Could '73 tube stock be temporarily introduced on the Bakerloo Line?

[TRAX]

Any chance some of the better 1973s could go and replace some of the worse 1972s on the Bakerloo ?

Post moved from the 2024 Tube Stock thread

 

[MasterSpenny]

Any chance some of the better 1973s could go and replace some of the worse 1972s on the Bakerloo ?

I don’t think that would happen - off the top of my head the coaches are different (such as the 72 stock having bay seats and the 73 just has seats on the sides)

 

[TRAX]

I don’t think that would happen - off the top of my head the coaches are different (such as the 72 stock having bay seats and the 73 just has seats on the sides)

Not sure why the seat configuration would be an issue.

 

[Silent]

Not sure why the seat configuration would be an issue.

73ts carriages are probably too long to run on the curviest parts of the Bakerloo line

 

[Thirteen]

There's no real point moving the 1973 stock to the Bakerloo Line if the plan is to introduce the 2024 stock to the Bakerloo in the future.

 

[TRAX]

There's no real point moving the 1973 stock to the Bakerloo Line if the plan is to introduce the 2024 stock to the Bakerloo in the future.

Could help for a little while.
The 2024s on the Bakerloo won’t be for a long while.

 

[Thirteen]

Even though they're in better nick than the 1972 stock, I do think keeping stock that is already life expired going for longer is not a good idea.

 

[Gonzalez]

Any chance some of the better 1973s could go and replace some of the worse 1972s on the Bakerloo ?

Post moved from the 2024 Tube Stock thread

Temporarily putting the 73s on the Bakerloo line meaning the Bakerloo would be one carriage short. (72s have 7 carriages compared to 73s only 6 carriages) Overcrowding might become an issue.

 

[DanNCL]

Theoretically yes but it would be too much hassle for very little gain. The 73 stock is almost as old as the 72 stock and has been used more intensively than the 72 stock. The 72 stock has has a comparatively sedate working life that apart from a few years on the Jubilee line in the late 70s/early 80s has been entirely on the Bakerloo line.
To run on the Bakerloo the 73 stock would need modification.

73ts carriages are probably too long to run on the curviest parts of the Bakerloo line

In current condition yes but they can be modified to run on the Bakerloo line as has been done with the ex-73 stock carriage in the Track Recording Unit.

Temporarily putting the 73s on the Bakerloo line meaning the Bakerloo would be one carriage short. (72s have 7 carriages compared to 73s only 6 carriages) Overcrowding might become an issue.

73 stock has longer carriages than 72 stock so capacity wise a 6-car train of 73 stock is roughly the same as a 7-car train of 72 stock.

 

[birchesgreen]

I don't think 1973TS quite fits, one was tested on the Bakerloo years ago and there were some issues.

 

[cle]

The 72 stock has has a comparatively sedate working life that apart from a few years on the Jubilee line in the late 70s/early 80s has been entirely on the Bakerloo line.

Curious how you could say these knackered old dogs have had a sedate working life? Because the Piccs have a single fast stretch, or longer journeys? The Bakerloo has more intensive turns, working NR lines, complicated depot moves - and both share some horrible screechy curves. I don’t see a competition here, both need new asap.

Piccadilly were marginally better kept no doubt due to LHR, but equally the dot matrix machines barely worked (next X train within Y minutes for decades) and they are baby sized.

 

[Mikey C]

If the Central Line jumped the queue for replacement stock, then maybe some of the best 92s could be used on the Bakerloo Line (reduced to 7 cars). The 92 cars are the same length as the 72s, so presumably would fit.

 

[Thirteen]

If the Central Line jumped the queue for replacement stock, then maybe some of the best 92s could be used on the Bakerloo Line (reduced to 7 cars). The 92 cars are the same length as the 72s, so presumably would fit.

The 1992 stock is ATO so likely out of the question.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The 1992 stock is ATO so likely out of the question.

But can be manually driven as it is on the Waterloo & City line.

 

[Thirteen]

I wouldn't be surprised if Bakerloo Line stock replacement is a pledge by both Sadiq Khan and Susan Hall in their manifesto. It's pretty obvious that the 1972 stock is not fit for purpose and keeping it going longer is going to be costly in the long run.

 

[JonathanH]

I wouldn't be surprised if Bakerloo Line stock replacement is a pledge by both Sadiq Khan and Susan Hall in their manifesto.

A funded pledge? Where is the money going to come from? They would need to carefully word their pledge to say that they would seek funds rather than to actually commit to replacement.

It's pretty obvious that the 1972 stock is not fit for purpose and keeping it going longer is going to be costly in the long run.

The Bakerloo line is a bit of a backwater to all intents and purposes. It may be costly to keep the 1972 stock operational but that essentially comes out of a different budget.

 

[Trainguy34]

If it takes long enough for them to get replaced, it might replace the 484s on Island Line!

 

[Thirteen]

A funded pledge? Where is the money going to come from? They would need to carefully word their pledge to say that they would seek funds rather than to actually commit to replacement.

The option expires in 2026 so a commitment to exercise the contract options by that time isn't impossible.

Susan Hall is from Harrow so could easily spiel about how her part of London has old, worn out stock and as Mayor, she'd try and get upgrades for the Bakerloo Line as well as new trams for London Trams.

If it takes long enough for them to get replaced, it might replace the 484s on Island Line!

The 484s are a bit younger in terms of the body shell but it's all new in terms of everything else so unlikely they'd go to the Isle of Wight.

 

[AndrewP]

I think the 73 stock feels more modern than the 72 due to their more extensive interior modernisation so my suggestion is that they should be replaced by whatever is in the best condition.

Also if the option expires in 2026 for 24 stock I can see there being a decision to allow competition if Derby is still around

 

[Thirteen]

I think the 73 stock feels more modern than the 72 due to their more extensive interior modernisation so my suggestion is that they should be replaced by whatever is in the best condition.

Also if the option expires in 2026 for 24 stock I can see there being a decision to allow competition if Derby is still around

I suspect TfL aren't going to be using Alstom for anything given they've gone for CAF and Siemens for the B23s and 2024 stock. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the option exercised once a new Government in in power regardless who is Mayor.

The next major stock contract is the Tram replacements but given rolling stock on the trams don't need to bespoke, I would imagine they will lot of bidders.

 

[Mikey C]

The 73s are more modern than the 72s anyway, they're half a generation ahead seeing that the 72s are a manually controlled version of the 67 stock.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I don’t think that would happen - [] (such as the 72 stock having bay seats and the 73 just has seats on the sides)

If anything, all that would do would be reduce overcrowding

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If anything, all that would do would be reduce overcrowding

Which is very rare on the Bakerloo line to have crowding.

 

[MaidaVale]

In short, No.

By the time they've been extensively modified for compatibility with the Bakerloo line, Stonebridge Park and London Road depots having been equipped to maintain them with all the depot staff retrained, all the I/Ops, T/Ops and Ops Managers trained on the 73s, The order for Bakerloo's new stock would already be in place. I think you've slightly underestimated how much would need do be changed despite them both technically being conventional lines with "similar" stock.

This is all without even mentioning the fact that 73 cars are over a metre longer than 72 cars so would potentially have issues on sharper corners.

Considerably more time, effort and money than it's worth especially considering the ongoing refurbishments on the 72s.

But can be manually driven as it is on the Waterloo & City line.

The Waterloo & City is still a conventional line with the stock fitted tripcocks and signals with train stops. Despite being the same stock on paper as the 92s used on the Central line, The W&C stock aren't fitted with ATO/ATP equipment, and vice-versa with the Central and tripcocks.

The Central line is manually driven with ATP in Coded Manual* (known as Protected Manual elsewhere) which still requires codes from the ATO signalling system to be driven manually.

*they can be driven in RM but this is limited to 15kph and has no protection against passing signals at danger, hence it wouldn't work on the Bakerloo.

 

[Nym]

In current condition yes but they can be modified to run on the Bakerloo line as has been done with the ex-73 stock carriage in the Track Recording Unit.

Car TRC666 / 999666 is NOT a standard 1973TS Trailer. It has been very heavily modified by BR in the 1980s, including changes to the vehicle dynamics that have moved the end swing point further into the curves which reduces issues with TRC666 on the Central and Bakerloo line tight curves. It's also driven by highly experienced TransPlant drivers who know exactly where all the gauging issues are and slow down to compensate for them, further reducing the end swing and centre swing issues within the kinematic envelope of the carriage.