Class 365 - What if they werent scrapped?

[bramling]

They were good units and better than what replaced them but let's not go too far. They had not enough luggage racks or bike spaces and the luggage racks were uncomfortable when you had to sit on them on busy peak service.

Als o, they were better than many diesels than remain in service now. It's a heart shame that they are scrapped before.

I went home on a pair of 387s this evening, first time in a while, and it merely reminded me why I dislike them.

The hard seats which tip you forwards, the armrests which are too high and the one next to the window which is fixed down, the tables which are slightly too far away from the seats to be comfortable to use, the airless feeling, the rough ride where every now and again you will get jolted from one side to another, the constant bleeping from the door sounders whilst waiting to leave King’s Cross, and also now they are becoming quite careworn inside.

From a user’s point of view in their current form they offer nothing over a 365 bar plug sockets, and on the debit side a number of drawbacks. To be fair a lot of this could be fairly easily fixed and fundamentally they’re a decent train, but GTR can’t really say substituting 387s for 365s is an enhancement, it isn’t.

 

[A0wen]

The hard seats which tip you forwards, the armrests which are too high and the one next to the window which is fixed down, the tables which are slightly too far away from the seats to be comfortable to use, the airless feeling, the rough ride where every now and again you will get jolted from one side to another, the constant bleeping from the door sounders whilst waiting to leave King’s Cross, and also now they are becoming quite careworn inside.

.

All completely subjective. On the few occasions I used 387s - a couple of times on GN and when they were on the MML, I found them to be comfortable, smooth riding units. The only poor journey I had on one wasn't the fault of the unit, it was when GN stoppers were 4 car on a Saturday and the unit was full and standing. I think your post falls into the "I don't like these units so I'll write a subjective post to justify my position" category.

 

[Ianno87]

All completely subjective. On the few occasions I used 387s - a couple of times on GN and when they were on the MML, I found them to be comfortable, smooth riding units. The only poor journey I had on one wasn't the fault of the unit, it was when GN stoppers were 4 car on a Saturday and the unit was full and standing. I think your post falls into the "I don't like these units so I'll write a subjective post to justify my position" category.

For example, it's basically impossible to use a laptop on a 365 (tiny tables and bounces around/wobbles too much), and let's not forget how they turned into roasting sweat-boxes every heatwave.

 

[bramling]

All completely subjective. On the few occasions I used 387s - a couple of times on GN and when they were on the MML, I found them to be comfortable, smooth riding units. The only poor journey I had on one wasn't the fault of the unit, it was when GN stoppers were 4 car on a Saturday and the unit was full and standing. I think your post falls into the "I don't like these units so I'll write a subjective post to justify my position" category.

Subjective to a point, but this doesn't invalidate stakeholder opinions. However saying they're rough riding isn't subjective - they are, which is something they share with the entire Electrostar family, to a greater or lesser extend depending on where you sit of course. This wouldn't be so much of an issue if the seats were softer and more appropriately angled and there weren't things like the fixed armrest to bang into.

For example, it's basically impossible to use a laptop on a 365 (tiny tables and bounces around/wobbles too much), and let's not forget how they turned into roasting sweat-boxes every heatwave.

I don't recognise this view of the 365s. Over 20+ years I've seen plenty of people using laptops on these trains, in both airline and facing seats, so to claim it's "impossible" simply isn't correct. I have occasionally used one and can't claim to have had any issue. You'd certainly be having issues using a laptop on the other 365 replacement, the 700s, unless fortunate enough to be able to secure a seat in first of course.

As for bouncing / wobbling around, can you elaborate? This certainly isn't something I recognise, and this includes their early days when there was still jointed track around. The 365 has an exceptionally smooth ride by any measure, and in the centre section between the doors has probably the smoothest and quietest ride of *any* EMU I've been on, especially 1/3 2/3 door stock.

As for air con, notwithstanding the possibility of retrofitting as was done by Chiltern in their similar 165s, personally I prefer the availability of all-year-round fresh air ventilation over air conditioning for the tiny handful of days where the weather is sufficiently warm (this year in particular it's probably been about 5 days at the most!). Given the current seating in the 387s and 700s, I'd very willingly trade air conditioning for more comfortable seating.

It's worth adding that the 365 is also more suited to commuter journeys than a 387, with a wider aisle but at the same time more seats. Ideal for the peak journeys they were deployed on.

 

[Hadders]

I agree with @bramling on this. Having used the 365s almost daily for as long as I can remember, in my opinion, they are far better in almost every measure than the 387s.

It's such a shame they are off to the scrap yard given the shambolic situation with the 360s on the MML.

 

[Class15]

I know they were only a short term measure, but they could have been kept longer term with Scotland electrification!

 

[Fincra5]

I know they were only a short term measure, but they could have been kept longer term with Scotland electrification!

I'm sure Scotrail would prefer more modern EMU's... Even the Renatus 321s would feel better for the passengers!

 

[Razorblades]

I know they were only a short term measure, but they could have been kept longer term with Scotland electrification!

Because it costs more to lease additional trains. The 365s were a stop-gap to fill a temporary hole in the Scottish fleet; there was no long term commercial justification to retain a small and non-standard fleet once the planned Class 385 rolling stock was available.

 

[JonathanH]

I know they were only a short term measure, but they could have been kept longer term with Scotland electrification!

They didn't need them as they were only used at all because 70 385s were late into service.

The 365s were only used on Edinburgh to Glasgow as a fill in measure and I suspect they only trained a small number of traincrew sufficient to run that service.

The Glasgow suburban network is built around 120m trains which doesn't fit with 80m units.

 

[greyman42]

I'm sure Scotrail would prefer more modern EMU's... Even the Renatus 321s would feel better for the passengers!

As i recall, they were very popular with the passengers.

 

[Fincra5]

As i recall, they were very popular with the passengers.

Well they would have been, a longer train with more space than the DMU's they replaced until the 385s were finally acceptable!

 

[JonathanH]

As i recall, they were very popular with the passengers.

In what sense? How was that measured? Did passenger numbers go up?

Are the 385s not also popular?

 

[bramling]

Well they would have been, a longer train with more space than the DMU's they replaced until the 385s were finally acceptable!

The 385s (and 380s for that matter) have rather austere interiors, so it’s quite possible passengers would find 365s nicer. The only thing the new fleets have is air conditioning, and in all honesty how many days does the Scottish climate *need* air cooling? The 365s have effective heating - indeed too effective at times.

The 365s could have quite happily been employed in Scotland and the 385s never procured. Splitting the fleet probably didn’t help - whilst this happened in 2018 it had been planned for many years before that. If it had been known that all 40 units would be redundant then it’s quite possible they’d have ended up with Northern instead of the 319s, for example.

Of course, if it had been known that Cambridge to Maidstone would never happen, all 40 units could quite happily have remained with GN. This would have been by far the most logical continued deployment, but for constant DFT bungling. As I’ve suggested before, 17x May 18 365 diagrams, 16x KX to Cambridge and 3x Peterborough peak (in lieu of 3x387) = 36 out of 40, an almost perfect utilisation.

 

[greyman42]

The 385s (and 380s for that matter) have rather austere interiors, so it’s quite possible passengers would find 365s nicer. The only thing the new fleets have is air conditioning, and in all honesty how many days does the Scottish climate *need* air cooling? The 365s have effective heating - indeed too effective at times.

And the 385s are not "happy trains"!

 

[JonathanH]

The 385s (and 380s for that matter) have rather austere interiors, so it’s quite possible passengers would find 365s nicer. The only thing the new fleets have is air conditioning, and in all honesty how many days does the Scottish climate *need* air cooling?

385s also have carpet and tables.

 

[bramling]

385s also have carpet and tables.

Yes Scotrail must have worked very hard to include these features and *still* manage to come up with an extremely drab and depressing interior.

In the case of the 380 (and 700/707/717) it has been suggested to be partly a German thing, though other German trains like the 185/450 are okay.

 

[XAM2175]

The 365s could have quite happily been employed in Scotland and the 385s never procured.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have the new 442s

 

[Fincra5]

The 385s (and 380s for that matter) have rather austere interiors, so it’s quite possible passengers would find 365s nicer. The only thing the new fleets have is air conditioning, and in all honesty how many days does the Scottish climate *need* air cooling? The 365s have effective heating - indeed too effective at times.

The 365s could have quite happily been employed in Scotland and the 385s never procured. Splitting the fleet probably didn’t help - whilst this happened in 2018 it had been planned for many years before that. If it had been known that all 40 units would be redundant then it’s quite possible they’d have ended up with Northern instead of the 319s, for example.

Of course, if it had been known that Cambridge to Maidstone would never happen, all 40 units could quite happily have remained with GN. This would have been by far the most logical continued deployment, but for constant DFT bungling.

Well the 385s were specified and nearly all produced before a 365 turn a wheel In Scotland... so when in 2015, when the contract was signed, would have Scotrail been able to say "We'll have 365s..."

I've said before, I've always had a soft spot for Networkers but they're no longer modern trains... the equipment is older, uncommon and so on. Can't blame a TOC for wanting more standard (and new) equipment... especially when the cost of getting new was sometimes cheaper than leasing something old!

@XAM2175 is right, they're rapidly becoming the next 442!

 

[bramling]

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have the new 442s

The 365 is a much better train than the 442 in a number of ways. With apologies to 442 fans, to be honest I’ve never quite got the fuss about them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 385s (and 380s for that matter) have rather austere interiors, so it’s quite possible passengers would find 365s nicer.

Since their last major refurbishment, the 365s were also somewhat spartan.

The 365 is a much better train than the 442 in a number of ways. With apologies to 442 fans, to be honest I’ve never quite got the fuss about them.

Tbh I feel the same about the 365s. I've nothing against them, and they were great when new compared to the 317s they replaced with their weird rattly metal vents.
I think with the 442s it comes down to a number of things: the last hurrah of compartment stock; the provision of a near-Intercity type train on the SWML; being what the regular mk3s should have been WRT power doors... I do agree that it will seem baffling if you don't see it yourself, though.

 

[ashkeba]

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have the new 442s

Nobody suggested loco-hauling 365s, did they?

 

[Fincra5]

Nobody suggested loco-hauling 365s, did they?

Dunno why not, loads have been Loco-Hauled recently...

 

[t_star2001uk]

Nobody suggested loco-hauling 365s, did they?

Can you demotor them and use them as push-pull stock for the likes of DRS?

Probably suggested in jest.....

 

[Watershed]

What an ignominious end to such a good fleet - particularly after its last refurbishment. There's a cruel irony in them being sent to the scrapyard well under 30 years after being built, just as they were transferred to DfT ownership, whilst much older trains like the 313s still power on.

 

[jon0844]

I suspect the 313s in use down south won't be around for too much longer. It will all begin when the 379s start coming over to GTR...

To keep on topic, it is quite amazing that the 313s outlived the incredibly popular 365s but if TOCs all wanted new trains and won franchises on that basis, there were inevitably going to be loads of unneeded rolling stock - and the lack of air conditioning and things like bodyside cameras probably didn't help the 365s. They never even got CCTV did they? Or were cameras included with the new PIS?

 

[bramling]

I suspect the 313s in use down south won't be around for too much longer. It will all begin when the 379s start coming over to GTR...

To keep on topic, it is quite amazing that the 313s outlived the incredibly popular 365s but if TOCs all wanted new trains and won franchises on that basis, there were inevitably going to be loads of unneeded rolling stock - and the lack of air conditioning and things like bodyside cameras probably didn't help the 365s. They never even got CCTV did they? Or were cameras included with the new PIS?

No CCTV. I seem to remember reading somewhere that with the fleet being largely peak hours only, it wasn't deemed worthwhile. Likewise Baldock and Peterborough is hardly bandit territory!

I agree DOO was probably a factor, but the real issue was simply that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and with timetables being cut across the board no obvious redeployment. Meanwhile, some disgruntlement locally about the current GN peak timetable and overcrowding...

From what I gather, 313s will probably be gone by the December timetable, though things can change so nothing is certain until it actually happens. I get the feeling there's some wrangling going on over 379 lease charges - not exactly wise sending your alternative for scrap when trying to do a hard deal. There's also the SE 377s, which could be displaced to GTR by service cuts and reactivating stored 465s. It would certainly be ironic to see Networkers older and generally inferior to 365s returning elsewhere!

 

[ashkeba]

To keep on topic, it is quite amazing that the 313s outlived the incredibly popular 365s but if TOCs all wanted new trains and won franchises on that basis, there were inevitably going to be loads of unneeded rolling stock -

TOCs did not all want new trains evidently because the 365s were the last new trains on their routes and were replaced by secondhand 387s and 700s not new.

 

[jon0844]

387s are newer and have the features that are required, like bodyside cameras to do away with platform dispatch. Had the 365s been upgraded, maybe they'd continue in service.

I also think that the lack of air conditioning is another factor. I know a lot of people love the open window blowing people behind to pieces, but most people didn't - and on a very hot day, trains sat in sidings until put into peak service were horrible. Maybe not everyone experienced that if they travelled on a train that had been moving for a while, but I recall the hell at King's Cross only too well.

I am extremely sad to see them go. Lovely, fast, comfortable trains (bar the ventilation aspect) but clearly someone figured it was cheaper to ditch them for something new (or newer) that ticked all the boxes.