Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[bastien]

Did we ever find out how these units are going to fit 4 diesel power packs into 2 motored cars?

 

[samuelmorris]

Did we ever find out how these units are going to fit 4 diesel power packs into 2 motored cars?

Is that what was proposed? My interpretation of the extra power unit was that an extra GU would be fitted to one of the driving vehicles, the one that doesn't have the pantograph and transformer.

 

[bastien]

Is that what was proposed? My interpretation of the extra power unit was that an extra GU would be fitted to one of the driving vehicles, the one that doesn't have the pantograph and transformer.

Hmm, I think we're going to have to start making a distinction between generator vehicles (those with the power pack and alternator) and motor vehicles (those with traction motors)... So we're talking something like DTG - MG - TG - MG - DTP I guess?

 

[samuelmorris]

Hmm, I think we're going to have to start making a distinction between generator vehicles (those with the power pack and alternator) and motor vehicles (those with traction motors)... So we're talking something like DTG - MG - TG - MG - DTP I guess?

There'd be little point having an additional GU without traction motors, I'd expect that particular driving vehicle to be powered, and only have the pantograph/transformer vehicle a trailer.

 

[Haydn1971]

It might just be my eyes, but those look a lot more like plug doors than the usual sliding affairs.

Seems a huge change for the AT300 design, but the image also suggests not enough space for the sliding door as the window is too close to the door to accommodate the pocket, which would fix the horrible windowless seats in an already shorter carriage ! I suspect more likely it’s artistic licence though

 

[Doomotron]

Artists impression aside, it might make sense for these to have plug doors - it might reduce the size of door machinery where space is at a bit of a premium on the shorter coach length.

Class 395s have massive sliding doors and 20m coaches.

 

[gingertom]

There'd be little point having an additional GU without traction motors, I'd expect that particular driving vehicle to be powered, and only have the pantograph/transformer vehicle a trailer.

been stated upthread that the 2x driving vehicles will each continue to house a pantograph and a transformer. Unsure whether the centre coach will have traction motors (it should imho) but it sounds like Hitachi have a way of slinging 2 gensets under a coach. This would mean a genset per traction bogie if the centre car is unpowered, which would mean there's more than enough power on diesel to match the performance on electric but it will be of lesser performance compared to the 800/801/802 because it is short of traction motors. If that centre vehicle is powered then you'd have 2 gensets powering 3 bogies, which requires the traction alternators to be synchronised- best of luck with that. I'm keeping in mind the 800/1/2 are 140mph machines on electric, perhaps the performance of the 804 (if that's what it to be called) will be 125mph.

 

[gingertom]

been stated upthread that the 2x driving vehicles will each continue to house a pantograph and a transformer. Unsure whether the centre coach will have traction motors (it should imho) but it sounds like Hitachi have a way of slinging 2 gensets under a coach. This would mean a genset per traction bogie if the centre car is unpowered, which would mean there's more than enough power on diesel to match the performance on electric but it will be of lesser performance compared to the 800/801/802 because it is short of traction motors. If that centre vehicle is powered then you'd have 2 gensets powering 3 bogies, which requires the traction alternators to be synchronised- best of luck with that. I'm keeping in mind the 800/1/2 are 140mph machines on electric, perhaps the performance of the 804 (if that's what it to be called) will be 125mph.

thinking further about this. Hitachi use 2 traction motors per bogie. 3 powered vehicles = 6 powered bogies = 12 traction motors. It can't be beyond the skill of the designers to arrange for the switchgear for each of the 4 gensets to power 3 traction motors each? An improvement over the 800/802 of a genset powering 4 motors each.

 

[Nym]

Especially since the whole unit has a massive traction busline end to end?

 

[samuelmorris]

been stated upthread that the 2x driving vehicles will each continue to house a pantograph and a transformer. Unsure whether the centre coach will have traction motors (it should imho) but it sounds like Hitachi have a way of slinging 2 gensets under a coach. This would mean a genset per traction bogie if the centre car is unpowered, which would mean there's more than enough power on diesel to match the performance on electric but it will be of lesser performance compared to the 800/801/802 because it is short of traction motors. If that centre vehicle is powered then you'd have 2 gensets powering 3 bogies, which requires the traction alternators to be synchronised- best of luck with that. I'm keeping in mind the 800/1/2 are 140mph machines on electric, perhaps the performance of the 804 (if that's what it to be called) will be 125mph.

Apologies, I missed that.

 

[Speed43125]

It might just be my eyes, but those look a lot more like plug doors than the usual sliding affairs.

I see that as well, which quite frankly, is what the stock should have had from the get-go if it is. But it dosen't look fully flush either, so I suspect is just a rendering thing and they are perhaps altered compared to current 80x stock, but are still sliding.

 

[gingertom]

Apologies, I missed that.

no worries. It was an article in Modern Railways that someone had shared. Until the things are actually delivered we won't know what's what.

 

[RealTrains07]

Not sure if this image has been released earlier, but it shows what looks to be a couple of changes versus previously released imagery.

These include a silver and not golden cone, the decals on the side are also different compared to their previous imagery, the top light is more horizontal than circular and the door is more flush, the cone is more pointed and this picture now shows digital cut-outs for carriage screens.

Source: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/east...ent-open-evening-tickets-90617478317?ref=estw

The cab looks a lot more sharper than before, actually looks really nice. I am not a big fan of the 800s either.

EMR is definitely being spoiled

 

[gingertom]

Especially since the whole unit has a massive traction busline end to end?

there's an article by a Hitachi design engineer, I'll try and dig out the link to it. The massive traction busline you refer to is only whilst on electric and comes from the transformer. When operating on diesel the switchgear isolates the motors from this busline and substitutes the gensets. The gensets don't contribute to the bus. Happy to be corrected if this was just a concept that engineer put up and differs from reality,

 

[DG85]

Outline design for this is underway, there may be some portal conversions, however the focus of the work at present is to change some crossover configurations on the fast lines, wire grading works and the removal of "shallow curve" registration arms to allow greater OLE uplift.

In answer to someone upthread, there are no balises installed as part of the initial electrification works since the stock using the wires at present will be electric only.

In the future I'd expect to see some form of Automatic Power Changeover at Market Harborough, but you never know, the March budget may add wiring further North!

This could actually be true, I’ve heard there’s a possibility it could be extended much further north now Failing Grayling is out of the picture.

 

[Nym]

there's an article by a Hitachi design engineer, I'll try and dig out the link to it. The massive traction busline you refer to is only whilst on electric and comes from the transformer. When operating on diesel the switchgear isolates the motors from this busline and substitutes the gensets. The gensets don't contribute to the bus. Happy to be corrected if this was just a concept that engineer put up and differs from reality,

Fair, but this may not be the case on the 804s.

Also, pretty thick to be honest, since other similar fleets do have this feature.

 

[LowLevel]

The EMR fleet director has confirmed today in a staff update that a) the fleet won't be class 804, that detail will be confirmed shortly and b) the sets will have 4 vehicles with 1 diesel engine each and one vehicle with a pantograph and transformer - no vehicle will have 2 engines.

 

[Domh245]

4 engine'd vehicles sounds far more sensible! Will be interesting to see if this panto/transformer vehicle is a driving car (which the renders suggest is the case) or a centre car. Having it on the driving cars, coupled with the frequent turning of sets on MML duties seems like a recipe for a lot of restricted running south of bedford (or increased maintenance!)

 

[Doomotron]

So if it isn't 804, what could it be? 810 might seem a good start, but I'll suspect it'll be something ridiculous like 898.

 

[hwl]

4 engine'd vehicles sounds far more sensible! Will be interesting to see if this panto/transformer vehicle is a driving car (which the renders suggest is the case) or a centre car. Having it on the driving cars, coupled with the frequent turning of sets on MML duties seems like a recipe for a lot of restricted running south of bedford (or increased maintenance!)

The existing 5 car ones have 2 pans but 1 transformer so a 2x5car unit could have pans up on 1st and 10th cars...

 

[Domh245]

The existing 5 car ones have 2 pans but 1 transformer so a 2x5car unit could have pans up on 1st and 10th cars...

I never realised that was the case, presumably the other driving trailer (assuming the transformer is there) has a lump of concrete? However, my reading of @LowLevel's post is that there will be a single vehicle with a pantograph in each unit. I suppose we'll have to wait for the details to be unveiled.

 

[hwl]

I never realised that was the case, presumably the other driving trailer (assuming the transformer is there) has a lump of concrete? However, my reading of @LowLevel's post is that there will be a single vehicle with a pantograph in each unit. I suppose we'll have to wait for the details to be unveiled.

It would't need a lump of concrete as it would have an engine raft adding weight instead!

 

[Domh245]

It would't need a lump of concrete as it would have an engine raft adding weight instead!

I meant in the current 80x. Have I misinterpreted your post?

 

[hwl]

I meant in the current 80x. Have I misinterpreted your post?

No just me getting confused between current and future

 

[Nym]

4 engine'd vehicles sounds far more sensible! Will be interesting to see if this panto/transformer vehicle is a driving car (which the renders suggest is the case) or a centre car. Having it on the driving cars, coupled with the frequent turning of sets on MML duties seems like a recipe for a lot of restricted running south of bedford (or increased maintenance!)

Given that there is almost certainly going to be an HT Busline with pans on the 1st and last cars, if I where a betting man I'd say the transformer will be in the centre car, and this will be a trailer also housing the aux batteries, statcon etc.

(Also given NR's allergy to intermediate spacing on the 26m 5 car units when in double, even though the instantaneous carbon strip forces seem to actually perform better)

 

[gingertom]

The EMR fleet director has confirmed today in a staff update that a) the fleet won't be class 804, that detail will be confirmed shortly and b) the sets will have 4 vehicles with 1 diesel engine each and one vehicle with a pantograph and transformer - no vehicle will have 2 engines.

how does this tie in with the recent release that stated there were to be only 2 motored vehicles, 2 & 4? Something doesn't quite add up.

 

[Jozhua]

how does this tie in with the recent release that stated there were to be only 2 motored vehicles, 2 & 4? Something doesn't quite add up.

Tbh, two motored vehicles doesn't really add up either considering the units need to match 222 timings. The 222's have pretty hefty engines, under every carriage too.

 

[gingertom]

Tbh, two motored vehicles doesn't really add up either considering the units need to match 222 timings. The 222's have pretty hefty engines, under every carriage too.

no it doesn't add up. Although 4x 940bhp is about the same as makes no odds as 5x 750bhp, provided the traction motors can make use of that power.

 

[hwl]

no it doesn't add up. Although 4x 940bhp is about the same as makes no odds as 5x 750bhp, provided the traction motors can make use of that power.

222 engines derated to 700hp about 8 years ago.

 

[bastien]

no it doesn't add up. Although 4x 940bhp is about the same as makes no odds as 5x 750bhp, provided the traction motors can make use of that power.

None of this makes sense so far. For example, the pantograph cars on the 800 are the ones with lower floors. But presumably these will have the power packs, higher floors and a pantograph. And presumably a rather low ceiling...