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Castlefield corridor potential solutions?

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furnessvale

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Buxton services leave alternately from platforms 3 and 11 at Piccadilly. Mayfield is the other side of the lines into platforms 13 and 14 and would lead to conflicts without the construction of some sort of flyover.
All trains turning back at Piccadilly and using the slow lines to/from Stockport are bound to conflict with something no matter which platforms they use.. The same argument applies to the Crewe/ Alderley Edge trains suggested earlier.
 
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Halifaxlad

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I doubt there was ever a feasible scheme to bring Mayfield back into use - what would even run into it - 2tph from Alderley Edge / Crewe? Anything else would conflict.

If you were going to bring it back into use, you might as well connect it up to the corridor at the West end and have it as platforms 13/14/15 & 16!
 

Mathew S

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If you were going to bring it back into use, you might as well connect it up to the corridor at the West end and have it as platforms 13/14/15 & 16!
I'm not even sure that would be doable without knocking down the McDonald Hotel.

The other thing to remember about the whole Mayfield thing - not that anythign railway related is going to happen to the site now anyway - is that Manchester doesn't really need more east-facing capacity right now; it's west-facing capacity that's the problem. Mayfield can't solve that, it's in the wrong place.
 

js1000

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I'm not even sure that would be doable without knocking down the McDonald Hotel.

The other thing to remember about the whole Mayfield thing - not that anythign railway related is going to happen to the site now anyway - is that Manchester doesn't really need more east-facing capacity right now; it's west-facing capacity that's the problem. Mayfield can't solve that, it's in the wrong place.
Mayfield is an irrelevance. Platforms 15/16 could act as terminating platforms if needs be (as is the case with the Holyhead service which reverse from platform 13) with the added benefit of having a 'through' route. The plan as I understand it is that the Oxford Road to Liverpool stopper would effectively terminate into the new platform 15 once the bay platform at OR is removed or potentially even continues onwards to Airport/Stockport etc beyond depending on available capacity. Network Rail were getting at this in their congestion report back in September as the current bay platform causes conflicts.
 

krus_aragon

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Network Rail were getting at this in their congestion report back in September as the current bay platform causes conflicts.

From what I remember of the congestion report, NR assumed the existence of a central turnback platform at Oxford Road in their assessments (as opposed to the current one off to the side that causes conflicting moves).
 
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Is the west-facing turn back at Victoria reinstatement of Red Bank? Here would look to be a truck-load of space available between there and the metro link depot.

If we are talking about running through trains, surely what then needs to be looked at are the congestion points this pushes further out? In this regard, Stalybridge seems optimum for services from the west if only by fortune that there is only 1 station (Ashton) between Manchester and the bays (x3) at Stalybridge.

I was interested to read on the GWR electrification thread that there looks to be a reinstatement of a 1935 layout which it has now been determined is required. Are we getting to the stage (NPR notwithstanding) where we need to look back at what infrastructure we used to have to support many more services, which in turn supported (Southport) faster journey times?
Manchester Arena to come down, reinstatement of previously closed lines? Someone else mentioned the reinstatement of the unused viaduct at Castlefield?

If we are talking about direct connections between Liverpool and Sheffield, reinstatement of Glazebrook viaduct to avoid Manchester and Stockport completely, but get stuck in congestion on the South TP route.
 

Mathew S

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Is the west-facing turn back at Victoria reinstatement of Red Bank? Here would look to be a truck-load of space available between there and the metro link depot.

If we are talking about running through trains, surely what then needs to be looked at are the congestion points this pushes further out? In this regard, Stalybridge seems optimum for services from the west if only by fortune that there is only 1 station (Ashton) between Manchester and the bays (x3) at Stalybridge.

I was interested to read on the GWR electrification thread that there looks to be a reinstatement of a 1935 layout which it has now been determined is required. Are we getting to the stage (NPR notwithstanding) where we need to look back at what infrastructure we used to have to support many more services, which in turn supported (Southport) faster journey times?
Manchester Arena to come down, reinstatement of previously closed lines? Someone else mentioned the reinstatement of the unused viaduct at Castlefield?

If we are talking about direct connections between Liverpool and Sheffield, reinstatement of Glazebrook viaduct to avoid Manchester and Stockport completely, but get stuck in congestion on the South TP route.
Aware as I am that this is about speculative ideas, you're surely not seriously suggesting knocking down Manchester Arena? You'd practically have riots in the city if you tried that after May 2017. Not to mention teerful parents of murdered youngsters crying on the evening news.

I'm all for exploring all the options, but that ain't one of them.
 

Killingworth

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The Manchester city central railways issue needs far deeper thinking than 15/16. I say deeper because we're scratching around on the surface where space is severely limited and always will be.

Rail in the future must make much greater use of all the ground below our feet, and quite deep too. We're still transfixed with tagging bits here and there onto Victorian surface infrastructure, and trying to revive more of the same that has long been out of use.

In principle construction of a brand new HS2 route is on the right lines, although the actual route with so much on the surface is another issue. I've previously suggested what might be called a Cross Pennine tube, 100% underground straight and level from Sheffield to Manchester, 32 miles, journey time of 20 minutes compared with today's best of 50 minutes and unlikely to be reduced below 45 minutes anytime soon. OK, file that with the Scotland-Northern Ireland Bridge. Far too far ahead of its time.

But we have Crossrail and Thameslink below London - with Crossrail 2 in the offing. In the 1970s the Mersey Railway was extended with a loop below Liverpool to link city centre stations. By the 1980s the old North Tyneside suburban loop became the Metro with a crossing of two lines at Monument below Newcastle city centre. Tunnels were built below sea level beneath the Mersey and Thames and linked high across the Tyne to run under Gateshead. I haven't forgotten Glasgow underground below the Clyde.

My other favourite example is Oslo where the second busiest station in the country, Nationaltheatret, is below ground. The rail line to the airport is underground below the city and also through a range of hills en route. The major road across Oslo is underground beneath the harbour and city centre.

It's time to build the Manchester ring with a major terminal for long distance routes below ground. By going below ground we can avoid flat crossovers with subterranean flyovers and unders. The canals and Irwell above shouldn't be an insurmountable issue, see above.

Where's our ambition? If long distance routes can come straight into the centre on dedicated fast track from, say, 5 miles out instead of getting snarled up with stopping services both would benefit. Some freed up surface mileage might be made available for light rail and cycle ways.

I leave it to Mancunians to start a new thread for this idea, suggesting where existing lines might start burrowing down towards the centre, where the circle below the city might go, and where a central interchange might be - or possibly with stops beneath both Piccadilly and Victoria.

If the average long distance service couldn't save at least 5 minutes on every journey it woudn't have been done right.

Yes, it would/will be expensive. But won't it be expensive to continue with the present pain with all the unpredictable delays we have now? It will certainly be expensive to update, replan and construct another patch on to the Victorian infrastructure with 15/16.

Think big. Get it done.
 
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Halifaxlad

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After comments about Mayfield, Victoria and previously comments regarding reusing Manchester Central, the only way really as said above is Underground! But what routes should it serve ?

Obviously it would need to connect with NPHR to Leeds, HS2 southwards but also preferably Liverpool and Sheffield preferably via a new route as suggested above. It would be a major undertaking if all these routes could be served by a mammoth underground station.
 
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If Trans Pennine electrification is completed, presumably if done properly, electric traction could tackle the climb out of Victoria? Thus removing the once per hour freight path through Piccadilly 13/14?
 

158756

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Isn't the path to Trafford Park which is not accessible from Vic?

Yes. The easiest solution to that probably is to move the container terminal somewhere else.

The freights apparently going a long way round to avoid Miles Platting are those from Liverpool/Knowsley to Drax and Teeside, which go via Denton. They wouldn't benefit from electrification at all even if they could run through Victoria because daytime freight has to go via the Calder Valley rather than Huddersfield, and even if the Calder Valley was electrified the lines to the terminals obviously aren't.
 

158756

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I bet Freightliner et al would love that, their response being "where are we going and who is paying?"

Even if Network Rail paid the full costs it'd surely be cheaper than the infrastructure works needed to release the same number of paths through Castlefield. If the infrastructure and freight operator were the same rather than our fragmented mess it'd be a no brainer.
 

The Planner

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Even if Network Rail paid the full costs it'd surely be cheaper than the infrastructure works needed to release the same number of paths through Castlefield. If the infrastructure and freight operator were the same rather than our fragmented mess it'd be a no brainer.
Not sure NR or BR could pay it, they are private sidings.
 

Greybeard33

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With this press release, TfN is evidently trying to pile pressure on the Government to fund the Piccadilly and Oxford Road platforms and the other proposed infrastructure works around Manchester:
Northern leaders call for urgent ‘Thameslink-level’ of commitment for top congestion hotspot

Friday 28th February 2020
As the Northern Rail franchise this weekend moves into new ownership, leaders from across the North of England have said it is now ‘more important than ever’ that a ‘Thameslink-level’ of commitment is made to progress vital work at one of the North’s top rail congestion hotspots.

From March 1st Northern rail will be run by a public holding company, Northern Trains Ltd, under the Operator of Last Resort. The franchise will be ‘re-baselined’ to address performance and reliability issues which have plagued passenger services for the last two years.

But, with Network Rail infrastructure projects such as the Castlefield corridor still to be delivered, and levelling-up an agreed national priority – the North’s leaders believe the new operator will struggle to deliver promised enhancements to services unless vital work to improve capacity on the corridor is given full priority.

Now they have spoken out together on the need for work on the corridor to be signed off as a matter of urgency because of the impact it is having on journeys across the North.
They say rail services across the North of England are being severely affected by decades of under-investment, while spending on London’s Thameslink, another cross-city corridor, shows railways can be made fit for purpose if the investment commitment is made.

The Castlefield corridor faces comparable issues to some of those once faced by the Thameslink corridor. It is one of only three officially designated ‘Congested Infrastructure’ rail hotspots – and the only one still waiting for vital major investment.
In statutory advice issued to Grant Shapps MP, Transport for the North has called on the Government to:
  • Approve a Transport Works Act Order (TWAO) to begin a major package of work without delay including:
    • Authorising the start of detailed design work
    • And instructing Network Rail to identify costs for improvement works at Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Oxford Road stations
  • Support and take forward a raft of other measures including:
    • Building new sidings for local trains at Manchester Victoria
    • Creating more platform capacity at Manchester Airport station
    • Developing track ‘fly-overs’ near the Ordsall Chord to enable trains to cross paths
It has also called for other urgent work, which could be delivered earlier, to take place now to help ease daily commuter misery for rail travellers across the region.
Last Autumn Transport for the North made a call to the Government asking for commitment to a dedicated Northern Budget. The three key asks for the dedicated spending fund were: £7 billion to fund a Northern Infrastructure Pipeline of road and rail projects that could begin in the next five years, £39 billion for the whole Northern Powerhouse Rail scheme, and £1 billion for Transport for the North for the next three years.
https://transportforthenorth.com/manchester-central-rail-congestion/
 

EastisECML

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In fact, maybe the break up of TPE is the natural extension of this.

Split Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Preston - Scotland off to the West Coast operator.

Run a high capacity Piccadilly (or Victoria) - Leeds shuttle

Split off York to Scarborough, York to Redcar to both only run north of York.

Pass the residual Leeds to Newcastle / Edinburgh service to Cross Country (or the East Coast operator) using platforms 7/14 at Leeds.

Hull services to Bradford Interchange.

South TransPennine from Piccadilly to Cleethorpes.

No TPE routes at the Airport.

I'm a bit late to the party here but this post stood out. Cutting up connections would be very unwelcome I suspect, but if we had a solid core route with high frequency services I think it would be manageable. Especially if the branches had better frequencies as well. Maybe something like:

A1. Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield 2 TPH
A2. Manchester Airport - Manchester - Sheffield 2 TPH

B1. Liverpool - Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds - York - Darlington - Newcastle - Edinburgh 2 TPH
B2. Manchester Airport - Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds - York - Darlington - Newcastle 2 TPH

C. Bradford - Leeds - Hull 2 TPH

D1. York - Scarborough 2 TPH
D2. York - Middlesbrough 2 TPH
 
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GingerSte

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Yes. The easiest solution to that probably is to move the container terminal somewhere else.

The freights apparently going a long way round to avoid Miles Platting are those from Liverpool/Knowsley to Drax and Teeside, which go via Denton. They wouldn't benefit from electrification at all even if they could run through Victoria because daytime freight has to go via the Calder Valley rather than Huddersfield, and even if the Calder Valley was electrified the lines to the terminals obviously aren't.

I bet Freightliner et al would love that, their response being "where are we going and who is paying?"

Surely there must be precedents for both NR and BR paying for the relocation of private property to facilitate improvements to rail operations?

Based on their proximity to Manchester, and Salford Quay in particular, I imagine this would be a good redevelopment site.

I can imagine a lot of demand, which would provide some of the money to persuade Freightliner to find another site. If I were Freightliner this, plus the savings that NR could make from that hourly path (which they would obviously pass on to me!), might be enough to incentivise me to look for a more accessible yard in a cheaper location.
 

Dr Hoo

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Can you flesh out what ‘savings’ NR might realise from an hourly freight path (presuming that the actual freight transferred to an alternative site reached by an alternative route in the same general area)?
 

GingerSte

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Can you flesh out what ‘savings’ NR might realise from an hourly freight path (presuming that the actual freight transferred to an alternative site reached by an alternative route in the same general area)?

Not really. Just going on the post quoted below, and it being cheaper than the infrastructure works needed to release the same number of paths.

Even if Network Rail paid the full costs it'd surely be cheaper than the infrastructure works needed to release the same number of paths through Castlefield. If the infrastructure and freight operator were the same rather than our fragmented mess it'd be a no brainer.
 

Dr Hoo

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Thanks for the response. I am unclear how freeing up one (freight) path per hour would ‘solve’ the Castlefield performance and capacity problems and avoid the need for further investment in the area.
 

Greybeard33

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Based on their proximity to Manchester, and Salford Quay in particular, I imagine this would be a good redevelopment site.

I can imagine a lot of demand, which would provide some of the money to persuade Freightliner to find another site. If I were Freightliner this, plus the savings that NR could make from that hourly path (which they would obviously pass on to me!), might be enough to incentivise me to look for a more accessible yard in a cheaper location.
There are two separate, and competing, rail freight terminals in Trafford Park. Freightliner owns one and DB Cargo the other (the Euroterminal). The latter is also used by GBRf. Both terminals can only be accessed via the Castlefield corridor and the three FOCs have to share the hourly paths. Clearly removal of the freight path would mitigate congestion in the corridor somewhat, but I doubt that it would be enough to solve the problem, if the passenger services all remained unchanged.

Neither you nor @158756 have offered any evidence that the cost of constructing replacement container terminals elsewhere would be less than that of infrastructure works to increase the corridor capacity, even allowing for the funds realised from redevelopment of the existing terminal sites. The Network Rail Castlefield Corridor Congested Infrastructure report did not even see fit to mention this idea, amongst its long list of possible infrastructure interventions.
 

markymark2000

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Thanks for the response. I am unclear how freeing up one (freight) path per hour would ‘solve’ the Castlefield performance and capacity problems and avoid the need for further investment in the area.
It wouldn't avoid the need for further investment but the length of the freight train and the lower speed of it (it needs all greens or it could really mess up the corridor as stopping and starting freight isn't as quick as a MU) mean that it probably takes up 2 trains paths per hour (if we wanted to really clog up the corridor). Removing the freight would right now only give more leeway for trains to not be so caught up along the corridor and should give a slightly better flow.
 

GingerSte

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Neither you nor @158756 have offered any evidence that the cost of constructing replacement container terminals elsewhere would be less than that of infrastructure works to increase the corridor capacity, even allowing for the funds realised from redevelopment of the existing terminal sites. The Network Rail Castlefield Corridor Congested Infrastructure report did not even see fit to mention this idea, amongst its long list of possible infrastructure interventions.

I wasn't aware that I needed to. I merely voiced an opinion based on somebody else's post. I'll ensure that my posts include fully costed analyses in future.
 

Halifaxlad

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I was thinking the other day, could terminating more services at Rochdale be a short term fix ?

Obviously Rochdale would need more platforms/sidings but it is currently half the size of what it used to be.

Also it would need wiring but since they're are no-tunnels I can't imagine it would be hard to string up some more wires. Could even electrify Newton Heath at the same time.

I would imagine that this would be a lot easier, cheaper and quicker to do whilst the grand plan for Manchester is finally worked out.
 

VT 390

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I was thinking the other day, could terminating more services at Rochdale be a short term fix ?

Obviously Rochdale would need more platforms/sidings but it is currently half the size of what it used to be.

Also it would need wiring but since they're are no-tunnels I can't imagine it would be hard to string up some more wires. Could even electrify Newton Heath at the same time.

I would imagine that this would be a lot easier, cheaper and quicker to do whilst the grand plan for Manchester is finally worked out.
By the time you added additional turn back facilities and electrified the route would it really be a short term solution?
 

Senex

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Should we really be thinking of short-term solutions for Rochdale in any case? If the TransPennine Upgrade ever really gets going, then for a number of years the Calder Valley line is going to see much heavier use by freight and passenger traffic that will not be calling at Rochdale. Firstly, would it make sense to clutter the Manchester to Rochdale section with more local traffic, just to keep it out of the way at Victoria, when the track-capacity is likely to be needed for long-distance services? And second, wouldn't the most important thing be to restore the old up island so that the down and up main lines could have the "straight" and unchecked alignment through the station rather than having to waste time and energy braking to and accelerating from the 40 down limit?
 
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