Class 175 original proposals

[craigybagel]

There's a couple of daily Chester-Llandudno Junction ECS movements (44 miles each), a movement between Manchester and Crewe via Stoke, another between Manchester and Crewe via Winsford, a few movements between Crewe and Chester and there's an overnight service from Chester to Manchester Airport via Northwich which used to be an ECS but they've decided to run in service now.

Not quite.

I'm not 100% on the coast but I believe of the two morning Chester-junction ECS moves, one is 2 x 15x (normally a 150 for Blaenau and a 158 for the coast), the other is 2 x 175.

There is one Chester-Crewe ECS 175 movement. This involves 2 x 175 which split at Crewe. One unit forms the 0449 to Milford Haven, the other runs ECS to Manchester, via Stoke or Warrington or Styal depending on which day of the week it is.

 

[northwichcat]

My abiding memory of the original 175 plans resulted in some VERY lively class 101 running on Chester services trying to keep to 100mph timings!

FNW had to replace the slam-door stock. The 101s stayed in service longer than intended due to teething problems with the 175s. However, I think the usual backup plan was to put 101s on Marple runs and put the 142/150 which should have worked the Marple service on the service which should have got the 175. I recall someone saying once a Merseytravel 142 filled in for a 175 on a Manchester-Holyhead-Manchester working.

 

[Spartacus]

I know there was at least one 2+1 101 allocated to Crewe - Chesters for a while. once man-handled an old signalbox sign onto one after a Crewe open day, which was a swine to get in and out!

 

[craigybagel]

I know there was at least one 2+1 101 allocated to Crewe - Chesters for a while. once man-handled an old signalbox sign onto one after a Crewe open day, which was a swine to get in and out!

Wish they were still there, it might make the shuttles slightly less tedious than they are now

 

[Philip]

There's a driving car of a 175 currently parked up in Chester sidings, which one does it belong to?

 

[PHILIPE]

There's a driving car of a 175 currently parked up in Chester sidings, which one does it belong to?

175003. Other car damaged with tree bashing in storms.

 

[tom1649]

FNW had to replace the slam-door stock. The 101s stayed in service longer than intended due to teething problems with the 175s. However, I think the usual backup plan was to put 101s on Marple runs and put the 142/150 which should have worked the Marple service on the service which should have got the 175. I recall someone saying once a Merseytravel 142 filled in for a 175 on a Manchester-Holyhead-Manchester working.

I think the Marples were booked for 101s, even towards the end. Sometimes you got a 101 on a Sheffield diagram which should have been a 142/150 though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think the Marples were booked for 101s, even towards the end. Sometimes you got a 101 on a Sheffield diagram which should have been a 142/150 though.

101s were kept on summer Sheffield runs almost to the end due to higher capacity, particularly the last remaining 3-car unit, the green one nicknamed Daisy.

 

[tom1649]

Daisy (101 685) was only 2 cars by 2000 sadly but she did run along the Hope Valley regularly after being shortened.

 

[route:oxford]

I think the Marples were booked for 101s, even towards the end. Sometimes you got a 101 on a Sheffield diagram which should have been a 142/150 though.

How did they cope with the transpennine gradients?

I recall they used to struggle with the departure from BofA and it felt like walking pace until they reached they crossed the Allan Water. On the other hand, I'm sure they could do better than the official maximum 70mph speed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Daisy (101 685) was only 2 cars by 2000 sadly but she did run along the Hope Valley regularly after being shortened.

Quite right

Nevertheless, a 40m 101 was far better for the summer rambler traffic than a 30m Leyland National!

 

[Philip]

175003. Other car damaged with tree bashing in storms.

I was on 175003 yesterday afternoon on the 15:30 Manchester to Crewe?

 

[craigybagel]

I was on 175003 yesterday afternoon on the 15:30 Manchester to Crewe?

Indeed, 003 was out and about yesterday and again today. IIRC it's 004 that's out of use, and I've just checked and it's not working today. That said, there's been a second 175 laid up in Chester for the last while, minus an engine. Also, 3 car 110 has been running around as a 2 car for the last few weeks.

 

[PHILIPE]

Indeed, 003 was out and about yesterday and again today. IIRC it's 004 that's out of use, and I've just checked and it's not working today. That said, there's been a second 175 laid up in Chester for the last while, minus an engine. Also, 3 car 110 has been running around as a 2 car for the last few weeks.

I thought it was something other than 175003 when I saw the report on a Yahoo Group. May be wrong again, but I think 175008 is the other one.

 

[craigybagel]

008 is out and about today, but it may be one of the ones that were at Chester - I've not been there for a few days to check.

 

[tom1649]

How did they cope with the transpennine gradients?

I recall they used to struggle with the departure from BofA and it felt like walking pace until they reached they crossed the Allan Water. On the other hand, I'm sure they could do better than the official maximum 70mph speed.

The power-twin units were surprisingly quick off the mark and coped very well. If you had a power-trailer set on the Hope Valley they were a bit sluggish and struggled to keep to the timetable. Usually the power-trailer sets were restricted to Marple/Rose Hill services but occasionally one 'escaped' onto a longer route.

 

[43096]

175003. Other car damaged with tree bashing in storms.

There is actually a hybrid set running, which I think is numbered as 003. One car each of 003 and 005, both cars of 004 and the centre car of 110 are all currently stopped.

The current Modern Railways gives the real reason for this: serious corrosion. No doubt a debate is going on between ATW, Angel and Alstom over who pays.

 

[Philip]

This has got me thinking. Would it be possible and worth taking three centre cars out of the 175/1s and putting them into existing 3-car units to make three 4-car units? Obviously this would then also mean more 2-car units. Would it be better having 4-car units for the busiest diagrams? There are at least a couple of Holyhead-Cardiff diagrams now booked as 3-car 175s which a few years ago were 2-car.

 

[route:oxford]

There is actually a hybrid set running, which I think is numbered as 003. One car each of 003 and 005, both cars of 004 and the centre car of 110 are all currently stopped.

The current Modern Railways gives the real reason for this: serious corrosion. No doubt a debate is going on between ATW, Angel and Alstom over who pays.

That doesn't sound good at all.

Bad enough to require a replacement build? Although the design is 20 years old, so is hardly likely to be practical....

 

[Philip Phlopp]

That doesn't sound good at all.

Bad enough to require a replacement build? Although the design is 20 years old, so is hardly likely to be practical....

No. The same problem the Class 458 fleet suffered and which held up their rebuild, it's easily fixable but it's time consuming and thus costly to deal with.

 

[PHILIPE]

This has got me thinking. Would it be possible and worth taking three centre cars out of the 175/1s and putting them into existing 3-car units to make three 4-car units? Obviously this would then also mean more 2-car units. Would it be better having 4-car units for the busiest diagrams? There are at least a couple of Holyhead-Cardiff diagrams now booked as 3-car 175s which a few years ago were 2-car.

They are ALL busy. More 2 Car units would only make overcrowding worse.

 

[craigybagel]

This has got me thinking. Would it be possible and worth taking three centre cars out of the 175/1s and putting them into existing 3-car units to make three 4-car units? Obviously this would then also mean more 2-car units. Would it be better having 4-car units for the busiest diagrams? There are at least a couple of Holyhead-Cardiff diagrams now booked as 3-car 175s which a few years ago were 2-car.

Possibly, but the problem is with units running such long distances it's hard to isolate any particular diagram as being busy all day. Take for example, one particular 3 car diagram.

~0350 Chester-Crewe ECS
0449 Crewe-Milford Haven
1108 Milford Haven-Manchester Piccadilly
1730 Manchester Piccadilly-Cardiff Central
2117 Cardiff Central-Chester (via Crewe)

The first passenger service is virtually empty from Crewe to Abergavenny, starts picking up commuters there and is usually standing room only on arrival at Cardiff. From there to Milford, and on it's return trip I believe it's rarely busy - certainly East of Cardiff it's rare to see a load that woudlnt fit on a 2 car and I suspect it's even quieter in the West. However, at Manchester it forms the 1730 departure, the busiest of the day, with people usually standing at least to Wilmslow and sometimes as far as Crewe. South of Shrewsbury though you're back into low figures again. The final trip north is again quiet - at its busiest point (Newport to Cwmbran) the loads would fit in a 153, and it's normally single figures north of Hereford.

This diagram requires a 3 car for parts of the day, and even then normally has standees,but it also runs around mostly empty for a large part. And you'll find the same problem with most of the diagrams. The current diagrams actually do a very good of keeping 3 cars where they're needed and keeping 2 cars on the quiet runs.

 

[edwin_m]

No. The same problem the Class 458 fleet suffered and which held up their rebuild, it's easily fixable but it's time consuming and thus costly to deal with.

With new DMUs now available from CAF, and other suppliers probably also able to offer them too, I wonder if they would be better scrapping the non-standard and not particularly reliable 175 fleet.

Alternatively could they grab some centre cars from the 180 fleet, some of which will fall out of use within a few years? Or perhaps they have the same corrosion problem?

 

[TH172341]

It would be very unlikely that they would fit 180 carriages in - aside the technicalities of such a task, the Hull Train units are scheduled to transfer to Grand Central once the IEPs arrive. That will allow Grand Central to withdraw the HST sets.

 

[Kite159]

With new DMUs now available from CAF, and other suppliers probably also able to offer them too, I wonder if they would be better scrapping the non-standard and not particularly reliable 175 fleet.

Alternatively could they grab some centre cars from the 180 fleet, some of which will fall out of use within a few years? Or perhaps they have the same corrosion problem?

Or ATW to grab some of the Scotrail 170s when released, to boost their fleet numbers so that the 2-car 175s can run together to form 4-car units, maybe splitting at Cardiff/Swansea so only a 2-car unit carries on to the far west, with the other unit attaching to a service from the far west towards Manchester (if that makes sense)

 

[PHILIPE]

Or ATW to grab some of the Scotrail 170s when released, to boost their fleet numbers so that the 2-car 175s can run together to form 4-car units, maybe splitting at Cardiff/Swansea so only a 2-car unit carries on to the far west, with the other unit attaching to a service from the far west towards Manchester (if that makes sense)

Aren't the Scotrail 170s earmarked for Northern possibly on the Harrogate line ? Nobody is interested in giving ATW any more units not that there are any available. ATW won't attempt anything, just saying DFT allocate units and that there should be more units available on Electrification but that's a long way away yet. Their franchise expires in 2018 but actually require additional units several years ago, The Marches and North Wales routes are particularly vulnerable for gross overcrowding day in and day out. In fact, the problem is widespread.

 

[headshot119]

With new DMUs now available from CAF, and other suppliers probably also able to offer them too, I wonder if they would be better scrapping the non-standard and not particularly reliable 175 fleet.

Alternatively could they grab some centre cars from the 180 fleet, some of which will fall out of use within a few years? Or perhaps they have the same corrosion problem?

You want to scrap 27 perfectly serviceable DMUs

The 175s had a rough introduction, but I wouldn't say they are unreliable. Perhaps in years gone by.

 

[Philip]

Or ATW to grab some of the Scotrail 170s when released, to boost their fleet numbers so that the 2-car 175s can run together to form 4-car units, maybe splitting at Cardiff/Swansea so only a 2-car unit carries on to the far west, with the other unit attaching to a service from the far west towards Manchester (if that makes sense)

Or the 20-odd 185s being released from TPE...

I think 175003 has had a hybrid use in the past too. Pretty sure this was the unit that was made into a 3-car version for a few months by putting the centre car of 175109 inbetween, because of a fire in one of the driving cabs of '109. There was also a fire in 175008 in the early days, but a much more recent fire in 175110. Been rather too many fires in this fleet really.

 

[43096]

No. The same problem the Class 458 fleet suffered and which held up their rebuild, it's easily fixable but it's time consuming and thus costly to deal with.

Which suggests either a design flaw or poor quality manufacturing. Were there any issues with corrosion found when the Class 334s had their C6 overhauls?

 

[WillPS]

It's probably more than bit premature to consider 175 withdrawal, but then I'd bet they'll be withdrawn ahead of mass 170 withdrawals; perhaps even ahead of the 158s. But yeah, God knows when that might be.