Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[tomuk]

various things keep going wrong!

More things than on the other Aventras?

 

[Bald Rick]

More things than on the other Aventras?

AIUI yes.

 

[Samzino]

I believe the main reason the later stock are getting accepted still is that the correction to the cab layout that earlier units they accepted(but now need structural adjustment) are yet to get the work finished ontop of then retesting and familiarisation before the full sequence of testing occurs.

Software bugs haven't been worked on on those older stock units as a result either but the newer ones being readily accepted have fixed most of the major ones and is just a matter of what SWR is really organising / planning to do to test them now else they'd have rejected the ones they're receiving of recent.

 

[jackot]

An executive puts a case for saving money for outsourcing, the executive gets a bonus for saving money, they then move to another company to suggest the same to get another bonus.

But then issues happen and the outsource deal is cancelled to bring the function back in house, but all the previous good "in house" developers are no longer available as they have moved on.

Yes, just very toxic managerial culture and corporate greed. The railways seem to be no different.

The fact they are allowed out on the infrastructure without any restrictions for test running tells you the basics are there of traction, braking and safety systems which is probably the standard part of the Aventra platform so it would be great to know what the underlying issues are.

Exactly. There can't be a serious fundamental issue with the key systems or safety at this point if they are allowed out. The whole state of this is very confusing.

Yes, there are a fair number of fingers being discretely pointed in that direction. I seem to recall that the earlier Aventras use an older software platform which has been beaten into some semblance of reliable performance, but unsurprisingly Alstom are keeping tight-lipped on the exact state of things.

Software has always been an issue with the Aventras, and I reckon they have only managed to get software that just about functions on the rest of the units. The added complexities of the 701s seem to have pushed the new software beyond its capabilities, which is frankly ridiculous for an experienced company with a dedicated software team. Trains will only get more technologically advanced in the future, and it makes you wonder how they will cope.

 

[Snow1964]

Software has always been an issue with the Aventras, and I reckon they have only managed to get software that just about functions on the rest of the units. The added complexities of the 701s seem to have pushed the new software beyond its capabilities, which is frankly ridiculous for an experienced company with a dedicated software team. Trains will only get more technologically advanced in the future, and it makes you wonder how they will cope.

I am not sure it is true that 701s have lots of added complexity or that new trains can get much more advanced. There are only a finite number of doors to check, motors to control, or sensors for things like checking how full toilet tanks are, or how hot things are etc.

The 701s don't have features like seat reservation displays or catering equipment so in some ways are simpler than some other trains being built.

It is much easier to design software that covers biggest design and then switch off the unused parts, so if it is designed for a 16car train with 3 doors and a toilet per vehicle and 20 motors. Then the administrator just unticks bits not fitted and it should still function. I do not get why they need months (years?) to write parts of the software. Even things like platform detection or automatic door opening exist on other trains, so if the design is scalable then just bringing in other modules.

If the units can be out and about doing test and mileage runs, can't be anything fundamental in them operating, so all you are left with is the bits for the passenger (eg seats, or side windows not see through enough etc)

 

[Energy]

To some extent there has been some reinventing the wheel going on. The basic fact that a 10car Adventra platform train (class 720) is in service, but the 10car 701 doesn't work makes me question why it had to be so different.

The 701s are closer to the 710s which are 5 car DC/AC. They had software problems for a long time as well.

But I tend to think some changes from something that works, were made without thinking very hard. If the cab needed to be that size on a 720 to fit in driver and equipment, how did someone suddenly think a smaller size would work instead on 701s

Who said the size of the standard aventra cab was necessary? Making the cab bigger improves driver comfort and allows a better design for visibility but it can still be possible to have a smaller cab.

 

[Stew27005]

The 701s are closer to the 710s which are 5 car DC/AC. They had software problems for a long time as well.

Who said the size of the standard aventra cab was necessary? Making the cab bigger improves driver comfort and allows a better design for visibility but it can still be possible to have a smaller cab.

Is anyone aware of a list of the storage locations for each unit? If not, i am happy to start one off.

 

[73128]

To some extent there has been some reinventing the wheel going on. The basic fact that a 10car Adventra platform train (class 720) is in service, but the 10car 701 doesn't work makes me question why it had to be so different.

Actually all Anglia (& C2C) 720s are 5 car, not 10. Whether this matters much is another matter.

 

[Bigfoot]

Actually all Anglia (& C2C) 720s are 5 car, not 10. Whether this matters much is another matter.

I think the point here is they run as 2x5 cars when needed which is what essentially the 701 run as. Why does one class work and the other fail so miserably?

 

[Wyrleybart]

I think the point here is they run as 2x5 cars when needed which is what essentially the 701 run as. Why does one class work and the other fail so miserably?

I don't have the answer to that, but AIUI the Anglia 720s were originally going to be a mix of 5 car and 10 car units, but the "Brantham cockup" and tightness of Ilford stabling persuaded GA to amend the order to 5 car units to run as pairs

 

[3973EXL]

50007 701002 56098

Realtime Trains | 5Q68 1054 Worksop Down Yard to Derby Litchurch Lane | 11/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q68 1054 departure from Worksop Down Yard to Derby Litchurch Lane on 11/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

47749 701023 dep 0736

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 0710 Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. | 12/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 0710 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. on 12/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1009 Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf | 12/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1009 departure from Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf on 12/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

50007 701002 56098

Realtime Trains | 5Q68 1054 Worksop Down Yard to Derby Litchurch Lane | 11/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q68 1054 departure from Worksop Down Yard to Derby Litchurch Lane on 11/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Does that mean 701 002 has been taken from storage to modification to full production spec. Was it one of those originally used for testing without all the seats fitted etc.

Are there any other early ones that need bringing upto full current spec?

 

[Stew27005]

Hi everyone, I've had a go at listing the current locations of each 701 based on various information sources available to me. I'm happy to receive any corrections and further information. Also happy to publish periodic updates. I'm based in Eastleigh so can regularly check units on test, at Arlington and at Eastleigh TRSMD Airport Sidings. File is attached.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Hi everyone, I've had a go at listing the current locations of each 701 based on various information sources available to me. I'm happy to receive any corrections and further information. Also happy to publish periodic updates. I'm based in Eastleigh so can regularly check units on test, at Arlington and at Eastleigh TRSMD Airport Sidings. File is attached.

Well done, that's a lot of work. Thanks for that and I think I look forward to the ongoing updates.

As an aside the humour in me has worked out that these 701s are more like LHCS (similar to Mk5s) !. The reason I say this is the 701 fleet after all these years has possibly still done more mileage behind locomotives than as a traditional MU ?.

 

[Goldfish62]

Hi everyone, I've had a go at listing the current locations of each 701 based on various information sources available to me. I'm happy to receive any corrections and further information. Also happy to publish periodic updates. I'm based in Eastleigh so can regularly check units on test, at Arlington and at Eastleigh TRSMD Airport Sidings. File is attached.

Many thanks!

 

[XCTurbostar]

701033 was the test unit on 5Q51 yesterday

 

[Geogregor]

Two shots from Clapham.

One out in the open:

P1480333 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Another in the shed:

P1480335 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Are bookies offering bets on when are those trains going to enter service?

One can only laugh...

 

[Chilternblue]

Many thanks!

Thank you very much, looking forward to further info

 

[Towers]

5Q66 Willesden to Long Marston appeared to be a 701, is this a storage move?

 

[Invincible]

701033 was the test unit on 5Q51 yesterday

Thanks,
Will it be the same unit tomorrow? (for some reason realtimetrains is not showing any unit numbers?)
From the speadsheet presume it went to Eastleigh after the Staines sidings, or is it at Staines or Feltham?

 

[swr444]

5Q66 Willesden to Long Marston appeared to be a 701, is this a storage move?

Yes

 

[LOL The Irony]

Almost 4 years late, 2 manufacturers, still not fully built and yet to turn a wheel in service. At what point do SWR just reject the fleet, or at least send them for rebuilding with standard Aventra or 730 cabs?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Almost 4 years late, 2 manufacturers, still not fully built and yet to turn a wheel in service. At what point do SWR just reject the fleet, or at least send them for rebuilding with standard Aventra or 730 cabs?

Understand your sentiment, but to be fair Alstom bought Bombardier so the 701 is same product albeit with x number of TMS upgrades.
I cannot see how SWR can reject the fleet seeing as they already already accepted some of them.

Truth is the railway industry just never learns lessons when ordering large fleets. The GA 720s could easily not have been ordered as timely, simply because the Renatus fleet is now being parked up, giving Bombardier some breathing space to get all the other Aventra fleets into service.

 

[AlexNL]

I cannot see how SWR can reject the fleet seeing as they already already accepted some of them.

Acceptance doesn't have to be unconditional, there may be conditions and milestones still. Question is whether those have all been met, or whether it's reasonable for Alstom to do so within a given timeframe.

There have been cases in recent history where an operator ended up rejecting and returning trains even after they had carried passengers already: see the Fyra V250 in the Netherlands, or more recently the TALENT 3 trains in Austria.

 

[3973EXL]

47749 701025 dep 0755

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 0709 Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. | 13/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 0709 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. on 13/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1009 Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf | 13/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1009 departure from Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf on 13/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Why are these 701s 4 years late? Crazy to think they are going from storage yard to storage yard. To think up until recently Long Marston was filled with the 196s for West Midland Railways and now the same location is being filled with 701s way out of their comfort zone. Mad world isn't it?

 

[Stew27005]

47749 701025 dep 0755

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 0709 Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. | 13/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 0709 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Willesden S.W.S. on 13/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1009 Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf | 13/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1009 departure from Willesden S.W.S. to Long Marston Gbrf on 13/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks for the info 3973EXL.

 

[Invincible]

Thanks,
Will it be the same unit tomorrow? (for some reason realtimetrains is not showing any unit numbers?)
From the speadsheet presume it went to Eastleigh after the Staines sidings, or is it at Staines or Feltham?

Today's test cancelled due to signalling problems?

 

[_toommm_]

Two shots from Clapham.

One out in the open:

P1480333 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Another in the shed:

P1480335 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Are bookies offering bets on when are those trains going to enter service?

One can only laugh...

Slightly OT, but what’s the meaning behind headlights and taillights on that 458 please?

 

[jackot]

Slightly OT, but what’s the meaning behind headlights and taillights on that 458 please?

I'm presuming you meant 450, and from memory when the key is removed on the desiros the tail lights are automatically put on at the front of the unit (alongside the headlights)