Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[spark001uk]

they seem to have done this quite a few times over the past months

Believe this is a training exercise.

 

[Snow1964]

27 months late, has been in the south for a year and 6 months (Delivered June 2020), still no sign of entry into service. It's no wonder why there has been talk of SWR & Rock Rail's lawyers becoming involved. There's teething troubles, and there's the 701s.

The table shows dates of acceptance by franchisee
In other words, when a unit has completed successful trial running, it is not build dates, or delivery date.

Basically all 90 units should have been in service by last December (2020) timetable change, and some should have been in service autumn 2019 (before there were any covid related delays). Should have been third of fleet in service when covid hit.

The lawyers should have been busy 27 months ago, not still thinking about if they should do anything. If lawyers for owners of classes 455, 456, 458, 707 start to demand their stopping and return (or full overhauls to be done when out of hours/miles) then SWR are in real mess

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m led to believe they split a 701 on depot and the electrical head on the coupler fell off which surprises me.

 

[fgwrich]

I’m led to believe they split a 701 on depot and the electrical head on the coupler fell off which surprises me.

Where’s the facepalm emoji when you need it. Alstom are certainly going to have to work hard to turn their reputation around after this (it may be Bombardiers fault, but it’s a reputation inherited) - a lot of people do still remember their reputation at the start of the millennium after the various fiascos with the Junipers.

What’s also somewhat concerning is that they were happily conducting mainline testing with that one!

 

[Mordac]

Where’s the facepalm emoji when you need it. Alstom are certainly going to have to work hard to turn their reputation around after this (it may be Bombardiers fault, but it’s a reputation inherited) - a lot of people do still remember their reputation at the start of the millennium after the various fiascos with the Junipers.

What’s also somewhat concerning is that they were happily conducting mainline testing with that one!

All a prelude to shutting down Derby.

 

[444045]

U.701019 was moved today from Eastleigh Depot to Eastleigh Works for rectification work.

 

[TRAX]

All a prelude to shutting down Derby.

Ooh, can I have a go at your crystal ball too ?

 

[Goldfish62]

All a prelude to shutting down Derby.

Which will be interesting considering that the HS2 rolling stock contract has been awarded on the basis of part-manufacture at Derby.

 

[37424]

The table shows dates of acceptance by franchisee
In other words, when a unit has completed successful trial running, it is not build dates, or delivery date.

Basically all 90 units should have been in service by last December (2020) timetable change, and some should have been in service autumn 2019 (before there were any covid related delays). Should have been third of fleet in service when covid hit.

The lawyers should have been busy 27 months ago, not still thinking about if they should do anything. If lawyers for owners of classes 455, 456, 458, 707 start to demand their stopping and return (or full overhauls to be done when out of hours/miles) then SWR are in real mess

Most manufacturers seem to have issues with new rolling stock, of late, then of course there was the small matter of the pandemic to contend with. I'm sure the owners of the 455's and 456's are more than happy to get extra usage out of them before they get binned.

 

[ABB125]

I haven't been following this thread, so could someone explain to me what the main problems are? Apparently the windscreen wiper is in the wrong place (amongst other things!).
Thanks

 

[fgwrich]

I haven't been following this thread, so could someone explain to me what the main problems are? Apparently the windscreen wiper is in the wrong place (amongst other things!).
Thanks

Where do we begin?

In short; Software issues, Build Quality issues, Safety related issues like the doors opening at speed during the testing and not tripping the interlock, the cab issues (Aslef related post re-design) to name a few.

The QC issue again highlighted after the post commenting that the electrical coupler box reportedly fell off after 10 ten car was split for training purposes the other day. The fact they are going to both Eastleigh Works and Alstom Widnes for more modifications isn’t a good sign. Also noted from the Portsmouth line was a stack of brand new air con units to replace those fitted to units visiting Eastleigh works this summer / autumn.

 

[Goldfish62]

Where do we begin?

In short; Software issues, Build Quality issues, Safety related issues like the doors opening at speed during the testing and not tripping the interlock, the cab issues (Aslef related post re-design) to name a few.

The QC issue again highlighted after the post commenting that the electrical coupler box reportedly fell off after 10 ten car was split for training purposes the other day. The fact they are going to both Eastleigh Works and Alstom Widnes for more modifications isn’t a good sign. Also noted from the Portsmouth line was a stack of brand new air con units to replace those fitted to units visiting Eastleigh works this summer / autumn.

Cab issues aside I just cannot understand why there are so many quality issues. The production line has been shared with the 710s and 720s and while I understand that they both have too many niggling problems they are at least in service and in the case of some of the 710s starting to build up some fairly respectable reliability stats.

 

[hwl]

Cab issues aside I just cannot understand why there are so many quality issues. The production line has been shared with the 710s and 720s and while I understand that they both have too many niggling problems they are at least in service and in the case of some of the 710s starting to build up some fairly respectable reliability stats.

They threw quality control out the window to enable social distancing and keep production going in 2020. The Derby production technique based on quick assembly of the body shell from pre-assembled roof, floor, sides and ends with huck bolts which means the production (line) velocity is theoretically faster than other plants hence keeping the velocity up and rectifying fault later probably made some sense if the expectation was for Covid not to drag on.
They also built the post assembly testing and rectification shed for the Aventras and it look like the shed was able to identify the problems.

Some of the Derby capacity issues over the last few years have been becasue the S-Stock needed extensive modification at Derby to fit LU's third attempt at CBTC (not needed for the first 2 attempts).

Where do we begin?

In short; Software issues,

Moving software to Bangalore a decade ago wasn't a good move...

Build Quality issues, Safety related issues like the doors opening at speed during the testing and not tripping the interlock, the cab issues (Aslef related post re-design) to name a few.

The QC issue again highlighted after the post commenting that the electrical coupler box reportedly fell off after 10 ten car was split for training purposes the other day.

Quite possibly a Dellner factory issue...

The fact they are going to both Eastleigh Works and Alstom Widnes for more modifications isn’t a good sign.

Eastleigh and Widnes are both doing the cab mods...

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Most manufacturers seem to have issues with new rolling stock, of late, then of course there was the small matter of the pandemic to contend with. I'm sure the owners of the 455's and 456's are more than happy to get extra usage out of them before they get binned.

I bet they are. At this rate. When SWR gets rid of its 455's. Southern will be doing the same with its 455's.

 

[43096]

They threw quality control out the window to enable social distancing and keep production going in 2020. The Derby production technique based on quick assembly of the body shell from pre-assembled roof, floor, sides and ends with huck bolts which means the production (line) velocity is theoretically faster than other plants hence keeping the velocity up and rectifying fault later probably made some sense if the expectation was for Covid not to drag on.

It makes no sense shipping products with faults, it’s a sure way to p*** customers off. If that was Derby’s “strategy” then the place is utterly, utterly screwed.

 

[Mordac]

Which will be interesting considering that the HS2 rolling stock contract has been awarded on the basis of part-manufacture at Derby.

Newton Aycliffe will do it. The French don't own that one so it's marginally safer

 

[AlexNL]

It makes no sense shipping products with faults, it’s a sure way to p*** customers off. If that was Derby’s “strategy” then the place is utterly, utterly screwed.

After Alstom took over Bombardier, and started to look closely at how to integrate the acquired business into their own, they found quite a number of things which needed addressing. In a recent interview with Modern Railways, Alstom's Peter Broadley said:

Peter Broadley discusses the challenges of integrating the Bombardier business into Alstom. Challenges with different cultures, systems and T&Cs and dealing with the challenges of the Aventra programme #4thFriday
Derby is largest @AlstomUK manufacturing site in world, says Peter Broadley. But not without its problems - Aventra is an amazing train, but complications with software #4thFriday
Peter Broadley explains what Alstom found at Derby on taking over Bombardier. Inventory stacked up around site, part-finished trains parked up at Worksop - needed to assess state of each car which all had a different rectification plan #4thFriday
Alstom's response to bring discipline back - commitment to quality on Aventra programme. Stopped line and fixed problems as they happen. First trains coming off line after takeover had around 1,500 faults per car, now down at about 30 #4thFriday

Source: Modern Railways' Twitter feed

1500 faults per built car is a lot.

 

[Bigfoot]

1500 faults per built car is a lot.

It's an obscene number. I remember walking through a 707 that had tape marking internal cosmetic issues when they were arriving for service, there was probably 30 in a whole 10 car.

This 1500 faults makes me wonder how quickly they will fall apart

 

[Goldfish62]

Newton Aycliffe will do it. The French don't own that one so it's marginally safer

True!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

After Alstom took over Bombardier, and started to look closely at how to integrate the acquired business into their own, they found quite a number of things which needed addressing. In a recent interview with Modern Railways, Alstom's Peter Broadley said:


Source: Modern Railways' Twitter feed

1500 faults per built car is a lot.

Im not even sure 1970's British Leyland could have competed with that level of issues. You would have thought Bombardier with there aviation credentials would have been able to muster a hit team to get the basics right.

 

[AlexNL]

The only explanation I can think of for such a high number of faults per car is that Bombardier were running significantly late with delivery and tried to deliver the cars at breakneck speed in an attempt to meet delivery deadlines.

Delivering a train with faults which have to be rectified prior to acceptance might contractually be better than completely missing the deadline altogether.

 

[43096]

Delivering a train with faults which have to be rectified prior to acceptance might contractually be better than completely missing the deadline altogether.

That’s highly debatable. Shipping products with known defects is a sure way of really, really annoying the customer. It’s likely to lead to the suspension of deliveries, acceptance and payments.

 

[TRAX]

After Alstom took over Bombardier, and started to look closely at how to integrate the acquired business into their own, they found quite a number of things which needed addressing. In a recent interview with Modern Railways, Alstom's Peter Broadley said:


Source: Modern Railways' Twitter feed

1500 faults per built car is a lot.

But people on here will still say Alstom is a problem rather than a solution !

 

[Snow1964]

The only explanation I can think of for such a high number of faults per car is that Bombardier were running significantly late with delivery and tried to deliver the cars at breakneck speed in an attempt to meet delivery deadlines.

Delivering a train with faults which have to be rectified prior to acceptance might contractually be better than completely missing the deadline altogether.

Without knowing the contract, there may be something in this.
I can see 2 possible clauses :
1) rollout of the factory gets a stage payment from leaseCo (Rock Rail), helps cash flow for builder, but incurs costs for leasco
2) There is some sort of bonus or penalty scheme for meeting defined dates.

Does produce an interesting scenario, if the leaseCo has had to pay for substantial part of the train already, and I suspect SWR doesn’t need to pay until they accept the trains. Ultimately it could lead to possibly of huge financial loss or collapse of a smaller leaseCo. But speculation about the financing and impact on finance company would not be for this thread.

 

[DanNCL]

Is it possible that the 701 program could Inevitably become cancelled. I’m not trying to speculate here, but from my point of view this would probably be the resolving solution. After all, the units are not up to standard with no timescale or deadline in sight.

But you have the ageing, clapped out 455’s that are low on miles and 707’s going to SE

Yes, but obviously such a significant event couldn't happen in isolation. There would have to be significant contingency plans involving other rolling stock, eg overhauling the 455s, returning the 707s to SWR and bringing stored Networkers back into service.

I can't imagine that would ever happen. If the 701s never run in passenger service what rolling stock would replace the 455/6/707s?

Exactly. Whilst you could give the 455/6s overhauls/major exams to keep them going for a while longer they would only ever be a stop gap solution at best. Once they really become end of life what rolling stock would replace them if the 701s are abandoned? Even if SWR had kept all 30 707s it wouldn't be anywhere near enough to make up for the loss of the 701s if they were cancelled.

It's entirely possible it could be cancelled and there would be a precedent for it. Earlier this year OBB canceled their order for Talent 3 EMUs, also from Bombardier and inherited by Alstom, and also because the units had been built with no end of build quality and software issues - a near identical situation to the one SWR find themselves in with the 701s now. There gets to a point where it becomes apparent that you've purchased a dead duck - some of the issues reported in this thread, such as up to 1,500 faults per carriage in some cases, doors opening on the move and couplers disassembling themselves is Fyra V250 levels of problems and it's unreasonable to expect anyone to accept that.

On the issue of alternative stock, in the case of OBB they're having to carry out life extension work on older stock in the meantime, whilst awaiting a new order of EMUs from a proven design (ordered within a few months of the Talent 3 order being cancelled) to be delivered from Siemens. The same would happen at SWR if the 701 order were to be cancelled - new units would be ordered from a different manufacuturer, and as much of the existing fleet as possible would be life extended to cover the lead time on a new order. SWR could make do with the 455s, 456s and 458s alone for the Metro network in the medium term - SWT managed it, granted that provided less capacity than the Metro network has now, but it can be done.

 

[ashkeba]

It surprises me that they still manage to pick up orders in the UK - apart from possibly the 387s (pretty easy considering it was a 20 year old design), have the managed to deliver any stock on time in the last decade?

387s were announced as entering service early 2014 but only achieved that in December, so they did not even manage that one.

 

[Wyrleybart]

It is actually possible to keep rolling stock in service provided the structure of the vehicles is sound. Look at what was done to the GWR 150/2s which are essentially the same bodyshells as 455s, perhaps even some of the bogies / doors etc too. What end date does the Rosco have in mind for the class 150s /1 and /2 ? it always used to be said that EMUs didn't suffer the fatigue of rattly old diesels underfloor.

The Aventra programme has been a farce with units being dragged over to Asfordby then to Worksop then back to Derby before delivery. Each of those transits is dead time and is also costly. Perhaps Bombardier should have taken a more serious look at the construction and delivery programme and elected to share out the build ?

 

[Class360/1]

It is actually possible to keep rolling stock in service provided the structure of the vehicles is sound. Look at what was done to the GWR 150/2s which are essentially the same bodyshells as 455s, perhaps even some of the bogies / doors etc too. What end date does the Rosco have in mind for the class 150s /1 and /2 ? it always used to be said that EMUs didn't suffer the fatigue of rattly old diesels underfloor.

The Aventra programme has been a farce with units being dragged over to Asfordby then to Worksop then back to Derby before delivery. Each of those transits is dead time and is also costly. Perhaps Bombardier should have taken a more serious look at the construction and delivery programme and elected to share out the build ?

In all honesty they bit off more they could chew. The had too.much in their order books

 

[FOCTOC]

034 should be heading back to Eastleigh again today, having gone back to Derby for additional work.

 

[spark001uk]

Has now (finally) departed Litchurch and run round at Chad Sdgs, and is now on the move south, dep Derby 1200 (129L)

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03189/2021-12-29/detailed

47749 + 701034