The point with relation to reservations and this sort of travel is that events like this have slightly vague finishing times, which are not purely running-time isseus eg they connect to things like how long it takes to get out of the venue, get bags from clokerooms etc. Yes, you can always book on the absolute latest train to allow for any delays but then that is clearly less convenient than knowing that you might be able to get an earlier service in the event of a quick getaway. And that will push some people towards other options: bus, taxi, driving.
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Compulsory Reservations- Poll
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The point with relation to reservations and this sort of travel is that events like this have slightly vague finishing times, which are not purely running-time isseus eg they connect to things like how long it takes to get out of the venue, get bags from clokerooms etc. Yes, you can always book on the absolute latest train to allow for any delays but then that is clearly less convenient than knowing that you might be able to get an earlier service in the event of a quick getaway. And that will push some people towards other options: bus, taxi, driving.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You're forgetting the other benefits, most specifically the ability to get a reservation right up to departure from all stations. To be fair systems like XC's also offer that, but that seems to receive a lot of hate on here. Personally I think XC have implemented it badly - just having one unreserved coach and the rest reserved would work better than reserving seats from under people.
I think you missed my point. Most IC routes only have one train after 2300, or at most two, so if you're going straight home after a gig or the theatre then you're going to be wanting the last train and you know that as soon as you buy the ticket. For instance, if I go from MK to a gig in Birmingham I have the option of the 2310 Avanti service - there is literally no other viable option for that other than a hotel or driving. And unfortunately that train time does sometimes mean missing an encore!
Or going the other way, the only viable train from Euston to Birmingham is likely to be the very last Avanti service of the day - the 2330 to Birmingham. After that it's all LNR services no further than Northampton, and literally nobody is proposing CR for commuter/regional trains.If the event finishes early (e.g. due to illness of the act) you could change to an earlier train if space was there, or go for a swift pint while you wait.
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One way around all this hassle, is to combine the advantages of both road and rail. I use my invented Park and Ride stations. Local stations near a large town. Free parking at station or nearby roads. Local train into town. eg. Bramley or Mortimer for Reading. Yatton or Nailsea for Bristol. The flexibity of the car, you can change your mind on the morning of travel. Free parking. Next train in, your choice of return train. The joint hassle of driving in congested towns, trying to find parking and the palava of reserving for a train are all avoided. Sorted.
Statto
Established Member
What benefits, i don't see any benefits other than putting people off using the train.You're forgetting the other benefits, most specifically the ability to get a reservation right up to departure from all stations. To be fair systems like XC's also offer that, but that seems to receive a lot of hate on here. Personally I think XC have implemented it badly - just having one unreserved coach and the rest reserved would work better than reserving seats from under people.
I think you missed my point. Most IC routes only have one train after 2300, or at most two, so if you're going straight home after a gig or the theatre then you're going to be wanting the last train and you know that as soon as you buy the ticket. For instance, if I go from MK to a gig in Birmingham I have the option of the 2310 Avanti service - there is literally no other viable option for that other than a hotel or driving. And unfortunately that train time does sometimes mean missing an encore!
If the event finishes early (e.g. due to illness of the act) you could change to an earlier train if space was there, or go for a swift pint while you wait.
you can reserve a seat now if you want to, but barring people from the train because they haven't reserved a seat is ridiculous
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The benefit of being able to reserve right up to departure is the abolition of the "Euston scrum" (other stations' versions are available, sadly) and a considerable reduction in stress of boarding trains for passengers who like to travel walk-up.
As I said you don't need CR to do that but you do need unmarked reservations, i.e. defined reserved and unreserved coaches/areas, otherwise people whine about seats being reserved from under them (see XC).
I'd always been under the impression that the Euston scrum was more down to the habit of not announcing the train until a relatively late point by which time many people travelling on the service have congregated in the concourse - CRs wouldn't change that one bit, indeed, I suspect that most people in the scrum already are on advances and so have reserved seats
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The main issue with the Euston scrum is people on walk-up tickets rushing to secure seats - the issue isn't the number of people, it's the competitive rush. There's no benefit to rushing if you have one reserved. Witness how boarding of low cost airline flights has become more civilised - even if there are still a load of people going to a gate at once, they aren't scrabbling for position to get desirable seats - and that's in a situation where you can be sure everyone can have a seat.
Late announcing of the train is an issue, yes, but even if they had a sensible setup e.g. a queueing area or the ability to go and queue by the door that's still stress.
I'll take your word on the primary cause of the Euston scrum being people on walk up tickets as I'm sure you're far more familiar with it than I am, but I remain not entirely convinced that it is the sole (or even main!) cause.
I agree that having CR would solve most issues around people jostling for position (though some would inevitably still occur - people with lots of luggage who may want to get preferential places on racks/overheads for example)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There would still be something similar with CR - a lot of people moving at once - but the primary problem with it isn't that but a lot of people moving at once quickly and without regard for others. It's been an issue for long enough that Ben Elton did a sketch about it..."double seat, double seat, gotta get a double seat"
There'd be an element of that, yes, but as Pendolinos have large and practically shaped overheads it's not that big a problem.
Euston specifically is a problem because platforms aren't announced until the last minute. Announce trains 20 minute early like at Picadilly and no scrum - you board the next waiting train regardless of what time you arrive.
Far bigger problem is the unused reservations.
Far bigger problem is the unused reservations.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Or you have to queue outside the door if you want a particular seat! Less fraught I'll give you, but still not the best.
Yes, true, it's nuts that there is neither a system nor a benefit for cancelling a reservation you don't want. Without CR I'd charge £2 for a reservation and give £1 back for cancelling it, which could be easily provided as an online thing.
Austriantrain
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Maybe take a leaf from the Japanese (just read about that in the International subforum) and have reserved and unreserved coaches. No standees allowed in reserved coaches (actually, it wouldn’t be a bad compromise, at least in Austria where I regularly use long-distance trains).
I have been guilty of going straight to U, when I have a reservation. Often find in airline seat, there is no one next to you.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, that would be a good way of solving the Euston scrum while still allowing those without reservations rocking up at the very last minute to board. It's also what PKP IC do (Poland) other than the EIP (Pendolino) services on which there is a hefty penalty for boarding without a reservation.
(It's interesting that Euston always gets the bad name for this, but there is an equally bad Paddington, Marylebone, Edinburgh, Inverness, Aberdeen etc scrum - indeed, being basically all commuters Marylebone is particularly vicious).
On rare times I'm traveling from Manchester to Euston, I can't think of a time I've turned up and there's no train waiting.
Aside from the first "off peak" services I can't think of a time I didn't get a seat either, however you can't relax for the first 10 minutes because of the danger of someone boarding at the last minute and moseying slowly up the train.
Get rid of all reservations unless the seat is occupied when the train starts to move would be ideal
Well, there is actually as you may find your reserved seat has been taken by someone else. And finding the TM to sort the matter on an 11 coach Pendolino can be a challenge.
Except EIP, the PKP InterCity trains aren't actually compulsory reservation.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That part of the discussion was about unmarked reservations - not compulsory, but you have to assume every seat is reserved if you didn't reserve one, but you can board and stand. That enables last minute reservations from all calling points.
Most IC routes only have one train after 2300, or at most two, so if you're going straight home after a gig or the theatre then you're going to be wanting the last train and you know that as soon as you buy the ticket. For instance, if I go from MK to a gig in Birmingham I have the option of the 2310 Avanti service - there is literally no other viable option for that other than a hotel or driving. And unfortunately that train time does sometimes mean missing an encore!
But my point is that LNER are doing exaclty that - proposing CR for commuter/regional trains - on the ECML in the north-east as over lengthy stretches of it the only services are intercity. We're talking about the only services which connect towns/cities that are 30 minutes apart
And maybe LNER have sufficient long-distance markets to not be bothered by that but the impact of that policy would be to cut the leisure/commuter market signficantly if enforced.
I think that the real reason we're arguing is because your contention that nobody should ever be permitted to stand on an LNER train is fundamentally wrong without major changes to infrastructure, and by major I mean several times the budget of HS2 in investment and perhaps a plan that would be complete by 2050.
As it stood at the end of 2019 people stand on LNER, as well as CrossCountry, Avanti and so on and so forth. While I can see an argument for standing being banned in First Class, or in small parts of both classes, fundamentally the people who were travelling in the vestibules should continue to be permitted to do so.
What I would say is a suitable solution is for boarding at London King's Cross and Edinburgh to be for reservation holders only until 10 minutes prior to departure. At that point, almost all of the long-distance passengers will have had their ticket inspected, located their seats and stowed their luggage. Unreserved passengers can then join the train to fill any remaining seats and the standing space.
I very much agree with you that that would be ridiculous, but to be fair we don't know that that is what they're proposing. From the other thread:
On a slightly different subject:
It's confusing to talk about this as a benefit of CR when as you say yourself it doesn't require CR. I don't see why it needs unmarked reservations either; certainly there should be unreservable seats, but I don't see why people without reservations shouldn't take a chance on sitting in reservable coaches, or why people with unsatisfactory reservations shouldn't move to a better seat*; knowing which seats are (currently) unreserved reduces the chance of being turned out, and a clear indication that the seat is reserved would warn you when you were likely to have to move*, and hopefully make disputes less likely.
*On my one journey on Thalys, and at least one of the comparatively few journeys I've made by TGV, I remember spending most of the journey in a window seat in an otherwise empty bay of 4, but having to look around at each stop in case someone turned up to claim it and I had to return to my less satisfactory official seat. I'd have preferred to know whether and when I was going to have to move. (How easy it would be to select a good seat at the time of reservation is of course an important question).
Unlike CR which is in most circumstances just bad, last-minute reservations probably actually increase the flexibility and spontaneity of train travel for people unable or unwilling to take a chance on having to stand. This does though come at the expense of those who want the convenience of just leaping on the train with the minimum of preliminary bother; a balance needs to be struck.
The trouble with "pricing them off" under our current pricing system is it tends to be too effective. You end up with a very quiet "last peak" train followed by a very busy "first offpeak" train.
Austriantrain
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On the continent - Germany and Austria in any case - „pricing them off“ really means offering discount tickets on less-frequented trains. On different price levels, so you can differentiate between several categories of „less full trains“ and quota-controlled, which you can also use to differentiate. These tickets are issued for specific trains, so no flexibility there. What we don’t have as much (although it does happen) are „saver“-categories where on a cheaper ticket, you can travel at certain times, but with full flexibility within them.
What apparently - I have heard rumours - is under consideration in Austria is offering free reservation with every - at-least every full-price - ticket offered, to encourage people to reserve more (unlike in Germany, while there is no CR but most passenders reserve, this is not the case here). I argued with a friend who works on those thinks at ÖBB because apparently reservation changes would still cost money, which I think on a full-price ticket is pointless: what you would want is a system where you can change your reservation easily but you can only have one reservation attached to a specific ticket, so that no reservation is unused and most people have a reserved seat. This way, while not having CR, you would still „nudge“ people because if they tried to change their reservation and find out that there are no reservable seats left (in Austria on long-distance trains 100% of seats are reservable) they will know that they are likely to stand and more motivated to look for another service (but would still be able to travel if it is urgent enough for them that they are prepared to stand).
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Few years ago took a train from Athens, wasn't clear everyone has seat reservations, coaches were not numbered and seat reservations weren't marked. So I got asked to leave my seat a few times. Least in UK we have them marked.
Unused reservations are a pain in the bum but surely having a system where you can choose which seat you want could help alleviate this to some extent. GWR take note but not having used Avanti yet do they do this? Or it it simply a case of people rushing to avoid some toe rag nicking their pre reserved seat?
This is where if properly implemented train specific advance fares come into play priced at 20% or so lower than the walk-on off-peak. The advance quota can be adjusted for the day of the week, school holidays etc.
To encourage this all pricing should be single leg based on 50 - 55% of the walk-on return. As highlighted in several posts just in this thread passengers will often commit to a specific train outbound / first leg but then want flexible tickets so they can concentrate on other things be that business or pleasure even though for the subsequent tickets there may well be an advance still available for the trains the use.
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reddragon
Established Member
I have not read this thread at at but in my view: -
Not all trains are clear cut as "Inter-City" trains.
On the GWR, Paddington - Reading is mainly commuters that catch the first train available. Reading to Swindon has many commuters with the same requirement. In Cornwall its a local stopping train.
Imagine the chaos at Paddington or Reading if you had to reserve a seat?
Now maybe certain trains could become compulsory reservation, maybe West Country trains from Paddington to say as far as Taunton, but the rest? No hope in it working!
Not all trains are clear cut as "Inter-City" trains.
On the GWR, Paddington - Reading is mainly commuters that catch the first train available. Reading to Swindon has many commuters with the same requirement. In Cornwall its a local stopping train.
Imagine the chaos at Paddington or Reading if you had to reserve a seat?
Now maybe certain trains could become compulsory reservation, maybe West Country trains from Paddington to say as far as Taunton, but the rest? No hope in it working!
I don't think there has been any suggestion of GWR having compulsory reservations. Standing for 22 minutes to Reading is no big deal. Back in the day, I used to try and get all the power cars every year so I'd do the first available winner out to Reading. I'd often stand if the train was busy. Since the 800s arrived it's rare to have to stand, unless a five car turns out vice nine or ten car. In which case reservations are irrelevant anway.
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