Class 175 original proposals

[craigybagel]

You want to scrap 27 perfectly serviceable DMUs

The 175s had a rough introduction, but I wouldn't say they are unreliable. Perhaps in years gone by.

Exactly. From my own experience working on them they're actually the most reliable Trains we have!

Which suggests either a design flaw or poor quality manufacturing.

Alsthom in the late 90s/early 00s weren't exactly known for their high quality produce.

Aren't the Scotrail 170s earmarked for Northern possibly on the Harrogate line ? Nobody is interested in giving ATW any more units not that there are any available. ATW won't attempt anything, just saying DFT allocate units and that there should be more units available on Electrification but that's a long way away yet. Their franchise expires in 2018 but actually require additional units several years ago, The Marches and North Wales routes are particularly vulnerable for gross overcrowding day in and day out. In fact, the problem is widespread.

What particular services on the Marches do you have in mind as suffering from gross overcrowding? I spend most of my working life on that route and contrary to popular belief,even the 2 car services are rarely grossly overcrowded. 90% full maybe, and not ideal especially on match days, but it's not like people are being left behind, or even forced to stand for more than 20 minutes in the rush hour.

That said, my personal belief (not based on insider knowledge I hasten to add) is that any short term fleet expansion may come in the form of loco and stock. There is another guards depot currently being trained up on them, which once complete would theoretically permit Manchester-Cardiff services to use them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have DB/Chiltern got a couple more sets of Mk3s in their back pocket, then? Or is the Gerald going in favour of a different service?

 

[PHILIPE]

Exactly. From my own experience working on them they're actually the most reliable Trains we have!



Alsthom in the late 90s/early 00s weren't exactly known for their high quality produce.



What particular services on the Marches do you have in mind as suffering from gross overcrowding? I spend most of my working life on that route and contrary to popular belief,even the 2 car services are rarely grossly overcrowded. 90% full maybe, and not ideal especially on match days, but it's not like people are being left behind, or even forced to stand for more than 20 minutes in the rush hour.

That said, my personal belief (not based on insider knowledge I hasten to add) is that any short term fleet expansion may come in the form of loco and stock. There is another guards depot currently being trained up on them, which once complete would theoretically permit Manchester-Cardiff services to use them.

Info from reading posts on ATW Twitter Feed.

 

[craigybagel]

Have DB/Chiltern got a couple more sets of Mk3s in their back pocket, then? Or is the Gerald going in favour of a different service?

No idea. Just a theory, a hunch.

Info from reading posts on ATW Twitter Feed.

You should know better than to listen to people on Twitter besides, most of the time if they actually walked down the train instead of standing in the vestibules they'd find plenty of room. Most of the time there is overcrowding its either due to an event or short formation.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Overcrowding is coming, which is why there are plans to deal with it during CP6/CP7 with the fabled 2 or 5 extra carriages plan in the latest Draft RUS.

 

[edwin_m]

Or the 20-odd 185s being released from TPE...

Now there's a thought. Or does the Marches line have lots of Sprinter differential speeds (that 185s can't use) like some of the other routes upgraded for "Regional Express"?

 

[craigybagel]

Now there's a thought. Or does the Marches line have lots of Sprinter differential speeds (that 185s can't use) like some of the other routes upgraded for "Regional Express"?

It does have MU differentials in parts. A few examples are Harlescott - Nantwich 90 over 70, Wrexham - Shrewsbury 70 over 60. There's also the (very short) length of a bridge just outside Craven Arms which is a rather dramatic 90 over 40.

That said, given that for at least some of these Gerald has dispensation to run at the higher speeds, it may be possible to do the same for 185s. 185s would also beat 175s on some of the gradients on the line as well one would assume.

 

[jopsuk]

how different in weight are the carriages of a 175 and a 180? If they're more or less the same I'm somewhat surprised they can use SP differentials as as far as I know 180s can't (they can use HST)

 

[craigybagel]

The limits on the Marches aren't SP (which 175s don't qualify for) but MU (which they do, but 185s don't).

 

[Philip]

If 185s can be upgraded for MU speeds and the loco and stock plans come to fruition, then you could release all 27 175s and perhaps send them to the South West, or to East Midlands/East Anglia. The 185s and LHCS could then cover all the 175 duties (assuming 5 or 6 rakes of LHCS). 3 car 185s would be a capacity boost over 2-car 175s and the LHCS could cover the busiest Marches diagrams and perhaps another Manchester-Llandudno diagram in addition to the existing one.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If 185s can be upgraded for MU speeds and the loco and stock plans come to fruition, then you could release all 27 175s and perhaps send them to the South West, or to East Midlands/East Anglia. The 185s and LHCS could then cover all the 175 duties (assuming 5 or 6 rakes of LHCS). 3 car 185s would be a capacity boost over 2-car 175s and the LHCS could cover the busiest Marches diagrams and perhaps another Manchester-Llandudno diagram in addition to the existing one.

Class 185s can't be upgraded for MU speeds, the issue with them is total mass and axle loading, so to match the current MU speeds, the track quality needs to be upgraded (it's usually bridges that need rebuilt) to support, say, 90mph for all stock rather than 40/90MU.

 

[PHILIPE]

If 185s can be upgraded for MU speeds and the loco and stock plans come to fruition, then you could release all 27 175s and perhaps send them to the South West, or to East Midlands/East Anglia. The 185s and LHCS could then cover all the 175 duties (assuming 5 or 6 rakes of LHCS). 3 car 185s would be a capacity boost over 2-car 175s and the LHCS could cover the busiest Marches diagrams and perhaps another Manchester-Llandudno diagram in addition to the existing one.

Don't forget that Alstom have a purpose built Depot at Chester to maintain 175s although I may have read that this may change. A Depot at Chester wouldn't be very suitably placed to work in the South West.

 

[headshot119]

Class 185s can't be upgraded for MU speeds, the issue with them is total mass and axle loading, so to match the current MU speeds, the track quality needs to be upgraded (it's usually bridges that need rebuilt) to support, say, 90mph for all stock rather than 40/90MU.

Well they could have dispensation granted, like 67+MK3 stock has for the Marches.

 

[edwin_m]

It does in parts. A few examples are Harlescott - Nantwich 90 over 70, Wrexham - Shrewsbury 70 over 60. There's also the (very short) length of a bridge just outside Craven Arms which is a rather dramatic 90 over 40.

That said, given that for at least some of these Gerald has dispensation to run at the higher speeds, it may be possible to do the same for 185s. 185s would also beat 175s on some of the gradients on the line as well one would assume.

Is that a traditional 90 over 70 (etc), which if I recall correctly all passenger trains can use? If it's 90MU/70 then as someone else has pointed out 185s would be restricted to the lower speed.
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Well they could have dispensation granted, like 67+MK3 stock has for the Marches.

I guess that's a possibility in that a 185 has a lower axle loading than a 67. But without knowing the reason for a restriction you can't be certain, and that's usually buried somewhere in NR. For example it may be concern regarding cumulative damage, so it could be the Gerald has derogation based on only one journey per day in each direction (plus occasional extras).

 

[northwichcat]

Don't forget that Alstom have a purpose built Depot at Chester to maintain 175s although I may have read that this may change. A Depot at Chester wouldn't be very suitably placed to work in the South West.

They have submitted plans for a depot in Halton which presumably could manage both the 175s and units for the West Coast franchise. The lease on the Chester depot is apparently near it's end with Arriva looking at the possibly of acquiring it.

 

[craigybagel]

Is that a traditional 90 over 70 (etc), which if I recall correctly all passenger trains can use? If it's 90MU/70 then as someone else has pointed out 185s would be restricted to the lower speed.
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It's 90MU over 70, so no 185s at the higher speeds. There is a bit of the passenger/freight differentials at the Newport end of the line, but at the northern end it's all MU. No differentials at all for the middle section, from around Craven Arms down to Pontypool where as I said earlier, a 185s hill climbing ability would probably beat a 175 comfortably.