Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[Roger B]

I assume the Network Rail 73s that do the measurement run every 4weeks from Derby are allowed to use the loop line as its done in the late night / early hours outside of service hours?

EDIT : Diesel fuel aside they still wouldn't be allowed to use the loop line as the 230s have no cab end emergency doors, so an evacuation couldn't be carried out in the narrow loop tunnels.

Good point re end doors - but then again neither do the top 'n tailed NR trains - coach gangways blocked by a 73! But as you say, they're run out of service hours, and I daresay NR have completed and filed the relevant risk assessments!

 

[ADHDTog]

Went past Birkenhead North TMD yesterday. 230006 & 230009 were stabled there.

 

[anthony263]

If they run the 230s to Liverpool won't that mean an order for additional units from vivarail?

 

[DavidGrain]

If they run the 230s to Liverpool won't that mean an order for additional units from vivarail?

Not if they restrict the 230s to the Borderland Line. It is thought that the idea for runing them on the Conwy Valley and the Crewe Chester line has been dropped.

 

[Bob Price]

Yes it's been mentioned that there are guaging issues on the Conway Valley andk they can't keep time on the Crewes. I find the latter odd as it can't be more than a minute or two.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With an average of only 2.5 miles between stops, would anything above 60mph really make much difference? (Accepted some will have fewer stops.)
50 to 60 reduces the journey time by 12 secs per mile. 60 to 70 is only another 8.5 secs. And you get the benefit for a shorter distance too, as you have the time taken to get from 60 up to 70.
So as is always the case, the first part of an increase in speed gives much more benefit than further increases beyond that.

50mph is a bit optimistic for the current line, it's only 40mph on the Welsh section (Wrexham-Dee Marsh) with hindrances like 25mph over Hawarden Bridge.
Quite a bit of refurb work has been done lately (new steel sleepers, track replacement etc) but I don't think the line speed has been increased.
Dee Marsh-Bidston is 50mph with more-widely-spaced stations, and involves a bit of a climb from both ends.

The Leader article still seems to talk about planning options. and as far as I know only the Deeside Parkway station (replacing Hawarden Bridge) has any funding.
The Deeside Enterprise Zone is very spread out, and is mainly manufacturing and warehouse sites (and currently a Covid test/vaccination centre).
So there will be some commuting potential, but it isn't in any sense a public-friendly or retail centre bringing in visitors at other times.
All the residential/retail areas locally are on the other side of the river in Queensferry/Shotton/Connah's Quay.

 

[craigybagel]

If they run the 230s to Liverpool won't that mean an order for additional units from vivarail?

All 5 are to be used on the borderlands line, that should be sufficient, with eventually 4 in use & 1 spare is the plan.

Not if they restrict the 230s to the Borderland Line. It is thought that the idea for runing them on the Conwy Valley and the Crewe Chester line has been dropped.

They were always planned to be exclusively on the Borderlands line eventually, it's just that date has been brought forward with the abandoning of their temporary deployment in other routes. The plan was that using 4 units gets you a half hourly service - but only between Wrexham and Bidston. If they want to extend to Liverpool they'll need to either order more units or keep the service as hourly.

 

[185]

At the very least, services should immediately be extended to Birkenhead North - better connecting service, and more padding built into a timetable that falls apart with any delay of over 7 mins.

My magic plan would be a 250m tunnel halfway between Bhead Park and Conway Park, turning left onto a curve, join it up with the old docks line, and a new station terminus at the Wirral Waters development just across Corpy Road.

 

[Brissle Girl]

50mph is a bit optimistic for the current line, it's only 40mph on the Welsh section (Wrexham-Dee Marsh) with hindrances like 25mph over Hawarden Bridge.
Quite a bit of refurb work has been done lately (new steel sleepers, track replacement etc) but I don't think the line speed has been increased.
Dee Marsh-Bidston is 50mph with more-widely-spaced stations, and involves a bit of a climb from both ends.

The Leader article still seems to talk about planning options. and as far as I know only the Deeside Parkway station (replacing Hawarden Bridge) has any funding.
The Deeside Enterprise Zone is very spread out, and is mainly manufacturing and warehouse sites (and currently a Covid test/vaccination centre).
So there will be some commuting potential, but it isn't in any sense a public-friendly or retail centre bringing in visitors at other times.
All the residential/retail areas locally are on the other side of the river in Queensferry/Shotton/Connah's Quay.

Indeed, if 50 is already optimistic, then the limitation of the train of 60 is unlikely to be an issue, which was the point I was making in response to the slightly snarky comment about the unit’s maximum speed (although expressed by showing how little time per mile is saved by any incremental increase above 60).

 

[arfortune]

Am loving reading all the speculation on here following that article

 

[southern442]

The plan is to run the 230's in battery mode only & switching off the engines from Birkenhead North to Liverpool James Street only, then terminating at James Street station & shunting into the tunnel neck then return back to the Wrexham.

Could they use platform 2 at James Street?

 

[markymark2000]

Could they use platform 2 at James Street?

It's not accessible is it? I'm sure when the works were on, the advice for passengers was to get a New Brighton/West Kirkby train to Hamilton Square and change then onto a Chester/EPort train (which were using P2 at James Street)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The plan is to run the 230's in battery mode only & switching off the engines from Birkenhead North to Liverpool James Street only, then terminating at James Street station & shunting into the tunnel neck then return back to the Wrexham.

This plan avoids the Liverpool loop line & is ideal for commutters wanting a direct link to Liverpool from Wrexham.

It saves mersey rail purchasing more specific battery 777 units, especially as the new 777 units aren't even in service yet.
Plus all the extra infastructure costs to boost or charge the 777 units.

The 230's are planned for a may timetable introduction depending on traincrew training & running just 1 unit in service initially Wrexham-Bidston. The 2nd unit running being a 150 on the route.

I will believe that when I see it

 

[DavidGrain]

It's not accessible is it? I'm sure when the works were on, the advice for passengers was to get a New Brighton/West Kirkby train to Hamilton Square and change then onto a Chester/EPort train (which were using P2 at James Street)

RTT today shows several workings through platform 2 as well as several trains which reverse in Platform 2. None of these are passenger workings but the track exists. However if TfW do get to Liverpool James Street, I do not expect it to be this year so there is plenty of time to spruce up the platform and the passenger access to it.

I see that this is my post number 1066, that number rings a bell.

 

[D365]

The plan is to run the 230's in battery mode only & switching off the engines from Birkenhead North to Liverpool James Street only, then terminating at James Street station & shunting into the tunnel neck then return back to the Wrexham.

Has this been confirmed publicly?

 

[southern442]

RTT today shows several workings through platform 2 as well as several trains which reverse in Platform 2. None of these are passenger workings but the track exists. However if TfW do get to Liverpool James Street, I do not expect it to be this year so there is plenty of time to spruce up the platform and the passenger access to it.

Unless he meant not accessible for disabled people? Which is a (fairly) easy fix but they'd have to be serious about running the service to want to do it.

 

[L401CJF]

Unless he meant not accessible for disabled people? Which is a (fairly) easy fix but they'd have to be serious about running the service to want to do it.

This is what I thought, as far as i know the platform has no ramp or lift access, stairs only.

 

[markymark2000]

Y

Unless he meant not accessible for disabled people? Which is a (fairly) easy fix but they'd have to be serious about running the service to want to do it.

Yes, that is what I meant. Disability accessible.

A fix can be done but is it easy? It's quite historic and will be expensive. Be much cheaper and easier for all if the service ran around the loop.

 

[craigybagel]

Y

Yes, that is what I meant. Disability accessible.

A fix can be done but is it easy? It's quite historic and will be expensive. Be much cheaper and easier for all if the service ran around the loop.

That's debatable. Given platform 1 was made accessible (and platform 3 was presumably built that way from day 1) it might not be all that hard to make platform 2 accessible too. On the other hand, it may well be that the technical requirements for trains to be able to work around the loop are a lot more arduous then just turning back in platform 2, which would make that a cheaper option overall. I'm not saying it's definitely the case, just a possibility.

I will add however I reckon the chances of the 230s making it to Liverpool are virtually nil. They've only ordered enough to run a half hourly service on the existing line. If they're going to go to all the hassle of extending to Liverpool I would suspect it's more likely with a purpose built fleet some time in the medium future when the 230s become life expired.

I doubt Merseyrail would be happy to have invested in a high performance fleet, only to have their units held up following a rather less high performance 230 all the way to Liverpool - and if it does go round the loop, all the way back to Bidston as well.

 

[yorkie]

Am loving reading all the speculation on here following that article

Just a gentle reminder to all that we absolutely do welcome, indeed encourage, speculation

However we do ask that this is posted in the Speculative Ideas section please.

This thread is dedicated to updates regarding the introduction of Class 230 trains on the Borderlands Line and the forum has plenty of spare capacity for anyone to create a thread in any appropriate forum to discuss anything else

Thanks!

 

[Ribbleman]

That's debatable. Given platform 1 was made accessible (and platform 3 was presumably built that way from day 1) it might not be all that hard to make platform 2 accessible too. On the other hand, it may well be that the technical requirements for trains to be able to work around the loop are a lot more arduous then just turning back in platform 2, which would make that a cheaper option overall. I'm not saying it's definitely the case, just a possibility.

I will add however I reckon the chances of the 230s making it to Liverpool are virtually nil. They've only ordered enough to run a half hourly service on the existing line. If they're going to go to all the hassle of extending to Liverpool I would suspect it's more likely with a purpose built fleet some time in the medium future when the 230s become life expired.

I doubt Merseyrail would be happy to have invested in a high performance fleet, only to have their units held up following a rather less high performance 230 all the way to Liverpool - and if it does go round the loop, all the way back to Bidston as well.

There is no way that a Class 230 would be allowed around the loop. As has been stated many times, passenger carrying vehicles containing diesel fuel are forbidden. Add that to the fact that they have no end doors in the cabs, to allow for evacuation in an emergency, so they would be banned twice over.
I find the suggestion that there is a plan to run these units into Platform 2 at James Street unlikely. The line is used for stock transfers during the day and the movement of the MPV from one side of the river to the other, apart from its role during engineering work. To make that platform accessible would require a new lift shaft to be excavated, certainly not a cheap or easy fix.
Through services from Liverpool on the line towards Wrexham may be on the horizon, but they are far more likely to be provided by a derivative of Class 777 equipped with batteries.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I will add however I reckon the chances of the 230s making it to Liverpool are virtually nil. They've only ordered enough to run a half hourly service on the existing line. If they're going to go to all the hassle of extending to Liverpool I would suspect it's more likely with a purpose built fleet some time in the medium future when the 230s become life expired.

Not totally disagreeing "Craigy" but wasn't the original briefing from TfW that the 230s would be used on the Blaenau branch and Chester-Crewe as well as the Borderlands ? I always thought it extremely unlikely to diagram at least three out of the fleet of five, to three geographically separate routes, even though Chester andWrexham / Bidston are not too far from each other.

Perhaps TfW retrospectively decided to enhance the Borderlands frequency by keeping the 230s to that route.

 

[jamesst]

There is no way that a Class 230 would be allowed around the loop. As has been stated many times, passenger carrying vehicles containing diesel fuel are forbidden. Add that to the fact that they have no end doors in the cabs, to allow for evacuation in an emergency, so they would be banned twice over.
I find the suggestion that there is a plan to run these units into Platform 2 at James Street unlikely. The line is used for stock transfers during the day and the movement of the MPV from one side of the river to the other, apart from its role during engineering work. To make that platform accessible would require a new lift shaft to be excavated, certainly not a cheap or easy fix.
Through services from Liverpool on the line towards Wrexham may be on the horizon, but they are far more likely to be provided by a derivative of Class 777 equipped with batteries.

Aswell as that don't forget there's a single bore tunnel between Hamilton Square and Conway Park where the West Kirby line dives under the Chester.
This will pretty much stop class 230 units even going to James Street due to the lack of a nose end door.

 

[notlob.divad]

There is no way that a Class 230 would be allowed around the loop. As has been stated many times, passenger carrying vehicles containing diesel fuel are forbidden. Add that to the fact that they have no end doors in the cabs, to allow for evacuation in an emergency, so they would be banned twice over.
I find the suggestion that there is a plan to run these units into Platform 2 at James Street unlikely. The line is used for stock transfers during the day and the movement of the MPV from one side of the river to the other, apart from its role during engineering work. To make that platform accessible would require a new lift shaft to be excavated, certainly not a cheap or easy fix.
Through services from Liverpool on the line towards Wrexham may be on the horizon, but they are far more likely to be provided by a derivative of Class 777 equipped with batteries.

My understanding of James Street (and it is an awful long time since I used it so please forgive me if I am wrong) But everyone heading to and from the Wirral bound Platform 3, has to cross above platform 2 anyway. So any new lift to make paltform 2 accesible would only have to go between platform level and the bridge above. That said, there are plenty of other works that need doing if the platform is going to be brought back in to normal use.

 

[krus_aragon]

Not totally disagreeing "Craigy" but wasn't the original briefing from TfW that the 230s would be used on the Blaenau branch and Chester-Crewe as well as the Borderlands ? I always thought it extremely unlikely to diagram at least three out of the fleet of five, to three geographically separate routes, even though Chester andWrexham / Bidston are not too far from each other.

Perhaps TfW retrospectively decided to enhance the Borderlands frequency by keeping the 230s to that route.

The original plan was quite smart (imho) to use the first 230 on the Conwy Valley. Why? The branch is "one engine in use" these days, so if it broke down south of Llandudno Jn it wouldn't be in anyone's way, just summon a bus (which has often been the case in recent years). A failure on the Borderlands would cause trouble for passenger and freight trains alike.

Crewe services always felt a bit odd to me too; perhaps people were just looking at how to use 4/5 of the units before the Borderlands required 4 itselsf...

 

[PHILIPE]

Not totally disagreeing "Craigy" but wasn't the original briefing from TfW that the 230s would be used on the Blaenau branch and Chester-Crewe as well as the Borderlands ? I always thought it extremely unlikely to diagram at least three out of the fleet of five, to three geographically separate routes, even though Chester andWrexham / Bidston are not too far from each other.

Perhaps TfW retrospectively decided to enhance the Borderlands frequency by keeping the 230s to that route.

It is known that the infrastructure on the Conwy Valley and 230s are not compatible and 60 mph 230s were later ruled out from running on the Main Line between Chester and Crewe. This is long in the past so there are 5 x 230s to run 2 trains per hour between Wrexham and Bidston and one spare for Maintenance . There will be something buried in this now lengthy thread Also, I don't know what the actual problem is on the Conwy Valley but not a cheap fix.

 

[craigybagel]

Not totally disagreeing "Craigy" but wasn't the original briefing from TfW that the 230s would be used on the Blaenau branch and Chester-Crewe as well as the Borderlands ? I always thought it extremely unlikely to diagram at least three out of the fleet of five, to three geographically separate routes, even though Chester andWrexham / Bidston are not too far from each other.

Perhaps TfW retrospectively decided to enhance the Borderlands frequency by keeping the 230s to that route.

The original plan was quite smart (imho) to use the first 230 on the Conwy Valley. Why? The branch is "one engine in use" these days, so if it broke down south of Llandudno Jn it wouldn't be in anyone's way, just summon a bus (which has often been the case in recent years). A failure on the Borderlands would cause trouble for passenger and freight trains alike.

Crewe services always felt a bit odd to me too; perhaps people were just looking at how to use 4/5 of the units before the Borderlands required 4 itselsf...

It is known that the infrastructure on the Conwy Valley and 230s are not compatible and 60 mph 230s were later ruled out from running on the Main Line between Chester and Crewe. This is long in the past so there are 5 x 230s to run 2 trains per hour between Wrexham and Bidston and one spare for Maintenance . There will be something buried in this now lengthy thread Also, I don't know what the actual problem is on the Conwy Valley but not a cheap fix.

The original plan was for two phases. Initially, the units were indeed to be deployed as mentioned by Wyrleybart - 1 to Blaneau, 1 to Crewe - Chester and 2 to Bidston, with the fifth unit spare. This was only ever meant to be a temporary measure however; the CAFs were always planned to take over from the 230s on Blaneau and Crewe - Chester in 2023/4, at which point the other 230s were to join the rest on Bidston and double the frequency of that route.

Instead it would appear that that plan has been abandoned and instead they're going straight to the second phase with the entire fleet being deployed on Bidston.

 

[Gareth]

Borderlands trains into James Street is an absurd, trainspottery fantasy.

You have a high frequency third rail system with a uniform fleet run by a locally devolved franchise which is near enough entirely separate from the rest of the network and you want to put an hourly non-standard rail vehicle from another company into the underground section and reversing at busy James Street? What could possibly go wrong?

At best, Borderlands trains will make it to Birkenhead North, as they once did. Besides, unless people want the waterfront, they will want to change onto a Merseyrail service anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Borderlands trains into James Street is an absurd, trainspottery fantasy.

You have a high frequency third rail system with a uniform fleet run by a locally devolved franchise which is near enough entirely separate from the rest of the network and you want to put an hourly non-standard rail vehicle from another company into the underground section and reversing at busy James Street? What could possibly go wrong?

If there is a concern about reliability, then they shouldn't be operating anywhere yet (cf: Marston Vale). If they are reliable and there's a path, why not? They would be using a dedicated platform which is already there, though it might require addition of a lift, I forget if it has one or not.

At best, Borderlands trains will make it to Birkenhead North, as they once did. Besides, unless people want the waterfront, they will want to change onto a Merseyrail service anyway.

Liverpool City Centre has very much shifted north with Liverpool One, and a lot of the employment in offices is that end anyway, so I'm not sure. Does everyone arriving at Manchester Victoria get on the tram? It's not London, it's a very compact and walkable centre.

 

[Gareth]

Thought you were a fan of "S-bahns", Neil.

Let's face it, the biggest reason Merseyrail is such a success is the high frequency, uniform all-stops service delivered by one company overseen by the local transit authority.

I wasn't insinuating anything about the reliability of the specific rolling stock, although I'd argue that an old District line unit converted to DMU and running on battery on the Merseyrail network has a somewhat experimental aspect to it (no doubt a big part of the trainspottery attraction to the idea). More, I was talking of a single, bespoke hourly service coming in and reversing out of a station that current sees 14tph going into and out of it.

And upsetting the uniform experience of a metro system is more than just an aesthetic consideration. For instance: is it possible to cater for level boarding at stations with both types of unit? Presumably, platform edge doors or gates, not an immediate prospect admittedly, would have to be ruled out or even just painting where the 4 & 8 car trains stop and where their doors will be - things Merseyrail could consider, once the new stock finally takes over, that much of the rest of the rail network cannot. Speaking of doors, the Class 230 isn't exactly known for fast closing doors and quick dwell times. Not going to exactly help at Hamilton Square at busy times.

And comparing anywhere to London isn't especially helpful. Of course Liverpool is small if using that yardstick. But if you want Lime Street, the Hospital and the area around the university, James Street is a bloody good walk and an uphill one. If I was on a Borderlands train, I wouldn't think twice about changing at Birkenhead North for 8tph into Lime Street or Central.

Regardless, this is one of the seldom occasions where the reality machine is on my side - it isn't going to happen.