Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

[trebor79]

I have to say that it's certainly a step change versus what has come before it and the old stock that it has replaced, although I would say there is not quite the same feeling of a difference in standard from first class to second class like there was on the older stock. I like them for what they do and certainly enjoy traveling on them.

I know what you mean about there not being much change in "ambience"between standard and first compared to the Mk3 stock. Some wood effect panelling and a different colour scheme to soften it up would make a difference.
But really I'm nit picking. They are much better than what went before. It is at least possible to work on a laptop comfortably. This was impossible on the Mk3 stock due to the seats being permanently in the fully reclined position.
Overall the 745s offer a much more comfortable and pleasant journey than what they replaced.

I do miss the distinctive sound of a slam door though.

 

[ashkeba]

What has the distance from Stansted to London got to do with it? It is 150 miles from Stansted to Norwich via Liverpool Street. That is a long way to get to their home depot if there is a problem. They are maintained by Stadler so can't receive attention at Ilford.

Because they could just as easily break in London and need rescue. If they break on the 30 miles to Stansted, it is not much different to breaking in London in terms of rescue distance. I do not see why this is so confusing to some. I suspect some just don't want West Anglia to have any intercity-level trains again.

 

[dk1]

Because they could just as easily break in London and need rescue. If they break on the 30 miles to Stansted, it is not much different to breaking in London in terms of rescue distance. I do not see why this is so confusing to some. I suspect some just don't want West Anglia to have any intercity-level trains again.

But there’s more chance of getting around them &/or them being rescued on the GEML. Keeping almost all trains of the same class on the WAML makes perfect sense. It will be operationally far more convenient.

 

[F Great Eastern]

But there’s more chance of getting around them &/or them being rescued on the GEML. Keeping almost all trains of the same class on the WAML make perfect sense.

Exactly

Also the fact that the whole show now has less bid and finance people calling the shots and more operational people having a say has meant we're starting to see common sense we didn't a couple of years ago.

 

[dk1]

Exactly

Also the fact that the whole show now has less bid and finance people calling the shots and more operational people having a say has meant we're starting to see common sense we didn't a couple of years ago.

It was like nobody dared admit mistake & what a ridiculous plan the whole thing was. Those on the ground saw it coming from day one.

 

[306024]

It was like nobody dared admit mistake & what a ridiculous plan the whole thing was. Those on the ground saw it coming from day one.

Those in the planning office saw it coming from day one too but were bound by what was in the bid to start with. There is no doubt Covid has changed commuter number predictions which makes it easier to put 745/1s on the GEML in the peak, so hopefully common sense is starting to prevail.

 

[dk1]

Those in the planning office saw it coming from day one too but were bound by what was in the bid to start with. There is no doubt Covid has changed commuter number predictions which makes it easier to put 745/1s on the GEML in the peak, so hopefully common sense is starting to prevail.

You have to laugh

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

Well okay then, look at some other TOCs and the distance their trains run from home depots, 150 miles is hardly the ends of the earth. If the 745 can run all the way to Liv St, what's an extra 30 miles on top? Honestly I don't know why some people seem so determined to make out like Stansted Airport is on the other side of the country. The zig zagging of units from GE to WA by swapping over at London seems to be working okay as far as I can tell. Please enlighten me as to how the current situation is so awful?

 

[trebor79]

Well okay then, look at some other TOCs and the distance their trains run from home depots, 150 miles is hardly the ends of the earth. If the 745 can run all the way to Liv St, what's an extra 30 miles on top? Honestly I don't know why some people seem so determined to make out like Stansted Airport is on the other side of the country. The zig zagging of units from GE to WA by swapping over at London seems to be working okay as far as I can tell. Please enlighten me as to how the current situation is so awful?

From a passenger POV because you get random trains on the GEML without the advertised first class or buffet. And you get random intercity units on the WA without the luggage storage needed for the airport runs.
From a TOC POV you don't have to understand much about diagramming or rocket science to understand that it must be an absolute pain in the neck to diagram, and that's before you factor in failures etc throwing everything out the window.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

Well exactly, they should have ordered a uniform fleet and that be that instead of 2 subfleets, would have negated the no 1st or buffet situation. Why must it be an absolute pain in the neck to diagram? Many units spends days away from their maintenance depot as is, and stable remotely in random places, and even if you're thinking from a crew perspective, there's a WA and Anglia crew depot at Liv St, which can between them cover the entire 745 operating areas. I really do think some people are trying to make it appear as difficult as possible when the reality is just "new" and "different" to how things worked before.
Before the pandemic, Stansted Express was a big money maker for GA, and the 8 car 379's were regularly full and standing. At the moment its unnecessary to use fixed 12's on Stansted, but hopefully as time goes by the traffic will build back up, and with the 720/1 fleet being cancelled, 2x5cars working to the airport won't be ideal, the rear unit will always be full and the front one not because people can't walk through as with 379 (not recently I admit) and 745.
It seems silly and confusing to me why the purpose built airport fixed 12 car trains (745/1) will be taken off their intended route, to be replaced by suburban EMU's that are wholly unsuitable for specific airport traffic.

 

[TheEdge]

Well okay then, look at some other TOCs and the distance their trains run from home depots, 150 miles is hardly the ends of the earth. If the 745 can run all the way to Liv St, what's an extra 30 miles on top? Honestly I don't know why some people seem so determined to make out like Stansted Airport is on the other side of the country. The zig zagging of units from GE to WA by swapping over at London seems to be working okay as far as I can tell. Please enlighten me as to how the current situation is so awful?

The diagramming is not as simple as the extra 30 miles on top of a London. The idea is that once a 745/1 leaves Crown Point for Stansted duties it should be based at Orient Way (where it can be CET and tanked) and not have to come back to Norwich until it needs an exam. So its not just a matter of a few trips to Stansted, one going down or needing to additionally come to or from Norwich is quite a headache. Especially if the only spare unit at Norwich to swap over is a 745/0.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

Well yes, in the same way that any other unit say based at Ilford will likely not go into Ilford except for an exam or for some other work, most overnight stabling is done not at Ilford for the EMU fleets. The distance involved is larger but its the exact same premise.
317 stables overnight at orient way, bishops stortford, stansted, hertford and cambridge, and will only visit ilford for exam probably every few days or longer.

 

[TheEdge]

The Ilford based units never wander too far from Ilford, they regularly find themselves at Liverpool Street and its only 8 miles so finding a driver with hours and route knowledge to do an extra move isn't a huge issue.. Do that with a 745 that needs to get back ECS from Liverpool Street and you've got 120 mile journey to sort, need to find a path the full length of the notoriously busy GEML and need to get hold of a driver will full GEML route knowledge and at least 5 hours of time remaining or willing to do overtime.

The distance is precisely the issue.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

It's the same as if a 317 fails at Kings Lynn though, it's out of course and not the norm. Of course units fail but it'll get better with time as they become more reliable.

 

[Energy]

It's the same as if a 317 fails at Kings Lynn though, it's out of course and not the norm. Of course units fail but it'll get better with time as they become more reliable.

317s are usually in multiple so surely they could transfer the passengers into a working unit and drag the failed one to a station then detrain and put all the passengers on another service? I'm not sure why you think the 720s are unsuitable for airport use, they have roughly the same physical length as the 745s and its only 30 miles which is perfectly fine on a 720.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

317s are usually in multiple so surely they could transfer the passengers into a working unit and drag the failed one to a station then detrain and put all the passengers on another service? I'm not sure why you think the 720s are unsuitable for airport use, they have roughly the same physical length as the 745s and its only 30 miles which is perfectly fine on a 720.

In multiple or not is irrelevant to the general point. If a 317 or 379 or 720 fails at Kings zlynn it would require a long trip back to Ilford with at least 1 change of crew along the way.
Have you been in a 720? You can barely walk through it without a backpack on, let alone with suitcases and all the other rubbish people take with them. There's barely any luggage racks and if they were to run equal length as a 745 it would require 2x5 cars which creates a barrier mid way through the train preventing people from spreading out.

 

[Energy]

In multiple or not is irrelevant to the general point. If a 317 or 379 or 720 fails at Kings zlynn it would require a long trip back to Ilford with at least 1 change of crew along the way.
Have you been in a 720? You can barely walk through it without a backpack on, let alone with suitcases and all the other rubbish people take with them. There's barely any luggage racks and if they were to run equal length as a 745 it would require 2x5 cars which creates a barrier mid way through the train preventing people from spreading out.

I agree with the 720s being tight (they should really remove the aisle seat on the 3 side to give loads of standing space) but they can change the layout for the airport units. Though unit gangways would be nice the barrier in the middle isn't a massive problem, people are fine with 12 car 321s.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

I agree with the 720s being tight (they should really remove the aisle seat on the 3 side to give loads of standing space) but they can change the layout for the airport units. Though unit gangways would be nice the barrier in the middle isn't a massive problem, people are fine with 12 car 321s.

Agreed, I don't know what work if any will be done to airport 720 or whether indeed they would even reliably diagram them to airport jobs. Even normal 720 layout is wholly in appropriate for Hertford East services, those ideally would need 710 style interiors but I doubt it. This is what happens with enormous stock orders like this, it may in general be okay but for the varied services GA has it's not really ideal.
The thing is though on stanex that people are used to walk through stock, 379 and then 745 and it really helps to balance the loadings when someone can see right down the aisle to the other end they are more likely to walk down.
720 seats of course are perfectly acceptable for airports, in any event personally I don't find the 745 any more comfortable in that sense, I can't tell you how many times I've banged my head on the luggage racks on a 745 at those seats which are above the bogies.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

...I can't tell you how many times I've banged my head on the luggage racks on a 745 at those seats which are above the bogies.

Ouch, same here... have only travelled on them a handful of times and have thus far managed to whack my head twice and trip over on the ramps. In all honesty, I do rather like the trains, but often get the feeling they're a bit of a death trap.

Don't get me started on the dodgy tap sensors in the toilets though!

 

[trebor79]

Don't get me started on the dodgy tap sensors in the toilets though!

Tell me about it! Sensor is to one side so the water doesn't fall onto your hands, and as soon as you move them the water switches off. After 5 or 6 goes there's a "CLUNK" from behind the mirror, and that's it sunshine, no more water for you!
Just needs the "Stay switched on timer" adjusted to 5 seconds instead of 5 nanoseconds and it'll be fine.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yeah I also banged my head on the luggage rack in a 745. Made me feel like a bit of an idiot but if it happens to a rail enthusiast, it's definitely going to happen to the public! I actually didn't find the seats especially good for my back either. The base was comfortable enough, but the shape of the back didn't really work out all that well for me, I actually found the 720 seating more comfortable.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Tell me about it! Sensor is to one side so the water doesn't fall onto your hands, and as soon as you move them the water switches off. After 5 or 6 goes there's a "CLUNK" from behind the mirror, and that's it sunshine, no more water for you!
Just needs the "Stay switched on timer" adjusted to 5 seconds instead of 5 nanoseconds and it'll be fine.

Exactly this! That "clunk of no return" is by far the most irritating thing - not once have I successfully walked out of the toilet without hands caked in soap...

 

[ashkeba]

I agree with the 720s being tight (they should really remove the aisle seat on the 3 side to give loads of standing space) but they can change the layout for the airport units. Though unit gangways would be nice the barrier in the middle isn't a massive problem, people are fine with 12 car 321s.

When did 12 car 321s work Stansted Express?

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

They haven't its been a mixture of 8/12 car 379 and 8 car 317's of recent years until the 745's came along.

 

[trebor79]

Exactly this! That "clunk of no return" is by far the most irritating thing - not once have I successfully walked out of the toilet without hands caked in soap...

I did discover recently that if you sort of move your hands continually from side to side they do at least get a bit wet.
At least the enhanced cleaning since COVID seems to have got rid of the urine splash ring on the walls that could be observed in the small cubicles. If I need a sit down I always use the disabled bog for this reason as it's almost impossible not to bump against the walls in the little cubicles.

 

[Energy]

When did 12 car 321s work Stansted Express?

They haven't, the point was that passengers are fine without a gangway though it isn't preferable.

 

[ashkeba]

They haven't, the point was that passengers are fine without a gangway though it isn't preferable.

The point I think was that stansted express always used to have a relatively high number of passengers throwing themselves on the last few cars and walking through, so non-gangway units are poor fits, but it has been a while since I used it much.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The point I think was that stansted express always used to have a relatively high number of passengers throwing themselves on the last few cars and walking through, so non-gangway units are poor fits, but it has been a while since I used it much.

Stansted Express trains, especially those from the airport, have always suffered with serious issues in terms of the load not being balanced anywhere near evenly throughout the train.

The carriages nearest the entrance to the platform were typically heavily overcrowded and like sardines during peak times, whereas if you walked to the rearmost carriages they could be carrying more fresh air than people.

Always amusing to see someone moan like hell on twitter about overcrowding when you are on the same train where you can have four seats to yourself and nobody sitting across the other side of the aisle either!

 

[Bikeman78]

The Ilford based units never wander too far from Ilford, they regularly find themselves at Liverpool Street and its only 8 miles so finding a driver with hours and route knowledge to do an extra move isn't a huge issue.. Do that with a 745 that needs to get back ECS from Liverpool Street and you've got 120 mile journey to sort, need to find a path the full length of the notoriously busy GEML and need to get hold of a driver will full GEML route knowledge and at least 5 hours of time remaining or willing to do overtime.

The distance is precisely the issue.

Could be worse. At least they don't have to go at 5 mph when towed by a locomotive.

I did discover recently that if you sort of move your hands continually from side to side they do at least get a bit wet.
At least the enhanced cleaning since COVID seems to have got rid of the urine splash ring on the walls that could be observed in the small cubicles. If I need a sit down I always use the disabled bog for this reason as it's almost impossible not to bump against the walls in the little cubicles.

I remember 30 years ago Ben Elton going on about the taps that you have to press. Goodness knows what he'd make of the latest design.

The point I think was that stansted express always used to have a relatively high number of passengers throwing themselves on the last few cars and walking through, so non-gangway units are poor fits, but it has been a while since I used it much.

Plenty don't walk through. They get in towards the rear at Stansted and then have a long walk at Tottenham Hale. I've seen lots of people getting plenty of exercise at Tottenham recently.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Really the standard express wants a lengthened 755 so if it fails or needs to go to crown point it can hop up via the breckland line.