Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Big Jumby 74]

Yes definitely. The SWR statement from April last year is in the dedicated 458 thread.
But also from the current TOC website:

Hm, thanks. Not seen those, interesting. Time will tell I guess.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That’s factually incorrect. 458s have never been intended to work the Portsmouth via Basingstoke services. Out of the 45 444s, the vast majority spend their whole day on Weymouth or Bournemouth service groups. There’s a few services which start and end at Fratton depot formed 10.444 but not many. A Real time trains search of Portsmouth and Southsea or Fratton corroborate this.

Also, no one wants the 701s west of Woking, especially not the RMT!

If you read it properly you’ll notice I said Portsmouth fasts to be replaced by 458s, not via Basingstokes. “Factually incorrect” indeed

 

[amazon1675]

Can anyone create a simple timeline of when some 701s will really need to be in service? I know there will come a point where either existing rolling stock goes off lease,or will not be economical to repair given length of remaining lease. There must be a date rapidly approaching when some 701s really will be required.Has driver training even started yet? Had things gone more smoothly,I imagine most of the built units would already have been clocking up the miles/kms in service.Without Covid cutting demand,this endless delay could have been more costly and a tad embarrassing.Is it correct that drivers are already receiving a pay enhancement for operating the 701s despite the fact none are yet doing so? Something of a saga and a pricey one at that. In addition,will 10 car high-capacity units be ideal in the new world post-Covid and under the glare of DfT financial control?

 

[pompeyfan]

If you read it properly you’ll notice I said Portsmouth fasts to be replaced by 458s, not via Basingstokes. “Factually incorrect” indeed

You put

London Waterloo - Portsmouth via Basingstoke (with 444s, more of which to be released by 458s)

After “reading properly” I think I understand what you were trying to say, but your original post wasn’t exactly clear and did imply (to me at least) that you believed 458s would be working Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You put


After “reading properly” I think I understand what you were trying to say, but your original post wasn’t exactly clear and did imply (to me at least) that you believed 458s would be working Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh services.

No, I am not completely out of touch; I am well aware that the units would be used on the PDL. I'm just saying that I expect that move to release more 444s which could be used on the via Eastleigh route.
The point is, with the introduction of both 701s and 458s, I am struggling to see a use for one-hundred and twenty-seven 450s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The point is, with the introduction of both 701s and 458s, I am struggling to see a use for one-hundred and twenty-seven 450s.

if the 701s were to be used on Alton/Basingstokes as per the above suggestion, that is.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Can anyone create a simple timeline of when some 701s will really need to be in service? I know there will come a point where either existing rolling stock goes off lease,or will not be economical to repair given length of remaining lease. There must be a date rapidly approaching when some 701s really will be required.Has driver training even started yet? Had things gone more smoothly,I imagine most of the built units would already have been clocking up the miles/kms in service.Without Covid cutting demand,this endless delay could have been more costly and a tad embarrassing.Is it correct that drivers are already receiving a pay enhancement for operating the 701s despite the fact none are yet doing so? Something of a saga and a pricey one at that. In addition,will 10 car high-capacity units be ideal in the new world post-Covid and under the glare of DfT financial control?

Unless the 455's have severe body corrosion they can be kept going for some time yet. Short term issue maybe a backlog of units that need a heavy overhaul but given FSWR are dealing with units stopped for sometime would suggest that they don't expect the 701s in traffic anytime soon.

 

[Goldfish62]

The point is, with the introduction of both 701s and 458s, I am struggling to see a use for one-hundred and twenty-seven 450s.

But my original point was that you'd take the 458s out of the equation. They're non-standard and not particularly reliable. Scrap them and stick 2+2 seating for Pompey in 28 x 450 instead.

Unless the 455's have severe body corrosion they can be kept going for some time yet. Short term issue maybe a backlog of units that need a heavy overhaul but given FSWR are dealing with units stopped for sometime would suggest that they don't expect the 701s in traffic anytime soo

I think the point is that even if crew training started next week having six 10 car units in service by August to replace the 707s would be a tall order under any circumstances.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But my original point was that you'd take the 458s out of the equation. They're non-standard and not particularly reliable. Scrap them and stick 2+2 seating for Pompey in 28 x 450 instead.

Right. Well, that's just not going to happen, is it.
What people have done is they have seen what has happened with the Class 442s - a very unusual set of circumstances owing to several unprecedented factors including the height of COVID - and now assume that to mean any new/refurbished fleet orders can just be dropped at the drop of a hat.

Realistically, now that COVID is as good as dead, ninety 701s are not going to be cancelled, and the refurbishment of twenty-eight 458s to replace the mothballed 442s that has already begun is not going to be cancelled.

 

[spark001uk]

...stick 2+2 seating for Pompey in 28 x 450 instead.

Would make sense, and they've done it to some of the 350's already so should be pretty straightforward?

 

[Goldfish62]

Would make sense, and they've done it to some of the 350's already so should be pretty straightforward?

Indeed. This was fundamental to my suggestion for SWR being able to utilise its entire order of 701s, but appeared to lost on some.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Indeed. This was fundamental to my suggestion for SWR being able to utilise its entire order of 701s, but appeared to lost on some.

In my defence, the whole refitted 2+2 Desiros on Portsmouth has been done so very brutally to death in the past that I assumed no one could possibly consider dragging it up again

 

[Bigfoot]

if the 701s were to be used on Alton/Basingstokes as per the above suggestion, that is.

The Alton line users association would not be happy at that idea!

 

[Goldfish62]

The Alton line users association would not be happy at that idea!

It's just another outer suburban line like Reading.

 

[swr444]

It's just another outer suburban line like Reading.

And used to be part of the outer suburban lines as shown on the SWT maps on the 455s

 

[Bigfoot]

It's just another outer suburban line like Reading.

I didn't say it wasn't a good idea.

 

[Goldfish62]

And used to be part of the outer suburban lines as shown on the SWT maps on the 455s

Indeed.

I didn't say it wasn't a good idea.

And I also agree that they won't like it. Neither would the Camberley line users who also seem to think they're a bit special.

 

[spark001uk]

Today's 5Q10:
47739 + 701044. Through Basingstoke 1650 (107L).

 

[WWTownEnth]

These are all the ones that I can find that have made it down south so far…..

701002 delivered to Eastleigh on 10 June 2020; testing under way; returned to Worksop for completion on 10 November 2020

701004 delivered to Wimbledon on 30 June 2020

701005 delivered to Eastleigh on 20 July 2020; testing under way

701006 delivered To Eastleigh on 31 July 2020

701007 delivered to Eastleigh on 14 August 2020

701008 delivered to Eastleigh on 1 September 2020

701011 delivered to Eastleigh on 12 October 2020

701012 delivered to Eastleigh on 18 September 2020

701013 delivered to Eastleigh on 5 November 2020

701014 delivered to Eastleigh on 4 December 2020

701015 delivered to Eastleigh on 16 December 2020

701016 delivered to Eastleigh on 7 January 2021

701017 delivered to Eastleigh on 5 January 2022

701018 delivered to Eastleigh on 13 January 2021

701019 delivered to Eastleigh on 12 August 2021

701022 delivered to Eastleigh on 20 May 2021

701023 delivered to Eastleigh on 29 March 2021

701025 delivered to Eastleigh on 17 March 2021

701028 delivered to Eastleigh on 24 April 2021

701029 delivered to Eastleigh on 18 May 2021

701031 delivered to Eastleigh on 7 May 2021

701032 delivered to Eastleigh on 28 May 2021

701034 delivered to Eastleigh on 29 December 2021

701035 delivered to Wimbledon on 25 October 2021

701037 delivered to Eastleigh on 27 January 2022

701041 delivered to Eastleigh on 11 March 2022

701042 delivered to Eastleigh on 16 March 2022

701043 delivered to Eastleigh on 29 March 2022

701044 delivered to Eastleigh on 8 April 2022


Any ideas what has happened to the following:

701001
701003
701009
701010
701020
701021
701024
701026
701027
701030
701033
701036
701038
701039
701040

 

[Wyrleybart]

Very useful post.
Does anyone have records of which and when, the first batch were moved to and from Widnes ?
AIUI 701001 701018 ish needed the bulkhead between cab and saloon moving, and It is my guess this wasto be undertaken at Widnes.

 

[Pinza48]

These are all the ones that I can find that have made it down south so far…..

701002 delivered to Eastleigh on 10 June 2020; testing under way; returned to Worksop for completion on 10 November 2020

701004 delivered to Wimbledon on 30 June 2020

701005 delivered to Eastleigh on 20 July 2020; testing under way

701006 delivered To Eastleigh on 31 July 2020

701007 delivered to Eastleigh on 14 August 2020

701008 delivered to Eastleigh on 1 September 2020

701011 delivered to Eastleigh on 12 October 2020

701012 delivered to Eastleigh on 18 September 2020

701013 delivered to Eastleigh on 5 November 2020

701014 delivered to Eastleigh on 4 December 2020

701015 delivered to Eastleigh on 16 December 2020

701016 delivered to Eastleigh on 7 January 2021

701017 delivered to Eastleigh on 5 January 2022

701018 delivered to Eastleigh on 13 January 2021

701019 delivered to Eastleigh on 12 August 2021

701022 delivered to Eastleigh on 20 May 2021

701023 delivered to Eastleigh on 29 March 2021

701025 delivered to Eastleigh on 17 March 2021

701028 delivered to Eastleigh on 24 April 2021

701029 delivered to Eastleigh on 18 May 2021

701031 delivered to Eastleigh on 7 May 2021

701032 delivered to Eastleigh on 28 May 2021

701034 delivered to Eastleigh on 29 December 2021

701035 delivered to Wimbledon on 25 October 2021

701037 delivered to Eastleigh on 27 January 2022

701041 delivered to Eastleigh on 11 March 2022

701042 delivered to Eastleigh on 16 March 2022

701043 delivered to Eastleigh on 29 March 2022

701044 delivered to Eastleigh on 8 April 2022


Any ideas what has happened to the following:

701001
701003
701009
701010
701020
701021
701024
701026
701027
701030
701033
701036
701038
701039
701040

I have 701.030 as being delivered to Wimbledon on 29th September 2021.
Of the others I have made a note of and someone else may know more up to date information
Derby
010
024
026
027
031 returned from Eastleigh
033
038

Worksop
001
003
008
009
020
021
036
039
040

 

[southern442]

And I also agree that they won't like it. Neither would the Camberley line users who also seem to think they're a bit special.

Just playing devil's advocate here, would a 701 be that much of a step down from a 450? You'd lose 2+3 for 2+2, but then gain some extra standing room for London-Suribiton-Woking in the peaks (plus does anyone actually use the middle seats?). You'd also lose the seat-back tables, but gain small tables around the group seats, which I think would be quite welcome and probably more practical. So all in all you'd lose a few things but gain things that in my opinion are equally as good. Only issue is 10 car max instead of 12.

 

[py_megapixel]

Only issue is 10 car max instead of 12.

If I recall correctly, Cl.450 cars are 20 metres long while 701 are 24 metres. That gives a total length of 240 metres for both a 12-car 450 and 10-car 701, and of course a 701 formation will have slightly less of the length taken up with unused cabs.

 

[Domh245]

If I recall correctly, Cl.450 cars are 20 metres long while 701 are 24 metres. That gives a total length of 240 metres for both a 12-car 450 and 10-car 701, and of course the a 701 formation will have slightly less of the length taken up with unused cabs.

You recall incorrectly - the 701s are 20m as the SW suburban network is (barely, with a fair bit of ASDO involved) a 200m based railway

 

[py_megapixel]

Sorry, it's the Anglia ones that are 24 metre cars. The SWR ones do indeed seem to be shorter.

 

[spark001uk]

Worksop
001

I'm sure I saw somewhere that unit 001 was meant to have been earmarked to go down to Horsham to carry out testing/training in a SPZ between there and Dorking, once the LO testing there was finished (long time ago now yes, but clearly the 701s got badly delayed obviously). Not sure if it'll still happen, if indeed it was in the first place and not just wibble.!

 

[Snow1964]

Just playing devil's advocate here, would a 701 be that much of a step down from a 450? You'd lose 2+3 for 2+2, but then gain some extra standing room for London-Suribiton-Woking in the peaks (plus does anyone actually use the middle seats?). You'd also lose the seat-back tables, but gain small tables around the group seats, which I think would be quite welcome and probably more practical. So all in all you'd lose a few things but gain things that in my opinion are equally as good. Only issue is 10 car max instead of 12.

I commuted on SWT from 1990s until about 5 years ago, and in my experience all seats get used including middle seats and tip ups. We were very upset when they removed middle seats from the 455s

You might assume commuters from places like Surbiton don’t mind standing, but actually they tend to hunt out any spare seats. You have to bear in mind that that probably had to stand on the platform due to lack of seats, and vast majority of people arriving at Waterloo have generally got another 15-30 minutes of standing on a tube, or travelling on escalators so don’t want to be standing for best part of an hour.

 

[alm37]

I have 701.030 as being delivered to Wimbledon on 29th September 2021.
Of the others I have made a note of and someone else may know more up to date information
Derby
010
024
026
027
031 returned from Eastleigh
033
038

Worksop
001
003
008
009
020
021
036
039
040

026 and 027 were at Worksop yesterday.

 

[randompixel]

Just playing devil's advocate here, would a 701 be that much of a step down from a 450? You'd lose 2+3 for 2+2, but then gain some extra standing room for London-Suribiton-Woking in the peaks (plus does anyone actually use the middle seats?). You'd also lose the seat-back tables, but gain small tables around the group seats, which I think would be quite welcome and probably more practical. So all in all you'd lose a few things but gain things that in my opinion are equally as good. Only issue is 10 car max instead of 12.

I would be quite upset if the new ones didn't have carpet.

 

[Mikey C]

I commuted on SWT from 1990s until about 5 years ago, and in my experience all seats get used including middle seats and tip ups. We were very upset when they removed middle seats from the 455s

You might assume commuters from places like Surbiton don’t mind standing, but actually they tend to hunt out any spare seats. You have to bear in mind that that probably had to stand on the platform due to lack of seats, and vast majority of people arriving at Waterloo have generally got another 15-30 minutes of standing on a tube, or travelling on escalators so don’t want to be standing for best part of an hour.

The middle seats on Southeastern Networkers are regularly used when the train is busy, a lot of people are happy to squeeze in, rather than stand