Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Raul_Duke]

Unless they ever get round to that remodel/flyover at Leicester then the MML is about as fast as it’s going to get in the meantime.


They missed a trick not straightening out Market Harborough during the rebuild.

 

[43096]

They missed a trick not straightening out Market Harborough during the rebuild.

Eh? They have straightened it out!

 

[Raul_Duke]

Eh? They have straightened it out!

Not as much as they could. Following the old alignment at Great Bowden. It was on the cards at one time apparently.

 

[D365]

Unless they ever get round to that remodel/flyover at Leicester then the MML is about as fast as it’s going to get in the meantime.

Apologies for going OT, do you have any links for a proposed Leicester remodelling? I'm interested to know which services would be using the flyover (EMR or XC?).

 

[cactustwirly]

Apologies for going OT, do you have any links for a proposed Leicester remodelling? I'm interested to know which services would be using the flyover (EMR or XC?).

XC most likely, to reduce the conflict between Syston Jct and Wigston Sth Jct

 

[greatvoyager]

I doubt that, a lot of work is having to be done to prevent the 804s being slower than the units they replaced. It's likely that the new units will accelerate faster on electric but there aren't many stops in electrified areas on this route so unless/until the whole of the route is electrified, I doubt there'll be any substantial difference, perhaps 1-2 mins might be saved if greater capacity reduces dwell times.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[greatvoyager]

Does anyone know if double formation trains are going to be used on any particular routes?

 

[DannyMich2018]

Hopefully peak hour weekdays and Sunday services which can be very busy. I was at Leicester yesterday. The 18.08 to Sheffie!d 7 car 222 was very busy and the 17.45 Nott-st Pancras HST was also busy so neither could be single 5 car sets. The 5 car 222s on the Sheffield semi fast can also struggle at peak times too.

 

[The Ham]

Hopefully peak hour weekdays and Sunday services which can be very busy. I was at Leicester yesterday. The 18.08 to Sheffie!d 7 car 222 was very busy and the 17.45 Nott-st Pancras HST was also busy so neither could be single 5 car sets. The 5 car 222s on the Sheffield semi fast can also struggle at peak times too.

Not all 5 coach trains are created equal:

According to Modern Railways magazine, the 804s will have around 300 seats and similar capacity to the 7-car 222s.
https://modern-railways.keypublishing.com/2019/12/18/emr-bi-mode-specification-confirmed/

From that link, the exact quote:

Each five-car set will provide over 300 seats across first and standard class, nearly matching the capacity of a seven-car Class 222.

As such any current 5 coach service will effectively be extended to be a 7 coach train. This means that if there's a current 5 coach service which then runs as a 10 coach train in the future it would see an increase in capacity of a factor of 2.5 even though the number of coaches had only gone up by a factor of 2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As such any current 5 coach service will effectively be extended to be a 7 coach train. This means that if there's a current 5 coach service which then runs as a 10 coach train in the future it would see an increase in capacity of a factor of 2.5 even though the number of coaches had only gone up by a factor of 2.

It is easy to forget just how inefficient the layout on 22x is (not to mention the 804 vehicles being a metre longer each). Voyagers and Meridians feel like silly little toy trains, whereas the 5-car 80x I've been on just don't.

 

[marko2]

Apologies for going OT, do you have any links for a proposed Leicester remodelling? I'm interested to know which services would be using the flyover (EMR or XC?).

Apologies for going OT, do you have any links for a proposed Leicester remodelling? I'm interested to know which services would be using the flyover (EMR or XC?).

Try the Network Rail East Midlands Route Study, Page 61.
https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/East-Midlands-Route-Study.pdf
https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/East-Midlands-Route-Study.pdf

 

[Qwerty133]

Not all 5 coach trains are created equal:



From that link, the exact quote:



As such any current 5 coach service will effectively be extended to be a 7 coach train. This means that if there's a current 5 coach service which then runs as a 10 coach train in the future it would see an increase in capacity of a factor of 2.5 even though the number of coaches had only gone up by a factor of 2.

The difference is standard class capacity between the 5 and 7 coach 222s is actually less than a coach due to the highly disproportionate amount of first class on the 7 coach trains. This means that a standard class capacity of 'almost the same' as a 7 coach could in reality be very little more than at present on a 5 coach.

 

[greatvoyager]

It is easy to forget just how inefficient the layout on 22x is (not to mention the 804 vehicles being a metre longer each). Voyagers and Meridians feel like silly little toy trains, whereas the 5-car 80x I've been on just don't.

Personally I hope the 804s are an improvement in comfort over other 80x units. At the moment they feel like they lack something.

 

[greatvoyager]

The difference is standard class capacity between the 5 and 7 coach 222s is actually less than a coach due to the highly disproportionate amount of first class on the 7 coach trains. This means that a standard class capacity of 'almost the same' as a 7 coach could in reality be very little more than at present on a 5 coach.

I guess it'll depend on the ratio of standard and first class seats on 804s.

 

[Domh245]

The difference is standard class capacity between the 5 and 7 coach 222s is actually less than a coach due to the highly disproportionate amount of first class on the 7 coach trains. This means that a standard class capacity of 'almost the same' as a 7 coach could in reality be very little more than at present on a 5 coach.

I'd be frankly amazed if they had the same ratio of First class as the 7x222 do. For reference, the percentage of seats which are FC for different fleets

7x222: 31%
5x222: 20%
GWR IET: 11%
TPE 802: 7%

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the percentage to be more like the IETs than the meridians!

 

[greatvoyager]

I'd be frankly amazed if they had the same ratio of First class as the 7x222 do. For reference, the percentage of seats which are FC for different fleets

7x222: 31%
5x222: 20%
GWR IET: 11%
TPE 802: 7%

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the percentage to be more like the IETs than the meridians!

I'd like to think that they probably will share a common layout with the other IETs.

 

[gingertom]

just wondering here- is the number of first class and standard seats set by the TOC or the DfT?

 

[Pete_uk]

Personally I hope the 804s are an improvement in comfort over other 80x units. At the moment they feel like they lack something.

A little bit more damping to stop the feeling of the track through ones posterior.

 

[greatvoyager]

A little bit more damping to stop the feeling of the track through ones posterior.

That would be nice.

 

[DannyMich2018]

I still think that to replace some 7 and 8 coach sets with just 5 is a mistake. Yes, these 5-car Class 804 units will have more standard seats, however peak hour services formed of just 5 cars will go from having more than 100 first class seats (7-car 222) and similar for 8-car HST to says 36 or 48 maybe? (which is the GWR and LNER 5-car Class 800 provision) which won't be enough. plus 5 car compared to 7 or 8 has less standing room, luggage storage, bike storage etc. Simply put 5-car services in the peak hours will struggle.

 

[Domh245]

Except that as pointed out, the number of units that have been ordered will allow for around half of the trains to be run at double length. Done sensibly these will be put on the peak services, leaving the 5 car services working services in the contra-peak direction. I am also not so sure that not having 100 first class seats on peak services will be that much of an issue - are they all filled currently?

 

[Edders23]

never been on any 80x yet But so many of my passengers tell me that long distance the seats are very uncomfortable even though they have more legroom than the stock they are replacing so sounds like they could do with thicker or more supportive cushions

 

[DannyMich2018]

Except that as pointed out, the number of units that have been ordered will allow for around half of the trains to be run at double length. Done sensibly these will be put on the peak services, leaving the 5 car services working services in the contra-peak direction. I am also not so sure that not having 100 first class seats on peak services will be that much of an issue - are they all filled currently?

Yes hopefully these new trains will have a better ratio of standard class seats. With what I regularly observe I'd say peak hour first class trains have say 70 or 80 filled seats so 100 is too many.

 

[greatvoyager]

Except that as pointed out, the number of units that have been ordered will allow for around half of the trains to be run at double length. Done sensibly these will be put on the peak services, leaving the 5 car services working services in the contra-peak direction. I am also not so sure that not having 100 first class seats on peak services will be that much of an issue - are they all filled currently?

And if they have comparable to 7-car 222s, that looks like a general increase in capacity.

 

[Thunderer]

I'd like to think that they probably will share a common layout with the other IETs.

I have read somewhere that one of the driving coaches will have 2 windows blanked (small mini-kitchen/trolley area) with the rest of that driving coach being First Class, so I think that equates to 24 seats as on the Trans-Pennine 802's. The adjacent coach is to be a composite (much like the GWR 800's and 802's) but just how much space in that composite coach will be First Class for the 804 is not known.

 

[greatvoyager]

I have read somewhere that one of the driving coaches will have 2 windows blanked (small mini-kitchen/trolley area) with the rest of that driving coach being First Class, so I think that equates to 24 seats as on the Trans-Pennine 802's. The adjacent coach is to be a composite (much like the GWR 800's and 802's) but just how much space in that composite coach will be First Class for the 804 is not known.

Interesting... Perhaps that means there will be a higher ratio of standard in the composite coach.

 

[Thunderer]

Interesting... Perhaps that means there will be a higher ratio of standard in the composite coach.

I guess they will dedicate either 3 windows or 4 windows on the composite coach to 1st class, but that is purely guess work.

 

[S&CLER]

Perhaps they could name the 804s 'Chuo Chuo Trains'!

It's not the name, but how they execute it. 'Azuma' only means 'east' in Japanese, but thanks to VTEC/LNER, it is used to describe infer the supposed ultra high speed of the 800/1s in the gimmicky way you mention.

By sheer coincidence the word azuma also has a meaning in Greek; it's the neuter plural of the adjective "azumos", meaning unfermented or unleavened (from a-zume, without yeast). In the neuter plural it's used by Mark 14, 1, to mean the Days of Unleavened Bread before the Passover (20-26 April last year).

 

[Roger B]

By sheer coincidence the word azuma also has a meaning in Greek; it's the neuter plural of the adjective "azumos", meaning unfermented or unleavened (from a-zume, without yeast). In the neuter plural it's used by Mark 14, 1, to mean the Days of Unleavened Bread before the Passover (20-26 April last year).

Fascinating. Love the link to scripture - thanks S&CLER

 

[greatvoyager]

I guess they will dedicate either 3 windows or 4 windows on the composite coach to 1st class, but that is purely guess work.

I just hope they get the layout right.