Class 365 - What if they werent scrapped?

[liamf656]

Having been heavily discussed it is now understood that the Class 365 fleet are in storage with an uncertain future

To not let that thread get carried away into speculation, I thought I would branch off into this one. It may be a difficult one to answer given the amount of available EMUs currently, but where would you put the class to give them a new lease of life? Let’s see how far the fantasies go

Edit Oct 2021:
I've updated the title of this thread to better reflect the current status of the class, as the writing has been on the wall for them for a while now and the first few units have now gone for scrap. Discussions are still welcome, as a "what could have been"

Link to the existing thread:

Class 365 scrap movements + preservation discussion

As originally posted by 365 Networker: Withdrawal has now been confirmed by Great Northern in Modern Railways:- GTR to stand down ‘365s’ (keymodernrailways.com) The article does say that GTR will 'work with the Department for Transport' to introduce additional trains once the Gatwick Express...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[waverley47]

The only realistic option in the short term is either GWR, or ScotRail following further electrification, but both are very very unlikely.

They're not going to get third rail shoes installed, and there is a surplus of EMUs, so noone really could make use of them immediately. Remember anyone in the market for 30 or so four car EMUs would have picked up the 320s as they went got scrap, and the 350/2s are coming off lease shortly.

They're just not really useful at the moment. With immediate further electrification and an unwillingness to purchase new fleets, they might find a home, but that's a long shot.

 

[Hadders]

The best hope for the future is probably an uptick in passenger numbers on the GN necessitating reinstatement of the peak extra services they used to run pre-covid. They could then return to their previous duties.

Somewhat unlikely I suspect.

 

[A0wen]

The best hope for the future is probably an uptick in passenger numbers on the GN necessitating reinstatement of the peak extra services they used to run pre-covid. They could then return to their previous duties.

Somewhat unlikely I suspect.

I really don't get this obsession with trying to keep 25+ year old rolling stock on the national network. Apart from a few enthusiasts, it makes little difference to the travelling public.

If GN needed extra stock the soon to be available Class 350/2s would be a *far* better choice, being a little over 10 years old and a more standard design than the 365s.

The only realistic option in the short term is either GWR, or ScotRail following further electrification, but both are very very unlikely.

They're not going to get third rail shoes installed, and there is a surplus of EMUs, so noone really could make use of them immediately. Remember anyone in the market for 30 or so four car EMUs would have picked up the 320s as they went got scrap, and the 350/2s are coming off lease shortly.

They're just not really useful at the moment. With immediate further electrification and an unwillingness to purchase new fleets, they might find a home, but that's a long shot.

BIB I think you mean 321s ? But yes, I agree either 321s or 350/2s would be a much better bet for a number of reasons.

 

[Journeyman]

Yup, they're going for scrap. They've had a respectable lifespan and were worked hard.

Let's move on.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I would imagine that a 365 may turn up in my bathroom in the form of a pack of razor blades within the next few years.

 

[Journeyman]

But yes, I agree either 321s or 350/2s would be a much better bet for a number of reasons.

Yeah - both 321s and 350s are parts of much bigger families of rolling stock, so are easier to maintain, and far more people know how to drive and operate them.

OK, the 365s have some commonality with Southeastern's Networkers, but they can't operate alongside them, so they're a nonstandard microfleet. The 465s haven't got a very bright future either.

 

[Neptune]

As EMU’s I suspect they’re done for however they could make the basis for alternative fuel trials.

If not then a visit to the scrapyard is most likely.

 

[A0wen]

As EMU’s I suspect they’re done for however they could make the basis for alternative fuel trials.

If not then a visit to the scrapyard is most likely.

I fail to see why 365s are particularly well suited to that role though.

Once again either the 321s or 350/2s would be a better start point, particularly the latter as they are already more modern and could pave the way for more recent EMUs to be retrofitted with equipment as necessary. The 365s non-standard nature doesn't help in that regard.

 

[Neptune]

I fail to see why 365s are particularly well suited to that role though.

Once again either the 321s or 350/2s would be a better start point, particularly the latter as they are already more modern and could pave the way for more recent EMUs to be retrofitted with equipment as necessary. The 365s non-standard nature doesn't help in that regard.

Check my wording.

As EMU’s I suspect they’re done for however they could make the basis for alternative fuel trials.

I never said the word should nor did I suggest they should be a passenger service fleet.

Whether it’s 321, 350 or 365 they’d be non standard.

 

[A0wen]

Check my wording.


I never said the word should nor did I suggest they should be a passenger service fleet.

Whether it’s 321, 350 or 365 they’d be non standard.

I did - the fact still remains of those 3 classes the 365s are by far the most non-standard - and that makes them less suitable than the others for such a trial. And my point was if you were picking, the 350/2s would make most sense because they are the most modern design and have variants in use for the foreseeable future on the UK railway network, so any changes made could be more easily adapted to other classes.

 

[WideRanger]

I am sure that there are good reasons why it is not possible, but what about:

• A stopping service (more than the current long distance services) from Leeds or Newcastle to Edinburgh, perhaps replacing Cross Country.
• Birmingham to Manchester Cross Country service.

If the infrastructure is in place, and space electric trains, it does seem wrong to be running Diesel trains on the route unless there is a good reason.

 

[A0wen]

I am sure that there are good reasons why it is not possible, but what about:

• A stopping service (more than the current long distance services) from Leeds or Newcastle to Edinburgh, perhaps replacing Cross Country.
• Birmingham to Manchester Cross Country service.

If the infrastructure is in place, and space electric trains, it does seem wrong to be running Diesel trains on the route unless there is a good reason.

Could be provided using other available EMUs, doesn't need 365s being added to a fleet where they will continue to be non standard.

The 350/2s would be suitable for either of those suggestions.

 

[swt_passenger]

I am sure that there are good reasons why it is not possible, but what about:

• A stopping service (more than the current long distance services) from Leeds or Newcastle to Edinburgh, perhaps replacing Cross Country…

If the infrastructure is in place, and space electric trains, it does seem wrong to be running Diesel trains on the route unless there is a good reason.

The infrastructure for your first suggestion, at least between Newcastle and Edinburgh, definitely isn’t in place - there are far too many fast services to add a stopper, which is basically why Reston is only getting a token service. It’s not really a rolling stock problem at all.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

Could an intermediate diesel module be added to the consist like the new Greater Anglia trains? It could then have a much improved route availability.

 

[JonathanH]

Could an intermediate diesel module be added to the consist like the new Greater Anglia trains? It could then have a much improved route availability.

Building something new for a fleet with limited life expectancy is putting good money towards bad, unless you have a plan to put the module into a new build project once the carriages are life expired.

 

[Journeyman]

Could be provided using other available EMUs, doesn't need 365s being added to a fleet where they will continue to be non standard.

The 350/2s would be suitable for either of those suggestions.

There always seems to be a desperate attempt to invent new services whenever popular rolling stock gets the chop.

 

[Aictos]

The thing with the Class 365s is there are newer and more modern trains available for example if we use the Manchester to Birmingham route then while 8 car Class 365s could be used, why would you when you have the potential of more modern Class 350/2s that also has inter unit gangways which with a refurbishment would be more suited.

We could transfer them back to Scotland on the currently being electrified lines to East Kilbride and Barrhead for a period of time but then again, Transport Scotland could just order a batch of Class 385s etc

 

[Paul Jones 88]

Why not build a new Class 365 with the latest build and safety standards being's that it's a popular design?
The popularity of the 365 design is surely proof that it is a design that encourages passengers to use the railway as opposed to certain modern designs that encourage passengers to use their cars.

 

[Journeyman]

Why not build a new Class 365 with the latest build and safety standards being's that it's a popular design?

That'll be the Aventra.

The popularity of the 365 design is surely proof that it is a design that encourages passengers to use the railway as opposed to certain modern designs that encourage passengers to use their cars.

Only enthusiasts like them particularly.

 

[Hadders]

365s have an almost perfect layout for outer suburban services, which is what people liked about them. For example:

- Decent seats, I've never heard anyone complain about them in more than 20 years of almost daily travelling on them
- Reasonable seat pitch
- Good window layout
- Good mix of bays and airline seats catering for groups and families (admittedly slightly ruined by the GTR dumbing down refresh in 2015)
- 2+2 seating with wide aisles allowing plenty of standing passengers during disruption and busy times
- Fast loading thanks to the wide doors, large vestibules and triangular tables

The original layout included carpet and was probably the best fitted outer-suburban layout on the network. I took a a spin with a couple of forum members (not 365 regualrs) in the final week of 365 operation and they were impressed by the layout and spaciousness.

Of course enthusiasts also like:

- the fantastic whining sound of the motors
- the hopper windows

In fact there was nothing quite like travelling on a 365 on a hot summer evening on the down fast at 100mph with all the windows open . A wind in the hair experience, sadly missed.

 

[bramling]

There always seems to be a desperate attempt to invent new services whenever popular rolling stock gets the chop.

The 365s don’t need new services - everyone was quite happy with them where they were.

 

[skyhigh]

The infrastructure for your first suggestion, at least between Newcastle and Edinburgh, definitely isn’t in place - there are far too many fast services to add a stopper, which is basically why Reston is only getting a token service. It’s not really a rolling stock problem at all.

Not only that, there's also a bit of a gap in the OHLE from Leeds to Edinburgh...

 

[jamieP]

The best hope for the future is probably an uptick in passenger numbers on the GN necessitating reinstatement of the peak extra services they used to run pre-covid. They could then return to their previous duties.

Somewhat unlikely I suspect.

387s will be used.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not only that, there's also a bit of a gap in the OHLE from Leeds to Edinburgh...

Well yes, another slight snag…

 

[A0wen]

Why not build a new Class 365 with the latest build and safety standards being's that it's a popular design?
The popularity of the 365 design is surely proof that it is a design that encourages passengers to use the railway as opposed to certain modern designs that encourage passengers to use their cars.

What evidence (beyond anecdotes on here) is there that somehow 365s are viewed more favourably than the Electrostars or Desiros which have followed ?

Having travelled on all 3, I'd place the latter far ahead of 365s, both from a ride comfort and overall passenger comfort perspective, not least because the latter 2 are air-con'd, which means a quieter journey and as a hayfever sufferer a more pleasant atmosphere.

I don't believe for one minute the rolling stock is the deciding factor between somebody choosing to drive and using the train - there are far more important considerations, particularly for a 'normal' member of the public rather than the enthusiast fraternity.

 

[Energy]

I don't believe for one minute the rolling stock is the deciding factor between somebody choosing to drive and using the train - there are far more important considerations, particularly for a 'normal' member of the public rather than the enthusiast fraternity.

Generally people are more concerned about the price, reliability, speed and frequency of the train. Rolling stock will be an after thought and most won't think about it at all.

 

[A0wen]

Generally people are more concerned about the price, reliability, speed and frequency of the train. Rolling stock will be an after thought and most won't think about it at all.

Exactly - and your average punter won't make a particular note that a 365 is that different to a 321 or 350 or whatever else, providing the train turns up and they get a seat. If a 4 car turns up rammed to the rafters they would remember that though.

 

[43096]

Only enthusiasts like them particularly.

And Her Majesty. She much prefers them to the 387s.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

My mum is not a railway enthusiast, however, she knows the difference between a 455 and a 377 on her local line, she prefers 455s because of the opening windows.