Class 175 original proposals

[rf_ioliver]

On the description page for the new TS2015 South Wales MainLine release [1] there is reference to the original proposals for the class 175:

"The original specification for the Class 175 included a 125 mph variant and even a one or ‘Bubble’ car model much like the Class 121. These were never produced, leaving only the 100 mph capable 2 and 3 car examples which are seen today."

Now I remember from back in '98/'99 about the 125mph variant which never got produced, but the single car variant - nothing is mentioned on Wikipedia [2] (yes, I know, Wikipedia, YMMV) and I certainly can't recall any mention of this variant.

So is this mention of a single car 175 a mistake or was it really a possibility?

If it was a possibility, then where would it have run and would a 100mph (or even 125mph) single car DMU been even a realistic prospect? I could imagine 2,3 or more of these coupling/uncoupling to provide multiple small routes a potential mainline service, but even that stretches credibility somewhat...

t.

Ian

See:

[1] http://train-simulator.com/the-welsh-coradia-south-wales-coastal-is-available-now/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_175

 

[pemma]

As far as I'm aware Alstom offered First 2 products - 175s for North West routes and another 125mph product for open access services to London Euston and North Wales-Birmingham. The 175s got ordered for use by FNW, the other product never went ahead as it was but FGW took on 180s which were believed to be longer versions of what FNW would have got but they certainly weren't planning single carriage services between Holyhead and Birmingham or between Blackpool/Rochdale and London!

 

[Polarbear]

I don't recall any mention of a single car variant of the 175 family being on the cards at the time? From memory, I think the original idea was to have a mix of what are now 175's and a 3 car, 125 mph capable version to work services between the North West & London.

All the units were originally to be based in the North of England.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 125mph version of the 175 to all intents and purposes IS what became the 180. I don't doubt that if Alsthom had been asked to produce a single-car version of the 175 they'd have done so, just as Adtranz (later Bombardier) would have with the Turbostar platform.

 

[pemma]

I don't recall any mention of a single car variant of the 175 family being on the cards at the time? From memory, I think the original idea was to have a mix of what are now 175's and a 3 car, 125 mph capable version to work services between the North West & London.

Could it be they were actually ordered as 3 car and so a separate order for centre cars to create 5 car sets which is where the 1 car 125mph trains come in?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There were never going to be 1-car 125mph trains. The single coaches were 100mph units.

 

[RobShipway]

I will stand corrected, but I believe if my memory is correct that the class 180's where actually originally ordered by First North Western, before finding out that they could not run London Euston and North Wales-Birmingham services so where moved down to be used by First Great Western(GWR).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I will stand corrected, but I believe if my memory is correct that the class 180's where actually originally ordered by First North Western, before finding out that they could not run London Euston and North Wales-Birmingham services so where moved down to be used by First Great Western(GWR).

Not quite.
NWT certainly planned an Alstom order but it was First who signed it off (NWT's bank balance couldn't afford their fantasies).
First then reconfigured the 175/180 mix to suit their wider plans.
FNW were very lucky to get any new trains at all.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not quite.
NWT certainly planned an Alstom order but it was First who signed it off (NWT's bank balance couldn't afford their fantasies).
First then reconfigured the 175/180 mix to suit their wider plans.
FNW were very lucky to get any new trains at all.

NWT/FNW were obligated to procure new stock to replace the slam-door stock (101s, 305s and 309s), that things panned out the way they did was down to creative accounting by Great Western Holdings which was the shell company owned by First Group to run FNW and FGW. Of course the 175s had a rather troublesome introduction which meant the 101s hung on for longer than planned. If the 175/180s hadn't been ordered though, something would have had to have been ordered sooner or later. It probably would've been more Turbostars though.

 

[pemma]

NWT certainly planned an Alstom order but it was First who signed it off (NWT's bank balance couldn't afford their fantasies).

Great Western Holdings Limited had 3 subsidiaries - First Great Western Link Limited, Great Western Trains Company Limited and North Western Trains Company Limited. None of the subsidiaries could have afforded a fleet of new trains. From looking at the archived company documents for NWT online it seems a loan of £40m appeared in NWT's bank account ahead around the time the new trains arrived.

FNW were very lucky to get any new trains at all.

Not as lucky as Wales & Borders were to get allocated all the relatively new 175s, that was as surprising as Pacers going to SWT would be!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course the 175s had a rather troublesome introduction which meant the 101s hung on for longer than planned. If the 175/180s hadn't been ordered though, something would have had to have been ordered sooner or later. It probably would've been more Turbostars though.

If National Express had been awarded the North West franchise I think it's very likely Chester would now have a Turbostar depot. First did seem to have a reputation of doing something a big different, if we ignore the First orders how many non-Bombardier diesel trains have been ordered since privitisation?

The downside to doing something different is you're the first to experience the problems whether it's reliability issues (175s and 180s) or fuel economy issues (185s.)

 

[Mikey C]

Is there a reason why the 175 have end doors whereas the Turbostars have 1/2 2/3 doors?

Was it a franchise necessity, or what Alstom chose to offer?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Once the 175s were at Chester it was inevitable they would pass to ATW.
Maybe my memory is addled but wasn't GWH largely a BR management buyout?
I think FirstGroup only took over after about 2 years when NWT was effectively broke.

 

[43096]

Great Western Holdings Limited had 3 subsidiaries - First Great Western Link Limited, Great Western Trains Company Limited and North Western Trains Company Limited. None of the subsidiaries could have afforded a fleet of new trains. From looking at the archived company documents for NWT online it seems a loan of £40m appeared in NWT's bank account ahead around the time the new trains arrived.

Great Western Link was never a Great Western Holdings franchise. It was originally let as the Thames Trains franchise (to Go Ahead, I think...) and became FGWL when First won the franchise, which was long after First had bought GWH.

GWH couldn't afford to pay the cash cost of the new fleets, which is what the leasing companies are there for! Angel bought the 175 and 180 fleets.

As for the fleets, there was talk originally of NWT ordering 22 single car DMUs. The original NWT order was:
11 x 2-car 100mph (175/0)
7 x 3-car 100mph (175/1)
9 x 3-car 125mph (180?)

At about the same time as NWT decided against the 125mph option, GWT wanted 8 x 5-car 125mph units. You can argue about how the orders changed, but the net effect was NWT got an extra 9 3-car 100mph units and GWT got its 180s. GWT subsequently ordered another 6 180s, giving a total fleet of 140 cars (70 x 175 and 70 x 180). By the time the orders were delivered, GWH was wholly owned by FirstGroup, of course.

 

[BestWestern]

Is there a reason why the 175 have end doors whereas the Turbostars have 1/2 2/3 doors?

Was it a franchise necessity, or what Alstom chose to offer?

I would think simply because the end door format was considered appropriate for regional stock, as per Class 156/158 (and indeed Class 444 on SWT). Doors at 1/3 and 2/3 was always considered a suburban layout, until people started running Turbostars about on long distance routes.

 

[pemma]

Great Western Link was never a Great Western Holdings franchise.

Like I said First Great Western Link Limited is a registered company which belongs to Great Western Holdings Limited. If you don't believe me: https://companycheck.co.uk/company/04804687/FIRST-GREAT-WESTERN-LINK-LIMITED/group-structure

At about the same time as NWT decided against the 125mph option,

Virgin got increased competition protection which ended the NWT open access services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Once the 175s were at Chester it was inevitable they would pass to ATW.

Really? I think it's far less logical to use Chester based units on Holyhead-Cardiff than it is to use them on services like Liverpool-Manchester Airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there a reason why the 175 have end doors whereas the Turbostars have 1/2 2/3 doors?

Was it a franchise necessity, or what Alstom chose to offer?

First got to choose the door layout for Regional Railway North West services, with 170s a compromise was reached with different operators wanting them for different types of services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Once the 175s were at Chester it was inevitable they would pass to ATW.
Maybe my memory is addled but wasn't GWH largely a BR management buyout?
I think FirstGroup only took over after about 2 years when NWT was effectively broke.

Well if you make pre-tax profits of £12.5m but pay out dividends of £13.5m then you make a loss but that's down to mis-management: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/...mgmsH3y+lHgZp5Cqeo1UzDwAncspsj7ZkQYkgk+q3uAU=

First Group took 100% ownership of Great Western Holdings Limited but the registered company names remained the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? I think it's far less logical to use Chester based units on Holyhead-Cardiff than it is to use them on services like Liverpool-Manchester Airport.

Eh? How can it make more sense to use units living at Chester on a service not passing through nor based at Chester than one that does both of those things?

 

[pemma]

Eh? How can it make more sense to use units living at Chester on a service not passing through nor based at Chester than one that does both of those things?

So in your opinion would Lancaster be an ideal depot location for TPE's Manchester Airport to Scotland services but Sandbach be a bad location even though the latter could mean a lot less ECS mileage? Surely the cost of training crews on a different route is a lot less than hundreds of miles of ECS every day?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So in your opinion would Lancaster be an ideal depot location for TPE's Manchester Airport to Scotland services but Sandbach be a bad location even though the latter could mean a lot less ECS mileage? Surely the cost of training crews on a different route is a lot less than hundreds of miles of ECS every day?

There is little case for short workings on Manchester Airport to Scotland (other than perhaps back to Picc or at a push Preston), whereas there are plenty of short workings (starting at Chester) for the Welsh services. Therefore they are not comparable.

 

[sprinterguy]

So in your opinion would Lancaster be an ideal depot location for TPE's Manchester Airport to Scotland services but Sandbach be a bad location even though the latter could mean a lot less ECS mileage? Surely the cost of training crews on a different route is a lot less than hundreds of miles of ECS every day?

Is there that much ECS running? I thought that, in general, 175 diagrams were rotated so that, at worst, units end up back at Chester every few days for maintenance with outstabling at the ends of the route as required. There's no issue with Cardiff Canton undertaking servicing on 175 units, they don't all need to get "back to base" every night and having a major depot located mid-route for Holyhead - Cardiff and Manchester - Llandudno/Holyhead services, and only a short distance away for units used on Manchester - Cardiff trains, seems logical to me.

 

[pemma]

Is there that much ECS running? I thought that, in general, 175 diagrams were rotated so that, at worst, units end up back at Chester every few days for maintenance with outstabling at the ends of the route as required.

There's a couple of daily Chester-Llandudno Junction ECS movements (44 miles each), a movement between Manchester and Crewe via Stoke, another between Manchester and Crewe via Winsford, a few movements between Crewe and Chester and there's an overnight service from Chester to Manchester Airport via Northwich which used to be an ECS but they've decided to run in service now.

It's worth noting Northern do quite a few ECS movements to/from Chester and one of them relates to a Lime Street diagram as part of running the Helsby-Ellesmere Port service so having Northern using 175s at Chester wouldn't have necessarily meant more ECS.

 

[Mikey C]

I would think simply because the end door format was considered appropriate for regional stock, as per Class 156/158 (and indeed Class 444 on SWT). Doors at 1/3 and 2/3 was always considered a suburban layout, until people started running Turbostars about on long distance routes.

Midland Mainline for example ordered Turbostars which seemed wrong for the MML and only lasted a few years before being replaced by the Meridians.

 

[pemma]

Midland Mainline for example ordered Turbostars which seemed wrong for the MML and only lasted a few years before being replaced by the Meridians.

They were apparently sold in to National Express as having better acceleration and requiring shorter dwell times than HSTs meaning the lack of a 125mph top speed shouldn't have been an issue. However, after using them for a bit NX decided they weren't the right train for MML and decided to get proper Intercity trains and moved the 170s to Central to replace some Sprinters. However, I wonder if the cheaper operating costs of 170s vs HSTs came in to play.

 

[Polarbear]

On the subject of the original proposals for First North West & the Coradia order, I will have a dig through my back catalog of "Modern Railways" & see what I can drum up.

 

[dubscottie]

I have the article from Railway Magazine (Oct 1997) here.

The 70 car order was as follows,

9 x 3 car streamlined 125 mph units

7 x 3 car plain front 100 mph units

11 x 2 car plain front 100 mph units

The 125 mph units were for NW- London Trains that were using class 322 at the time.

The article has artist impressions and can scan and post it up if the mods don't mind (and I won't get in trouble for copyright)

 

[pemma]

The 125 mph units were for NW- London Trains that were using class 322 at the time.

And 158s. 3 x 322s were used on Manchester Airport-Euston via Trent Valley, 158s were used on Blackpool/Rochdale to Euston.

 

[MCR247]

They were apparently sold in to National Express as having better acceleration and requiring shorter dwell times than HSTs meaning the lack of a 125mph top speed shouldn't have been an issue. However, after using them for a bit NX decided they weren't the right train for MML and decided to get proper Intercity trains and moved the 170s to Central to replace some Sprinters. However, I wonder if the cheaper operating costs of 170s vs HSTs came in to play.

There was also definitely growth in passenger numbers on the MML 'slow' trains which is one of the reasons the 222s were ordered

 

[Polarbear]

I have the article from Railway Magazine (Oct 1997) here.

The 70 car order was as follows,

9 x 3 car streamlined 125 mph units

7 x 3 car plain front 100 mph units

11 x 2 car plain front 100 mph units

The 125 mph units were for NW- London Trains that were using class 322 at the time.

The article has artist impressions and can scan and post it up if the mods don't mind (and I won't get in trouble for copyright)

Cheers! Saves me digging it out later.

 

[dubscottie]

Here is the article from "Railway Magazine" October 1997.

The fronts of the what was to become the 175, look better in this than they turned out.

Mods - Remove this if it breaches copyright.

Whilst digging for this one, I came across an article about the plans of Regional Railways Northeast, should a MBO be successful and the Trans-Pennine route was wired.

One of the plans was for single car EMU's!!!!

 

[tomuk]

View attachment 26325
The fronts of the what was to become the 175, look better in this than they turned out.

Reminiscent of the Class 60 and 92.

 

[Spartacus]

What because the 180 certainly didn't change much, I'm glad they dropped the Class 60-like light cluster for the 175 though!

My abiding memory of the original 175 plans resulted in some VERY lively class 101 running on Chester services trying to keep to 100mph timings!