Whitby certainly is. Where would the extra trains go?
Where would you find the mythical steam locos to work these extra services? There is something of a national shortage right now! Where would yopu find the people to operate them with?

The only way it could happen, is via a publicly funded reopening of the whole route to NR standards. Even then, it would still be a tortuous route, as it never has been much more than the present day permitted speeds. That would mean the mainline services getting priority, which would effectively mean the end of the NYMR. Be careful what you wish for!

This is without considering capacity issues at York, which is chocker as it is!

A lot of hot air by politicians, who don't have a full grasp of the issues.

 

[ainsworth74]

This is without considering capacity issues at York, which is chocker as it is!

Unless you're going beyond York I can't imagine that there would be much issue slotting a service into platform 2 every hour.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Unless you're going beyond York I can't imagine that there would be much issue slotting a service into platform 2 every hour.

Are we talking about units, or the steam hauled stuff that the politicians were, which would need to be shunted, with the consequent knock on to everything else.

 

[ainsworth74]

Are we talking about units, or the steam hauled stuff that the politicians were, which would need to be shunted, with the consequent knock on to everything else.

I was talking about units! I hadn't realised they were suggesting steam trains, in which case you're right capacity would be an issue.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Don't know who you've been speaking to, but evidently there has been a counter piece in one of the local papers by the Moors GM, explaining how damaging such a reopening would be.

In short, this one comes round every few years, with someone making some hot air about reopening. The NYMR hasn't got the money to do it, and would only add a significant maintenance liability if they did. Plus, the likely ticket price would probably be prohibitive, and the journey time too long for a family day out. (Remember the NYMR's primary market is tourist, NOT enthusiasts).

The 18 miles of the NYMR is largely at capacity; the Esk Valley line into Whitby certainly is. Where would the extra trains go?
Where would you find the mythical steam locos to work these extra services? There is something of a national shortage right now! Where would yopu find the people to operate them with?

The only way it could happen, is via a publicly funded reopening of the whole route to NR standards. Even then, it would still be a tortuous route, as it never has been much more than the present day permitted speeds. That would mean the mainline services getting priority, which would effectively mean the end of the NYMR. Be careful what you wish for!

This is without considering capacity issues at York, which is chocker as it is!

A lot of hot air by politicians, who don't have a full grasp of the issues.

Well the NYMR guys I talked to were at its stall at the railway event this year at York. Presumably they were not complete loonies.

The way I would want it to happen is as a national rail link with DMUs, not as just extending the steam services. Obviously this is not going to happen anytime soon and a lot of issues would have to be sorted out if it ever were to.

There used to be considerably more than four trains a day along the Esk Valley line so presumably capacity could be increased.

As at York there is a bay platform joining the Whitby line so not sure how York being "Choker" has any bearing on this.

Looking at the NYMR timetable I am not sure how a DMU once an hour each way not stopping at some of the NYMR stations would be an insurmountable issue.

As I have said its not going to happen anytime soon but many of the recently announced rail investment programes would have been denounced as impossible not that many years ago. Be careful what you scoff at.

 

[Tomnick]

Looking at the NYMR timetable I am not sure how a DMU once an hour each way not stopping at some of the NYMR stations would be an insurmountable issue.

The long single line from Levisham to Goathland might present a significant barrier to running more than the existing 1tph each way...?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Id have it as a DMU service, none of this messing around with steam engines stuff, thats what makes it expensive. Theres nothing to stop a two hourly DMU interworking with steam services. With the upgrades to the linespeed coming from funding sources that are not the NYMR.

 

[JohnCarlson]

The long single line from Levisham to Goathland might present a significant barrier to running more than the existing 1tph each way...?

Indeed but if the line speed were to be increased to 40mph and if there were to be a passing lop installed in might be surmounted.

For clarification I am talking of a well funded public project not a sticky take and string exercise and I realise neither the NYMR or the local authorities have anything like the money needed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Id have it as a DMU service, none of this messing around with steam engines stuff, thats what makes it expensive. Theres nothing to stop a two hourly DMU interworking with steam services. With the upgrades to the linespeed coming from funding sources that are not the NYMR.

Exactly!

 

[Sidious]

North Yorkshire County Council have been backing various rail re-openings for many years, including York - Beverley, Skipton - Colne and Harrogate - Ripon, and while high on enthusiastic press releases, they are somewhat lacking on funding commitments.

Arguably the highest profile candidate for re-opening is Skipton - Colne, and despite enthusiastic support over 10-15 years from NYCC inter alia, not a great deal in the way of meaningful progress has been made.

While the relatively short missing link between Malton and Pickering would be a useful connection, I personally think that this is a non-starter. The cost would be extremely high and unlikely to meet any current cost to benefit calculation, especially given that there is a very low intermediate population between the towns.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would think the best solution there would be to provide or reinstate a two faced island for national rail services on the south side, linked to the station buildings by a new footbridge. NYMR would take over the existing platform and there should be plenty of room for a run-round loop alongside. From Malton, two independent single lines would run to Rillington Junction, where the NYMR would diverge and the Scarborough line would revert to double track. A LH crossover between the 2 lines to the east of Malton could allow through running from York onto the NYMR and thus to Whitby.

There used to be two through platforms at Malton, plus an additional bay platform which mainly handled the local Whitby services. Let us not forget that Malton once also had services to Driffield running to and from this railway station.

I wonder what Network Rail would give a costings at 2012/3 prices for the complete track and ancillary works reinstatement from Rillington Junction onwards, using the current costs figure said to be needed for the reinstatement of the Todmorden Chord as a benchmark comparison.

I note the comments made with regard to the Yorkshire Coastliner service earlier in this thread, as not only the main settlements of both Leeds and York, but numerous other settlements, not all on the line of this rail proposal, are served by this service. The link is already made by this service, without the need for the costs that surely would be required should this railway reopening proposal ever come to fruition.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Indeed but if the line speed were to be increased to 40mph and if there were to be a passing lop installed in might be surmounted.

See what I have posted above. The 40mph is likely to be impossible in civil engineering terms. The line was only ever 35 in some places, and some of the curves are right on the limit now. Double track would help with capacity, but you would loose all the heritage signaling, etc.

The frequency of the NYMR timetable is pretty much at capacity, especially peak season. It is also at the limit of a single signal box shift per day. The EVL timetable is governed by the limitations of the NSTR system. Think one train per hour between Glaisdale and Whitby. Proper signals down there would be great, but you know what that would cost!

 

[JohnCarlson]

There used to be two through platforms at Malton, plus an additional bay platform which mainly handled the local Whitby services. Let us not forget that Malton once also had services to Driffield running to and from this railway station.

I wonder what Network Rail would give a costings at 2012/3 prices for the complete track and ancillary works reinstatement from Rillington Junction onwards, using the current costs figure said to be needed for the reinstatement of the Todmorden Chord as a benchmark comparison.

I note the comments made with regard to the Yorkshire Coastliner service earlier in this thread, as not only the main settlements of both Leeds and York, but numerous other settlements, not all on the line of this rail proposal, are served by this service. The link is already made by this service, without the need for the costs that surely would be required should this railway reopening proposal ever come to fruition.

Well you could make that argument with lots of other rail reopenings. "Don't put the track back or the buses will go out of business." But this is the wrong forum for that surely.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well you could make that argument with lots of other rail re-openings. "Don't put the track back or the buses will go out of business." But this is the wrong forum for that surely.

Despite your simplistic riposte to my posting, you appear not at all to have grasped the point that I was at pains to point out, so I will restate my position.

I totally refute the supposition that you totally and utterly incorrectly assumed that was in my mind, as shown in the boldness-effected part of the quote above. You cannot just make up a scenario to suit your own point of view, then make strenuous defences against it.

I see matters as below:-

1)...There is the total cost at 2012/3 costing basis of the entire rail reinstatement with all ancillary costings, such as consultancy fees, to be borne in mind. The matter of the Todmorden Chord reinstatement showed it was just not the basic infrastructural costs that went up to make the final project costings.

2)..The Yorkshire Coastliner is already running, serving the settlements (and more) en route. No extra costs from this entity will be incurred.

 

[A0]

Given the NYMR aren't likely to be supportive - after all they own Pickering to Grosmont and have done for circa 40 years, perhaps a better idea would be for the politicians to look at the Scarboro' to Whitby line or Battersby to Northallerton for reopening. Either of those would improve Whitby's access to York and beyond.

 

[kylemore]

Well you could make that argument with lots of other rail reopenings. "Don't put the track back or the buses will go out of business." But this is the wrong forum for that surely.

There does seem to be an air of negativity about.

Anything is possible if there's a will to do it, I'm sure the 26 mile Welsh Highland Railway project was regarded as a luducrious dream.

As for the NYMR surely accomodating an hourly DMU in each direction is not beyond their ability? Remember there would be an Act of Parliament for the reopening and compliance with Acts of Parliament is not optional. Not only that but the aforesaid DMU would be packed in the summer months with people coming to spend money on the NYMR.

 

[Tomnick]

As above, the long single line sections mean that it wouldn't be possible to accommodate a further 1tph north of Levisham, without further capacity being provided (which has, I know, been seriously discussed elsewhere) by doubling or an additional crossing loop.

I agree mostly with E&W Lucas' (informed) views, but I'm not sure why doubling that long section would mean the loss of the heritage signalling. The GCR manage it just fine, and breaking the section with an IB in each direction still wouldn't really destroy the illusion - that concept has been around for a long time!

 

[kylemore]

Obviously if you rebuild the missing section but do nothing to the existing NYMR/NR sections of the through route then the idea is a non-starter.

One presupposes that having spent a large amount re-instating the missing track then a smaller amount will be spent to bring the existing bits up to scratch to operate through services.

 

[tbtc]

Arguably the highest profile candidate for re-opening is Skipton - Colne

That'd be a long way down a list of re-opening priorities in northern England (compared to Matlock - Buxton, Woodhead, Leamside etc)

Given the NYMR aren't likely to be supportive - after all they own Pickering to Grosmont and have done for circa 40 years, perhaps a better idea would be for the politicians to look at the Scarboro' to Whitby line or Battersby to Northallerton for reopening. Either of those would improve Whitby's access to York and beyond.

An interesting idea - I don't know the logistics of this, but this could potentially open up an east coast service from Hull to Middlesbrough (connecting the seaside towns in between) which would give rail quite a market against the single track roads along the coast.

 

[DarloRich]

North Yorkshire County Council have been backing various rail re-openings for many years, including York - Beverley, Skipton - Colne and Harrogate - Ripon, and while high on enthusiastic press releases, they are somewhat lacking on funding commitments.

Arguably the highest profile candidate for re-opening is Skipton - Colne, and despite enthusiastic support over 10-15 years from NYCC inter alia, not a great deal in the way of meaningful progress has been made.

While the relatively short missing link between Malton and Pickering would be a useful connection, I personally think that this is a non-starter. The cost would be extremely high and unlikely to meet any current cost to benefit calculation, especially given that there is a very low intermediate population between the towns.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This line will never be built