Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[dingdinger]

I have finally seen something other than 025! 004 working 5Q03 13:00 from Waterloo

 

[spark001uk]

I have finally seen something other than 025! 004 working 5Q03 13:00 from Waterloo

023 has been doing the rounds lately as well.

 

[444045]

023 has been doing the rounds lately as well.

Thanks for your help @spark001uk ,

However U.701025 has already been to Bournemouth Depot for mods unless something else has happened !!!

 

[3973EXL]

Does anyone know which 701 is on 5Q69 13+24 Wimbledon Park to Bournemouth Depot today please ? Going for its mods (118 of them).

Thanks in advance.

701030 reported on se gen.

 

[spark001uk]

Thanks for your help @spark001uk ,

However U.701025 has already been to Bournemouth Depot for mods unless something else has happened !!!

Confirmed it's 701030 gone to Bournemouth today.

 

[Mollman]

Do ASLEF have legal powers to say the trains arent safe or would they have to test that in court?
What happens if the DfT go nuclear? Hypothetically, confident that the public and a court will back the DfT on whether the trains have been modified enough to be safe and looking for a fight, they say "you drive them or you are breaching contract and will get your notice".
Do ASLEF then have to take a test case for wrongful dismissal?

Obviously the chances of that happening are for another thread, the question here is do ASLEF have any power to totally prevent introduction of the 701s other than a strike (and could they legally get the other drivers out on strike or only the metro drivers due to drive the things?)

Well if the gov gets its way then it doesn't matter if the court ruled it was wrongful dismissal, they would just overrule it.

 

[Meerkat]

Well if the gov gets its way then it doesn't matter if the court ruled it was wrongful dismissal, they would just overrule it.

How, or do you mean Parliament could overrule it? Though in this case I don't see how they would frame that particular change to the law and get Parliament to approve it.
A court saying the trains were unsafe would be too politically damaging to risk. The DfT would only go nuclear if they reckoned they had a good enough case that the union was being obstructive (ie similar trains being in current service safely and whatever), or at least a good enough case that the union wouldn't risk the financial cost of testing it.
But we don't know the specifics of the union opinion do we??? It could be perfectly reasonable, or not.

 

[444045]

Confirmed it's 701030 gone to Bournemouth today.

Thanks for the confirmation @3973EXL & @spark001uk .

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

How, or do you mean Parliament could overrule it? Though in this case I don't see how they would frame that particular change to the law and get Parliament to approve it.
A court saying the trains were unsafe would be too politically damaging to risk. The DfT would only go nuclear if they reckoned they had a good enough case that the union was being obstructive (ie similar trains being in current service safely and whatever), or at least a good enough case that the union wouldn't risk the financial cost of testing it.
But we don't know the specifics of the union opinion do we??? It could be perfectly reasonable, or not.

Its Railway Group Standards and TSI that govern whether the train is compliant or not but the ergonomics of the cab do require drivers representatives to be consulted so depends whether they have to abide by the outcome of said consultations or not if everything else is compliant.

 

[a_c_skinner]

but the ergonomics of the cab do require drivers representatives to be consulted

Which seems a fairly obvious precaution. Almost to the point of shooting their fox.

 

[aleandrail]

701508 ready for delivery

 

[Goldfish62]

On another thread it's been mentioned that SWR want to keep its remaining 707s beyond the Spring. I guess this means we're unlikely to see any 701s in service for a long time yet. Will it even be 2022?

 

[Bessie]

I didn't realise they'd started building the 5 car units. Does this mean of the 10 cars all 60 have been built or has Derby got to unit number xxx and then switched to 5 car production? For 10 car units does anyone know how many have been completed.

 

[spark001uk]

That's not the first 5 car to be built, it may be finished but doesn't necessarily mean it'll be coming straight down south. Believe there's one or two stored at Worksop yard already?

 

[Domh245]

The "launch" unit was a 5 car - so you can't read too much into how many have been produced based on the appearance of 508

eg:

The original delivery schedule may give some idea of the relative levels of each as they progressed through delivery & introduction - assuming that they've all been numbered (& finished) incrementally unit 508 should mean around that there are around 45 10 cars 'ready' but I wouldn't want to extrapolate from a ~4.5 year old document!

 

[43096]

View attachment 107468

That table is absolutely damning. The first set is now 27 months late and counting and the final set is already over 12 months late for acceptance.

 

[fgwrich]

That table is absolutely damning. The first set is now 27 months late and counting and the final set is already over 12 months late for acceptance.

27 months late, has been in the south for a year and 6 months (Delivered June 2020), still no sign of entry into service. It's no wonder why there has been talk of SWR & Rock Rail's lawyers becoming involved. There's teething troubles, and there's the 701s.

 

[southern442]

There's teething troubles, and there's the 701s.

They haven't even been given a chance to HAVE teething troubles yet!

 

[fgwrich]

They haven't even been given a chance to HAVE teething troubles yet!

True!

I rather bet that First Group May well be regretting dumping Siemens by now, a follow on order for more 707s might have been preferable.

 

[43096]

27 months late, has been in the south for a year and 6 months (Delivered June 2020), still no sign of entry into service. It's no wonder why there has been talk of SWR & Rock Rail's lawyers becoming involved. There's teething troubles, and there's the 701s.

It's almost a mirror of the Bombardier Talent 3 units that ÖBB ordered in 2016 for use in Voralberg that were scheduled for delivery in summer 2019. They are still not in service and ÖBB have now cancelled the contract and ordered more Desiro ML units from Siemens instead. Will DfT and SWR grow a pair and cancel the order?

 

[Wokingham]

Any danger of them actually being dumped?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Any danger of them actually being dumped?

Underneath they are bog standard Aventra same mechanical and electricals as 710/720's I know they foolishly has to specify a different cab design but it contains the same kit as the others. Others have spoken of software being different and there is of course extra functionality for ABDO and if that is causing issues they should go down cross rail route and get the trains working first then upgrade the software in due course.

 

[FOCTOC]

27 months late, has been in the south for a year and 6 months (Delivered June 2020), still no sign of entry into service. It's no wonder why there has been talk of SWR & Rock Rail's lawyers becoming involved. There's teething troubles, and there's the 701s.

And today's move south was cancelled again, but 701034 has gone back to Derby.

 

[Wyrleybart]

There's teething troubles, and there's the 701s.

I think you meant to say there's teething troubles and there's Bombardier
An utter shambles of a company when you start looking at the wider picture. The plane which became the Airbus A220 is a clear example, but how did Bombardier think they were going to build deliver and commission around 2800 vehicles to five different TOCs ? Basically most to a similar design if you ignore the bodyshell shape.

 

[fgwrich]

I think you meant to say there's teething troubles and there's Bombardier
An utter shambles of a company when you start looking at the wider picture. The plane which became the Airbus A220 is a clear example, but how did Bombardier think they were going to build deliver and commission around 2800 vehicles to five different TOCs ? Basically most to a similar design if you ignore the bodyshell shape.

It surprises me that they still manage to pick up orders in the UK - apart from possibly the 387s (pretty easy considering it was a 20 year old design), have the managed to deliver any stock on time in the last decade?
And this is also why I remain sceptical over the HS2 stock contract too. Let’s hope they address the software and door opening issues before they turn a wheel.

As for the issues with the delivery runs - this isn’t the first time GB has had issues with these units upon leaving Derby. Is the QC that lacking, or is it something else?

 

[Goldfish62]

Underneath they are bog standard Aventra same mechanical and electricals as 710/720's I know they foolishly has to specify a different cab design but it contains the same kit as the others. Others have spoken of software being different and there is of course extra functionality for ABDO and if that is causing issues they should go down cross rail route and get the trains working first then upgrade the software in due course.

Nothing foolish about specifying a different cab. It's been done with multiple rolling stock without issues. It would appear to be the incompetence of Bombardier that's the issue.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Nothing foolish about specifying a different cab. It's been done with multiple rolling stock without issues. It would appear to be the incompetence of Bombardier that's the issue.

Personally one cab design approved by ASLEF for a long production run would have avoided this issue on non gangwayed designs though although im sure the core problem here is the pushback by unions over DOO and the cab is just a proxy for that.

 

[Goldfish62]

Personally one cab design approved by ASLEF for a long production run would have avoided this issue on non gangwayed designs though although im sure the core problem here is the pushback by unions over DOO and the cab is just a proxy for that.

Well yes, if ASLEF were to decide that they were not going to stick to their side of the deal then arguing over the cab of the 701 would be an ideal opportunity.

Pure conjecture of course...

 

[traji00]

701025 has been ‘split in half’ — one part of which is parked at Wimbledon Park TCD. (not sure what the siding is called, but it’s by the Up Main Fast, closest to Earlsfield)

 

[swr444]

701025 has been ‘split in half’ — one part of which is parked at Wimbledon Park TCD. (not sure what the siding is called, but it’s by the Up Main Fast, closest to Earlsfield)

they seem to have done this quite a few times over the past months