Class 319 Northern departure

[pokemonsuper9]

323s to Blackpool though would probably take some work. Blackpool, Blackburn? Victoria and Wigan would all need to be trained eventually... Liverpool, Buxton and Piccadilly of course already sign them

Wigan (and Victoria too?) would need to learn them for when electrification from Wigan-Lostock Jn is done.
Albeit that's in 2025 so there's time.

 

[jonesy3001]

Wonder if they'll use the 323 that's transferring on Saturday from wmt for training or will it be put straight into service?

 

[Lampshade]

I mean it was like that for years so it won't be too much of a surprise for the passengers.

Just because things were terrible once, doesn't mean they should be terrible again

331s to 323s is a significant downgrade, I'd probably start driving to work again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just because things were terrible once, doesn't mean they should be terrible again

331s to 323s is a significant downgrade, I'd probably start driving to work again.

Given that much demand comes from Preston and Chorley rather than Blackpool, I wonder if this might have an unintended effect of pushing people towards (and causing overcrowding on) the 195-operated Cumbria services?

I too am unconvinced that 3+2 is appropriate for these services.

 

[Liam L]

Wonder if they'll use the 323 that's transferring on Saturday from wmt for training or will it be put straight into service?

Why would there be a need for training unless there training more drivers to sign them?

 

[jonesy3001]

Why would there be a need for training unless there training more drivers to sign them?

Post 58 explains which drivers need training.

 

[td97]

I mean it was like that for years so it won't be too much of a surprise for the passengers.

It will after 4 years of almost exclusive 331 operation.

331s to 323s is a significant downgrade, I'd probably start driving to work again.

It can't be understated how many people take advantage of the table provision and use their work laptops during the journey.

Given that much demand comes from Preston and Chorley rather than Blackpool... I too am unconvinced that 3+2 is appropriate for these services.

Using Preston/Chorley as a metric means Manchester Vic to Clitheroe/Blackburn should also be worthy of exclusive 2+2 then?
Ideally the 323s would go to Leeds on Doncaster/Ilkley/Skipton routes, which are purely commuter/local, and 331s to the North West for use on semi-fast/inter-urban routes, but Northern's training situation has led to this suboptimal 323 situation.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

With apologies for being OT, a little correction required:

You did get 150s and Pacers, but not intentionally, more because of Northern's very tight use of their fleet resulting in the "random unit generator".

I can assure you that 150s were diagrammed for some Man Vic-Blackpool trains right up until electrification. In practice as far as Buxton/Manchester/Blackpool services were concerned the 150s and 156s were interchangeable.

Never saw a 158 or any 153s ever, though.

But they certainly did happen on a planned basis even if you didn't witness it for yourself. At one point there was a pm peak Stockport-Blackpool booked 150+153. And the diagramming for York-Blackpool was such that to ensure units saw the inside of an actual maintenance depot within normal mileage limits a late evening service in each direction between Victoria and Blackpool was booked for a 158 as part of those diagrams.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Using Preston/Chorley as a metric means Manchester Vic to Clitheroe/Blackburn should also be worthy of exclusive 2+2 then?

To be fair I can't see a case for 3+2 anywhere on the network full stop. It's been proven multiple times that high loadings are handled better by narrow 2+2 and a wider aisle, which would be achieved cheaply by removing the third seat from the 323s (hasn't that already been done in one middle section?)

 

[Lampshade]

At one point there was a pm peak Stockport-Blackpool booked 150+153.

I remember this one well, it used P1 at Manchester Oxford Road, seem to remember it being a 156+153.

 

[deltic08]

He hasn't died. The cancer treatment he reportedly underwent earlier this year was successful.

I didn't say he had died.

 

[sprinterguy]

I didn't say he had died.

In order to spin in his grave, he would had to have died beforehand, or the idiom is misplaced.

 

[Trainguy34]

In order to spin in his grave, he would have had to beforehand, or the idiom is misplaced.

(Slightly OT) Or be buried alive. Unlikely but possible.

 

[sprinterguy]

(Slightly OT) Or be buried alive. Unlikely but possible.

Perhaps, though I'd imagine that might make the news in short order. And I think it's generally accepted that the individual(s) referred to have to be both dead AND buried for the turn of phrase to apply.

 

[diligentdave]

Why would there be a need for training unless there training more drivers to sign them?

Apparently it will be chucked straight out into service after receiving a conversion exam.

 

[mcnw35282]

Deleted

Over 3 days last month I did 6 different Chat Moss SX peak hours trains by 319, two a.m. peak, four p.m. peak.

None were "crush loaded".

Not were even standing.

Not even full. Empty seats.

I had a 4 seat bay in the 2+3 layout to myself on three runs.

Admittedly one of these trains was a contra flow Wigan into Manchester p.m. evening so don't really count i.e. 16:30 Wigan Manchester - but just to focus on the light load I WAS THE ONLY PASSENGER ON THE TRAIN FROM START TO END

Speaking as a Luton commuter of 25 years on Thameslink 319s, you can't have experienced a truly crush loaded 319 so loaded it is down on it's suspension bump stops and the doors won't close, and I don't believe the total pax on a 'crush loaded' 323 is much different to a 'crush loaded' 319.

Well, as wonderful as your attempted anecdote is for those of us who have to deal with this crap every day...just for a laugh, why not try catching a train from St Helens Junction into Liverpool on a Saturday between 11am and 3pm and remind me again how wonderful Northern's provision on one of the busiest routes in the North West is.

When you've seen passengers with prams REFUSED access to the train because there's no room, why don't you go and tell that passenger they should've travelled during the week instead...cos then they'd have had a whole train to themselves!

 

[Geeves]

Tomorrow should see a few more 323s spreading their wings including 208 which potentially goes on Liverpool - Blackpool work. We will see.

 

[AMD]

Tomorrow should see a few more 323s spreading their wings including 208 which potentially goes on Liverpool - Blackpool work. We will see.

I hope planning has thought this one through carefully!!
(only Liverpool sign 323s and the route and Wigan & Blackpool cover a lot of the workings)

 

[Bevan Price]

Deleted


Well, as wonderful as your attempted anecdote is for those of us who have to deal with this crap every day...just for a laugh, why not try catching a train from St Helens Junction into Liverpool on a Saturday between 11am and 3pm and remind me again how wonderful Northern's provision on one of the busiest routes in the North West is.

When you've seen passengers with prams REFUSED access to the train because there's no room, why don't you go and tell that passenger they should've travelled during the week instead...cos then they'd have had a whole train to themselves!

Hardly. Some of the midweek offpeak services on that route can be very overcrowded. Northern have supposedly said that longer trains are to be provided from the December timetable (presumably 4 coach 331/1s.)

 

[150101]

This weekend coming or the end of November?

Noticed 319375 has been panned down at the far end of the headshunt at Allerton for a good couple of days now with the T.I.S and E.B.S isolated and hasn't moved. Every chance it could be waiting on a repair but wouldn't be surprised if its completed its last working for Northern.

 

[jonesy3001]

Noticed 319375 has been panned down at the far end of the headshunt at Allerton for a good couple of days now with the T.I.S and E.B.S isolated and hasn't moved. Every chance it could be waiting on a repair but wouldn't be surprised if its completed its last working for Northern.

See post 30 in this thread.

 

[LowLevel]

Won't be long now. 319375 already marked for disposal for the end of the month. One of the first WMT 323's will be heading North on the 28th.

Sat at the Hunts Cross end of the headshunt at Allerton pan down and safety system flags up in the windows so I assume it's been stopped and is dead.

 

[Greybeard33]

From the December timetable thread:

FOI for Northern LTPs, noticeable changes with transfer swaps on 331s, no more 319s and more incoming 323s from WMT.

Train diagrams for December 2023 to June 2024 - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

Is it possible you could send me the train diagrams for December 2023 to June 2024 Yours faithfully, sean white

www.whatdotheyknow.com

These Long Term Plan diagrams were issued in September, so there may well be some Short Term Plan amendments from the start of the timetable. They do not make use of 323208, which has now migrated north from WMT.

It appears that only nine 3-car 331/0s are going from Allerton to Neville Hill for the start of the timetable, in exchange for the twelve 4-car 331/1s. Thereby sharing the pain of the 319 withdrawal across the Pennines.

I have compiled the attached PDF to summarise the M-F EMU diagrams in the North West (apologies in advance for any errors).

The 17 323s are deployed mainly on workings out of Piccadilly to Alderley Edge, Crewe, Stoke and Hadfield. There is one Lime Street 323 diagram, alternating between Wigan NW and Manchester Airport via Chat Moss workings.

Many of the 331 diagrams only run to the end of December, with some others ending in early February and some more in mid-April. Only a few run through to the end of the timetable (31 May). There is no indication what changes might occur at these intermediate dates. The LTP diagrams will presumably be replaced by STP diagrams, which might involve some shuffling around to introduce ex-WMT 323s in place of 331/0s. This might allow some other 331 services to be strengthened and/or more 331/0s to be sent to Yorkshire. Also the 331/0 fleet is very intensively diagrammed in December, with 20 of the 22 units in traffic M-F. Possibly more exams will be needed in the New Year.

Until end December:

• The majority of the Blackpool - Airport services will be 6-car, with the remainder 4-car.
• The majority of the Lime Street - Blackpool services will be 4-car, with the remainder 3-car.
• The majority of the Lime Street - Wigan services will be 4-car, with the remainder 3-car (complex diagramming, with some interworking with Chat Moss and Blackpool services).

Until 9th February:

• Most Chat Moss services will be 3-car, with a few 4-car workings.

Until 19th April:

• The evening peak Wigan NW - Victoria via Golborne services will all be 3-car 331s, while half the morning peak services will be 4-car.

Throughout the timetable period:

• All Hadfield services will be worked by 323s.
• Most Crewe and Stoke services will be worked by 323s, with a few worked by 3-car 331s.
• Alderley Edge services will be split 50-50 between a 323 and a 3-car 331.

Edit: 323 Lime St - Wigan workings added per post #89

 

[Adam0984]

319375 is marked up for a 1 way trip to Newport on 15th Nov
333s aren't going onto Doncaster yet
3 car 331s will be concentrated on the runs to Bradford rather than the busier Leeds - Skipton/Ilkley which seems like they'll run a different train diagram pattern to the current full triangle, Ilkley and Skipton pattern

 

[317 forever]

Some of them have been refurbished twice, once with purple seats then blue seats, for just 8-9 years in service.

 

[deltic08]

In order to spin in his grave, he would had to have died beforehand, or the idiom is misplaced.

You have missed the whole point of me saying that. How many electrification projects did he pause/cancel? 4 to my knowledge,
I am no going to say what I really think as I will gain the wrath of the moderators.

 

[TheLunaPark]

You have missed the whole point of me saying that. How many electrification projects did he pause/cancel? 4 to my knowledge,
I am no going to say what I really think as I will gain the wrath of the moderators.

Not to go too off topic but I also interpreted your original comment as implying Chris Grayling had died. So not really sure what the point is that we've apparently missed.

 

[Neptune]

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/146831/where-does-spinning-in-his-grave-come-from#:~:text=When%20there's%20someone%20who's%20dead,is%20spinning%20in%20their%20grave.

Dxenholme-Windermere electrification unlikely then! £15M in 2017 is at least £30M now and still diesels under wires. Where are the bimodes Grayling promised?
He should be spinning in his grave for deceiving us.

Reading what was actually typed and looking at the meaning of the phrase actually suggests a belief that he should die to enable him to spin in his grave or have I missed something here?

 

[thegilb]

There is one 323 diagram on chat moss and Wigan.

 

[YorkRailFan]

It's also interesting that Northern posted on their Twitter/X that they are adding Water Trak to 16 of their trains, and the video does show the 319.

Thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-319-water-trak.255599/#post-6437425

Video:https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/1709164764696293880?s=46&t=oZJyDKZnhb9ve63ZxuZafg