Class 365 - What if they werent scrapped?

[JonathanH]

I don’t see this idea kicking off, especially as it sounds like the 165s have quite little life left in them.

They (and 365s / 465s) have been described as structurally sound for ten more years of service.

There seems to be a quite weird desire to bring 365s back to service and rid the network of 165s on this forum when structurally they are very similar / have the same seat frames etc. (I appreciate they are spaced differently in the 365s but they are the same seats - I also appreciate that 365s are electric units - both ticks in their direction.)

 

[D365]

165's and 365's are identical apart from coach length and method of propulsion, so a good match.

Which means they're not [mechanically] identical in the slightest. Just don't see it being economical to marry up 25/30 year old DMU and EMU coaches.

 

[Aictos]

The post I was commenting on stated (my bold):

NR are not electrifying Leeds to York. They are doing Colton Junction to Church Fenton. There will still be a significant gap from Church Fenton to Neville Hill that means it's not possible to run an EMU service from Leeds-York-Edinburgh.

Yes but you mentioned Edinburgh and the way you put your post which to a non regular user of the ECML might think that the ECML was not electrified.

What you should have said is there is the small matter of infill electrification between LEEDS and YORK, no need to mention north of York at all.

 

[Energy]

Which means they're not [mechanically] identical in the slightest. Just don't see it being economical to marry up 25/30 year old DMU and EMU coaches.

Its using trailer coaches so it isn't too bad but the 165/166s will need an engine upgrade if they are going to have trailers added as they are already sluggish.

 

[D365]

Its using trailer coaches so it isn't too bad but the 165/166s will need an engine upgrade if they are going to have trailers added as they are already sluggish.

I'm not familiar with Networkers on a mechanical basis, but safety critical systems like braking would be my concern. That would take a lot of time and money to make them compatible.

 

[Meerkat]

Can you demotor them and use them as push-pull stock for the likes of DRS?

 

[Energy]

Can you demotor them and use them as push-pull stock for the likes of DRS?

In theory yes, but why would you?

 

[JonathanH]

Can you demotor them and use them as push-pull stock for the likes of DRS?

What use do DRS have for any rolling stock?

 

[Aictos]

Are the Class 365s the new Class 442s in which the forum must have one in passenger service regardless?

 

[Meerkat]

In theory yes, but why would you?

Charter and whatever else those sort of folk hire trains out for!

 

[Ianno87]

Well, the rumour doesn't seem to be dying...

https://twitter.com/satupfront/status/1427908825483550720?s=20

Rumours going round at work we will be seeing 365 units soon .... let's see

 

[507020]

Surely they can manage to do some electrification somewhere to withdraw a few DMUs (or free them up to strengthen other services to 4 cars) and put the 365s to use, to avoid spending even more money either scrapping them or ordering new EMUs.

 

[D365]

Surely they can manage to do some electrification somewhere to withdraw a few DMUs (or free them up to strengthen other services to 4 cars) and put the 365s to use, to avoid spending even more money either scrapping them or ordering new EMUs.

Who is ”they”?

It’s Eversholt’s problem to rehome the 365s, now that they have returned to private ownership.

 

[507020]

Who is ”they”?

It’s Eversholt’s problem to rehome the 365s, now that they have returned to private ownership.

While “they” in the context of electrification is Network Rail for the rest of their continued existence, I am aware that they can’t just “do” it. It requires a joined up approach from the whole industry, including the government and Grant Shapps, but it is not his problem since the 365s are in private hands. The source of this wastage is therefore fragmentation.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Surely they can manage to do some electrification somewhere to withdraw a few DMUs (or free them up to strengthen other services to 4 cars) and put the 365s to use, to avoid spending even more money either scrapping them or ordering new EMUs.

Here's an idea (ok this might be fantasy, but I really think this line needs to be electrified):

Electrify Plymouth to Bristol via Exeter, Taunton (ending at the currently electrified GWML stretch near Bristol Parkway) and use the 365s on GWR Plymouth to Cardiff Central services.

See it, Say it, Sorted.

Ok, jokes aside, I agree. The DfT and Network Rail need to back on track with electrification again, and I think that the Plymouth to Bristol is one of the many busy railway lines that needs to be prioritised for electrifications imo. (Electrification of this line, alongside with Taunton to Newbury, would finally allow electric trains in Devon).

 

[507020]

Here's an idea (ok this might be fantasy, but I really think this line needs to be electrified):

Electrify Plymouth to Bristol via Exeter, Taunton (ending at the currently electrified GWML stretch near Bristol Parkway) and use the 365s on GWR Plymouth to Cardiff Central services.

See it, Say it, Sorted.

Ok, jokes aside, I agree. The DfT and Network Rail need to back on track with electrification again, and I think that the Plymouth to Bristol is one of the many busy railway lines that needs to be prioritised for electrifications imo. (Electrification of this line, alongside with Taunton to Newbury, would finally allow electric trains in Devon).

I can see many problems with your plan. Unfortunately you appear to have completely overlooked the possibility of electrifying from Bristol to Bath or Bromsgrove.

But as you said, jokes aside, I hope you would also electrify the loop to Western-super-Mare and the branch to Torquay and Paignton, with DMUs cascaded to Okehampton and Portishead. Electrifying all the way from Bromsgrove to Plymouth would strengthen the case for bi-modes for CrossCountry and doing Reading - Taunton via Newbury and Bristol via Bath for potentially removing engines from some GWR bi-modes. Perhaps the GWR bi-modes could cascade to CrossCountry and GWR could get new pure electric 807s built to a higher spec, like the Avanti ones. Having a spare fleet of EMUs lying around would be central to these plans.

The only real problem might be that the wires at Dawlish might suffer corrosion issues or fall into the sea. Exeter - Plymouth electrification might be better provided via Okehampton, with bi-modes running on Diesel over the Dawlish sea wall.

 

[JKF]

Electrification of this line, alongside with Taunton to Newbury, would finally allow electric trains in Devon.

I think there are some technical challenges electrifying the route, not least along the coastal section with highly corrosive saltwater flying about in stormy weather.

 

[D365]

I think there are some technical challenges electrifying the route, not least along the coastal section with highly corrosive saltwater flying about in stormy weather.

Not an issue in the slightest. It’s been done in Scotland.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I can see many problems with your plan. Unfortunately you appear to have completely overlooked the possibility of electrifying from Bristol to Bath or Bromsgrove.

But as you said, jokes aside, I hope you would also electrify the loop to Western-super-Mare and the branch to Torquay and Paignton, with DMUs cascaded to Okehampton and Portishead. Electrifying all the way from Bromsgrove to Plymouth would strengthen the case for bi-modes for CrossCountry and doing Reading - Taunton via Newbury and Bristol via Bath for potentially removing engines from some GWR bi-modes. Perhaps the GWR bi-modes could cascade to CrossCountry and GWR could get new pure electric 807s built to a higher spec, like the Avanti ones. Having a spare fleet of EMUs lying around would be central to these plans.

The only real problem might be that the wires at Dawlish might suffer corrosion issues or fall into the sea. Exeter - Plymouth electrification might be better provided via Okehampton, with bi-modes running on Diesel over the Dawlish sea wall.

Or using third rail, to avoid having to build overhead piles.

Also, let me tell you this - I have a plan to 100% electrify the UK railway system, like what Switzerland has done, and what India is currently doing.

So yes, I would like to see the whole starting from Penzance, up to Birmingham, electrified. I'd also electrify the branches such as to Severn Beach, Western-super-Mare, Torquay and Paignton.

 

[bramling]

Here's an idea (ok this might be fantasy, but I really think this line needs to be electrified):

Electrify Plymouth to Bristol via Exeter, Taunton (ending at the currently electrified GWML stretch near Bristol Parkway) and use the 365s on GWR Plymouth to Cardiff Central services.

See it, Say it, Sorted.

Ok, jokes aside, I agree. The DfT and Network Rail need to back on track with electrification again, and I think that the Plymouth to Bristol is one of the many busy railway lines that needs to be prioritised for electrifications imo. (Electrification of this line, alongside with Taunton to Newbury, would finally allow electric trains in Devon).

The trouble with the notion of electrifying something or other is that the lead time for any new scheme will be a few years. Some of the 365s have already been stored for over 3 years now, and whilst there’s supposed to have been an element of “warm store”, sadly in practice they will already have deteriorated somewhat.

They need to find use pretty much *now* if they are to have a future. Unfortunately aside from returning to GN I can’t think of anything obvious. Northern would have been a contender, but they are now keeping the 323s, so we’d simply have been reading a new thread on what to do with the 323s!

In reality some of the new fleets shouldn’t have been procured.

I’d still put the 365s back on GN and do a cascade to bin the 313/455 fleets on Southern. It will be interesting to see how GTR plan to get of these, if indeed they do.

 

[Aictos]

Not an issue in the slightest. It’s been done in Scotland.

Saltcoats I believe yes? As it's been done in a similar environment to Dawlish, I can't see a problem there, it just takes some joined up thinking.....

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The trouble with the notion of electrifying something or other is that the lead time for any new scheme will be a few years. Some of the 365s have already been stored for over 3 years now, and whilst there’s supposed to have been an element of “warm store”, sadly in practice they will already have deteriorated somewhat.

They need to find use pretty much *now* if they are to have a future. Unfortunately aside from returning to GN I can’t think of anything obvious. Northern would have been a contender, but they are now keeping the 323s, so we’d simply have been reading a new thread on what to do with the 323s!

In reality some of the new fleets shouldn’t have been procured.

I’d still put the 365s back on GN and do a cascade to bin the 313/455 fleets on Southern. It will be interesting to see how GTR plan to get of these, if indeed they do.

In fact shouldn't be the following: 29 365s taking over the 387/1 duties, where they would be sent, alongside the 387/2, to replace all the 313s, plus almost all of the 455s.

There was no need to withdraw the 365s when you have much older trains like the 313s and 455s still in service.

 

[bramling]

In fact shouldn't be the following: 29 365s taking over the 387/1 duties, where they would be sent, alongside the 387/2, to replace all the 313s, plus almost all of the 455s.

There was no need to withdraw the 365s when you have much older trains like the 313s and 455s still in service.

Agreed in principle, however 29x 365 to replace 29x387 doesn’t quite work, as on top of that you have the 19x former GN 365s, which adds up to well over 40, leaving GN short. You also run into issues such as SDO, DOO equipment.

However giving GN a 379 + 365 fleet would work well, and combined with some other shuffles (eg stored Networkers back to SE to release 377/5s) could channel enough Electrostars to Southern to see off the 313/455 fleets without requiring new build. If demand picks up I’d lay a fiver on some variation of this being what eventually happens, if the 365s don’t get scrapped in the meantime. That will depend on what Eversholt are prepared to do, in particular whether offering them on a dirt cheap lease is preferable to just ridding themselves of them.

 

[Energy]

Agreed in principle, however 29x 365 to replace 29x387 doesn’t quite work, as on top of that you have the 19x former GN 365s, which adds up to well over 40, leaving GN short. You also run into issues such as SDO, DOO equipment.

However giving GN a 379 + 365 fleet would work well, and combined with some other shuffles (eg stored Networkers back to SE to release 377/5s) could channel enough Electrostars to Southern to see off the 313/455 fleets without requiring new build. If demand picks up I’d lay a fiver on some variation of this being what eventually happens, if the 365s don’t get scrapped in the meantime. That will depend on what Eversholt are prepared to do, in particular whether offering them on a dirt cheap lease is preferable to just ridding themselves of them.

Another poster on the forum said not too long ago that they are planning to transfer the 379s to Great Northern and then transfer those 387s to Southern to replace the 313s and 455s (though this will probably require the 377s from SE to transfer to Southern as well). As there isn't much evidence it is still an idea on this forum (and has been for a while) but is a pretty sensible idea.

 

[backontrack]

Send them to Scotland. There are still lines like Maryhill route that are pending electrification.

 

[Aictos]

Another poster on the forum said not too long ago that they are planning to transfer the 379s to Great Northern and then transfer those 387s to Southern to replace the 313s and 455s (though this will probably require the 377s from SE to transfer to Southern as well). As there isn't much evidence it is still an idea on this forum (and has been for a while) but is a pretty sensible idea.

That was pure speculation though and nothing concrete regarding the Class 379s.

 

[Energy]

The only real problem might be that the wires at Dawlish might suffer corrosion issues or fall into the sea. Exeter - Plymouth electrification might be better provided via Okehampton, with bi-modes running on Diesel over the Dawlish sea wall.

Dawlish isn't a problem, OHLE is fine at Saltcoats (

). Bi modes are worse as regenerative breaking means they need roof mounted resistors to dissipate the returned electricity as heat which has caused problems on the voyagers. The wire is unlikely to fall in the sea, I've seen the BT overhead wires by the sea and they have no problems with much less support than OHLE.

Or using third rail, to avoid having to build overhead piles.

New build 3rd rail will not happen apart from in fill. Plus at Dawlish it is not great as water can collect around it.

Also, let me tell you this - I have a plan to 100% electrify the UK railway system, like what Switzerland has done, and what India is currently doing.

So yes, I would like to see the whole starting from Penzance, up to Birmingham, electrified. I'd also electrify the branches such as to Severn Beach, Western-super-Mare, Torquay and Paignton.

You might have a plan but the DfT and NR do not.

Send them to Scotland. There are still lines like Maryhill route that are pending electrification.

A load of 321s just came off lease which would be far more suitable.

 

[Class455]

In fact shouldn't be the following: 29 365s taking over the 387/1 duties, where they would be sent, alongside the 387/2, to replace all the 313s, plus almost all of the 455s.

There was no need to withdraw the 365s when you have much older trains like the 313s and 455s still in service.

365’s are not returning to Great Northern as they no longer have the DOO monitors available along the route.
I’d personally like to see them return to Southeastern. 23 365’s could replace the 377/5’s which then could return to Southern to potentially replace the 313’s and they’d work well with the 465’s and 466’s

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Dawlish isn't a problem, OHLE is fine at Saltcoats (

). Bi modes are worse as regenerative breaking means they need roof mounted resistors to dissipate the returned electricity as heat which has caused problems on the voyagers. The wire is unlikely to fall in the sea, I've seen the BT overhead wires by the sea and they have no problems with much less support than OHLE.

New build 3rd rail will not happen apart from in fill. Plus at Dawlish it is not great as water can collect around it.

You might have a plan but the DfT and NR do not.

A load of 321s just came off lease which would be far more suitable.

Actually, I believe they plan on electrifying on almost the entire UK railway system. The only exceptions are lightly used lines where hydrogen or battery will be used instead.

 

[Ianno87]

365’s are not returning to Great Northern as they no longer have the DOO monitors available along the route.

That is an obvious point as to their supposed use with LNER; can 365 be guard-operated? I can hardly imagine LNER operating them DOO, unless there is some modification for DCO or something.