Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Fazaar1889]

There is agreement for the soft launch with a very limited number of drivers involved, but the full training course has yet to be agreed. I think we will see them in service this side of Christmas but squadron roll out does still seem a little way off.

Finally! Whoever sees them in action first better take the pictures!!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Finally! Whoever sees them in action first better take the pictures!!

Perhaps it may be you

 

[Boski]

There is agreement for the soft launch with a very limited number of drivers involved, but the full training course has yet to be agreed. I think we will see them in service this side of Christmas but squadron roll out does still seem a little way off.

does this mean a method of working has been agreed with drivers and guards unions or is this a matter for abit further down the line?

 

[Goldfish62]

There is agreement for the soft launch with a very limited number of drivers involved, but the full training course has yet to be agreed. I think we will see them in service this side of Christmas but squadron roll out does still seem a little way off.

How can it take so long for an actual training course to be agreed? What is there to be agreed?

 

[Monty]

There is agreement for the soft launch with a very limited number of drivers involved, but the full training course has yet to be agreed. I think we will see them in service this side of Christmas but squadron roll out does still seem a little way off.

Might be the case for drivers but still no actual agreement or consensus for guards. No training course has been put together and that has to include some door operations. I just don't see it happening in the next 25 days.

 

[800001]

Might be the case for drivers but still no actual agreement or consensus for guards. No training course has been put together and that has to include some door operations. I just don't see it happening in the next 25 days.

I think people mean one in service for Christmas 2024

 

[43096]

How can it take so long for an actual training course to be agreed? What is there to be agreed?

Exactly. They’ve had FOUR YEARS extra to get this sorted out. Just reinforces what an utter omnishambles SWR and WorstGroup are.

 

[TEW]

Might be the case for drivers but still no actual agreement or consensus for guards. No training course has been put together and that has to include some door operations. I just don't see it happening in the next 25 days.

There's guards managers and trainers trained though, given only a very limited service is planned it could be run with them if need be.

How can it take so long for an actual training course to be agreed? What is there to be agreed?

It's a fair question. I don't think SWR will be winning any awards for the way they have handled the introduction. Given how long it has taken to get to this point everything should have been ready to go. Everything should have been in place and agreed so that as soon as the units were deemed in a fit state training could have started.

 

[Snow1964]

Might be the case for drivers but still no actual agreement or consensus for guards. No training course has been put together and that has to include some door operations. I just don't see it happening in the next 25 days.

This seems bonkers, there were perfectly good training courses for guards 6 years ago when 707s were introduced.

Should't be hard to do similar for 701s, yes some equipment is in different places, and might learn 3 or 4 variations of door operation (which may or may not get used in service).

Does it really matter if on a 2 day course, show 25 things (or whatever number is), but later agreement means 2 of them don't get used, better than missing one that is subsequently needed.

At least now RMT dispute is finished should be easy to train lots of guards quickly, especially whilst service on some lines is only 50% of what was planned 6 years ago, so ought to be fair bit of spare capacity to allow training, even if staff aren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

The drivers have had 701 simulators available for 3 years, so unless they have been idle for over 1000 days, a chunk of driver training should also have been done

 

[norbitonflyer]

This seems bonkers, there were perfectly good training courses for guards 6 years ago when 701s were introduced.

I take it you mean 707s ?

 

[pompeyfan]

There’s so much conflicting information going around regarding this fleet. I don’t think anyone is maliciously making up rumours, but not everyone can be right and potentially people are repeating out of date information or rumours as fact. I don’t know what to suggest regarding how to separate fact from fiction though. My input was from a reputable source but then everyone thinks that. Short of name dropping where people are getting their Gen there’s no way to quantify people’s posts (including mine!)

 

[Goldfish62]

I had it confirmed just yesterday by a guard I know that train crew at Staines are currently being trained. Right now.

There is no reason why he would lie to me.

 

[wickham]

If the training course is not yet finalised but a "soft launch" is still proposed to take place manned by Drivers and Guards Standards Managers there is nothing to stop this happening working to a set of "Special Instructions", which may or may not be the system ultimately used. This could only be for the purpose of a "one off launch" though, it could not continue every day or I am sure the unions would have something to say about it !

 

[pompeyfan]

I had it confirmed just yesterday by a guard I know that train crew at Staines are currently being trained. Right now.

There is no reason why he would lie to me.

I’m not saying they are, but how can there be no recognised training package as quoted by one person, but guards are being trained.

Regarding 701s being driven by driver managers, that wouldn’t be permitted by ASLEF unless there was an emergency or there was a competent “normal” driver or DI on the cushions. A driver grade DI would however be permitted to take the train from my understanding.

 

[Goldfish62]

Judging by the way this thread is going even when the 701s enter service there will be those denying they've entered service.

 

[Waterlemon]

I’m not saying they are, but how can there be no recognised training package as quoted by one person, but guards are being trained.

Regarding 701s being driven by driver managers, that wouldn’t be permitted by ASLEF unless there was an emergency or there was a competent “normal” driver or DI on the cushions. A driver grade DI would however be permitted to take the train from my understanding.

Its been done before in post strike startup but they grumbled about it. Not sure it would go down well if they were used to run a daily service.

 

[swr444]

Just received an email from RMT saying that no RMT guard will work a soft launch as they have not agreed a Method of working…

 

[traji00]

Just received an email from RMT saying that no RMT guard will work a soft launch as they have not agreed a Method of working…

For the benefit of others:

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY

www.rmt.org.uk

A report from our South Western Railway Lead Officer has been received regarding the company’s proposals on the 701 principles for Guards.

This matter has been considered by the Union’s National Executive Committee who have reviewed the principles for Guards and Rail Operators and have instructed me to write to the company to reject the proposals as they do not match.

Therefore, I have advised SWR management that the RMT Union formally rejects these principles in their current form.

There are several key areas which need amending before they are acceptable to this Union. I have asked the company to arrange an urgent meeting with the Lead Officer and the Guards and Retail Company Councils to discuss this matter further.

As there is currently no agreement between the Union and the company, I have asked that any new training or soft launch is suspended immediately until an agreement has been reached with the RMT union.

I trust this keeps you advised, and I will write to members following any further updates on this matter.


Yours sincerely

Michael Lynch

General Secretary

 

[Boski]

Just received an email from RMT saying that no RMT guard will work a soft launch as they have not agreed a Method of working…

What is their to actually sort out here?

 

[Waterlemon]

Goodbye December soft launch

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Deliberately asking to suspend a soft launch of the very late train patrons have been waiting four and a half years for, when it finally gets the all clear to start running, is really quite something.

 

[pompeyfan]

For the benefit of others:

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY

www.rmt.org.uk

This doesn’t actually identify where the problems lie.

As far as I can tell the method of work on 701s will be exactly the same as the GA Flirts, so to reject it seems… odd

 

[43096]

Deliberately asking to suspend a soft launch of the very late train patrons have been waiting four and a half years for, when it finally gets the all clear to start running, is really quite something.

And trains that taxpayers are paying for.

 

[Monty]

Haha called it.

 

[Snow1964]

For the benefit of others:

As there is currently no agreement between the Union and the company

Can someone tell me how they operate other classes of trains, if there is no agreement.

Why would you have class specific agreements (and isn't that blatant discrimination), if it's painted red can operate it, if it's grey you can't is like saying if person is white its ok, but if dark not ok.

 

[pompeyfan]

Can someone tell me how they operate other classes of trains, if there is no agreement.

Why would you have class specific agreements (and isn't that blatant discrimination), if it's painted red can operate it, if it's grey you can't is like saying if person is white its ok, but if dark not ok.

From what I remember, back in 2019 ASLEF signed an agreement to say they accepted DCO (driver open & close) as a method of operation but there would always be a guard on board each train in passenger service. In 2021 RMT signed a deal to say they accepted the default method going forward was driver open and close on all stock that could accommodate that, including but not limited to retrofitting existing stock.

701s are expected to be driver open and close, but there will be circumstances where the guard would be expected to dispatch the train. I’m not sure exactly what the problem is this time, but the unions have already signed on the dotted lines, so RMT must think they’ve got enough of a case to think SWR have broken the contract.

 

[12LDA28C]

Why would you have class specific agreements (and isn't that blatant discrimination), if it's painted red can operate it, if it's grey you can't is like saying if person is white its ok, but if dark not ok.

Different types of train have different characteristics which might mean a different method of operation is required and Class-specific procedures will apply. This is nothing new and has been happening for decades. It's certainly not specific to the 701s or SWR.

 

[TEW]

This doesn’t actually identify where the problems lie.

As far as I can tell the method of work on 701s will be exactly the same as the GA Flirts, so to reject it seems… odd

The second paragraph is key; SWR are proposing that different method of operations will be used to platform staff and to guards, clearly they can't both be correct.

 

[pompeyfan]

The second paragraph is key; SWR are proposing that different method of operations will be used to platform staff and to guards, clearly they can't both be correct.

From what I’ve been told it was pretty clear cut, DCO unless required operationally, in which case the guard would inform station staff they were dispatching and may require assistance (Waterloo and Reading excepted).

I’m sure everything will eventually become clear and I could be completely wrong with what I’ve been posting.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So we wait 4 1/2 years for these trains and no-one has yet hammered out how they will be used....

Couldn't make it up.