Cross Country Service Reductions and Alterations, 28-11-2021 onwards

[NEDdrv]

I didn’t say 30 hours a week at work I said 30 hours a week in the cab. 30 hours a week is equivalent to 6 hours a day driving time for 5 days a week. Ok so maybe it does need revising slightly upwards, but not by a huge amount.
Do I work for a rail operator? No and I’ve never claimed otherwise. I do however have a good understanding of the rail industry and the way it works. I am well aware of the level of responsibility that comes with being a driver, as well as the incredible amount of memory and concentration it requires. But there are lots of other jobs that require the same level of memory and concentration that don’t pay even half what train drivers get paid, yet you don’t hear those people moaning about conditions.
A compromise clearly is needed, there is zero evidence to suggest that either side of the dispute have made any effort to sort it out, and yes that does lie as much with XC as it does with the staff. Simply agreeing to make an effort to sort it out would be a compromise in itself. Considering how much train drivers already get paid in comparison to other jobs of equal importance and skill both in the terms of pay and perks (Find me an NHS surgeon that gets free or significantly reduced cost travel across the entire rail network, guaranteed days off for the first x number of people to request it, and extensive family and friends discounts), it’s no surprise the treasury and the public are fed up. Don’t bite the hand that feeds is the phrase that comes to mind. It’s not the majority of drivers but it is a very vocal minority of them.

Ok, so you only count being at work when a driver is actually in the cab, so office based training or being spare at the depot doesn’t count. You say you have a good understanding of the railway but you comments don’t back this up. We like most if not all employees have a legal right to paid holidays but as we don’t, like a lot of jobs get bank holidays off work (they are just normal days) we get leave days to take instead and these are the days you refer to. Depots have a limit set on the maximum number of drivers that can be off on leave which is why the first x number get the days off. Since when do drivers set the number of staff needed to run the service, oh never. It is cheaper for the companies to run with under the full number of staff but have rest day working. The treasury foots the bills with the reduction in passenger numbers so is not happy, before covid there were plenty companies in the bidding to run the franchises and plenty took a lot of money out of the railway. By the way you forgot to mention the NHS trained surgeons who work 3 days for the NHS the work for the private sector. ASLEF I am sure are waiting for the phone call. I don’t suppose you want to say what your job is.

 

[Falcon1200]

Without going into detail, or releasing confidential information, is it possible to clarify in what way XC are not abiding by agreed rostering procedure; Presumably this does not mean breaking the Hidden regulations, but affects Drivers in other ways ? And is it not possible to cover all diagrams while still adhering to the agreed procedure ?

Whatever the outcome, the current dispute is, like so many others, a disaster for all concerned; Passengers are receiving a much poorer service, those Drivers happy to work overtime are unable to, and XC's reputation is even further down the toilet than it was already.

 

[irish_rail]

I've never had to stand when I travel First Class on a 4 Coach Voyager.

Oh well there you go everyone can just travel first class and we'll be fine. Pity not everyone can afford to. You are right that first class on XC is invariably empty, maybe coverting it into standard would help some of the overcrowding problems meer mortals face back in steerage....

 

[Killingworth]

Oh well there you go everyone can just travel first class and we'll be fine. Pity not everyone can afford to. You are right that first class on XC is invariably empty, maybe coverting it into standard would help some of the overcrowding problems meer mortals face back in steerage....

I last tried to upgrade to first between Sheffield and Newcastle on a Saturday morning. 2 other people in carriage but I was told it was full. After discussion I was allowed to sit there. It did fill up a little more from Leeds to York.

When significant numbers of reserved seats are not taken up it makes load management a nightmare.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I last tried to upgrade to first between Sheffield and Newcastle on a Saturday morning. 2 other people in carriage but I was told it was full. After discussion I was allowed to sit there. It did fill up a little more from Leeds to York.

When significant numbers of reserved seats are not taken up it makes load management a nightmare.

I agree, reservations can be extremely wasteful. I had to sit backwards on a recent journey, I reserved forward facing, this was my only specification, I was not bothered about a window/table seat. However I got a window and a table but backwards. The seat across from me was empty the whole journey for an unused reservation, I should have checked the display on the rack and asked for permission to use that seat.

I do think easing mandatory reservations for Advance tickets could help, surely the booking system can estimate if there will be enough seats in First without assigning a specific seat.

 

[O L Leigh]

I didn’t say 30 hours a week at work I said 30 hours a week in the cab. 30 hours a week is equivalent to 6 hours a day driving time for 5 days a week. Ok so maybe it does need revising slightly upwards, but not by a huge amount.
Do I work for a rail operator? No and I’ve never claimed otherwise. I do however have a good understanding of the rail industry and the way it works. I am well aware of the level of responsibility that comes with being a driver, as well as the incredible amount of memory and concentration it requires. But there are lots of other jobs that require the same level of memory and concentration that don’t pay even half what train drivers get paid, yet you don’t hear those people moaning about conditions.

I don't know where this idea of equivalency has come from, but this forum is shot through with it. It's hardly news to say that two jobs are different, pay differently, have different levels of responsibility and different perks.

A compromise clearly is needed, there is zero evidence to suggest that either side of the dispute have made any effort to sort it out, and yes that does lie as much with XC as it does with the staff. Simply agreeing to make an effort to sort it out would be a compromise in itself. Considering how much train drivers already get paid in comparison to other jobs of equal importance and skill both in the terms of pay and perks (Find me an NHS surgeon that gets free or significantly reduced cost travel across the entire rail network, guaranteed days off for the first x number of people to request it, and extensive family and friends discounts), it’s no surprise the treasury and the public are fed up. Don’t bite the hand that feeds is the phrase that comes to mind. It’s not the majority of drivers but it is a very vocal minority of them.

I think we already adequately covered the asking-for-more-money angle and put that one to bed, so lets not go down the road of making accusations about biting hands. As for trying to sort this situation out, what do you think is happening? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that nothing is happening.

Lets be completely clear about this. This is not about getting more money or better conditions or holding anyone to ransom. This is not about greed or avarice, or even trying to look popular. Plain and simple, this is about making sure that an employer honours it's staff's existing terms of service.

Without going into detail, or releasing confidential information, is it possible to clarify in what way XC are not abiding by agreed rostering procedure; Presumably this does not mean breaking the Hidden regulations, but affects Drivers in other ways ? And is it not possible to cover all diagrams while still adhering to the agreed procedure ?

Correct.

 

[NEDdrv]

Without going into detail, or releasing confidential information, is it possible to clarify in what way XC are not abiding by agreed rostering procedure; Presumably this does not mean breaking the Hidden regulations, but affects Drivers in other ways ? And is it not possible to cover all diagrams while still adhering to the agreed procedure ?

Whatever the outcome, the current dispute is, like so many others, a disaster for all concerned; Passengers are receiving a much poorer service, those Drivers happy to work overtime are unable to, and XC's reputation is even further down the toilet than it was already.

Ok will try to make it simple, depot A has an uncovered turn, when the rest day agreement is in place if it cannot be covered by spare drivers at other depots (route and traction competent) it would go to a rest day volunteer at depot A, if as now there is no agreement in place job would be covered by taking a driver off his booked turn which could then mean overtime for that driver which he would only find out when he booked on for duty. His turn would then need covered which could impact on many drivers at other depots being used in the same way. XC at this time are able to fully use our terms and conditions which we understand and get on with to cover jobs, what ASLEF want is when there is a rest day agreement in place it is adhered to correctly. Hope this helps

 

[NoOnesFool]

Ok will try to make it simple, depot A has an uncovered turn, when the rest day agreement is in place if it cannot be covered by spare drivers at other depots (route and traction competent) it would go to a rest day volunteer at depot A, if as now there is no agreement in place job would be covered by taking a driver off his booked turn which could then mean overtime for that driver which he would only find out when he booked on for duty. His turn would then need covered which could impact on many drivers at other depots being used in the same way. XC at this time are able to fully use our terms and conditions which we understand and get on with to cover jobs, what ASLEF want is when there is a rest day agreement in place it is adhered to correctly. Hope this helps

So the jist of the problem is drivers being taken off of their booked shift and un-willingly ending up doing overtime. E.g. Kevin is booked to work until 20:00 but is taken off his diagram mid shift and placed on to one which finishes at 23:00.

 

[Efini92]

Ok, so you only count being at work when a driver is actually in the cab, so office based training or being spare at the depot doesn’t count. You say you have a good understanding of the railway but you comments don’t back this up. We like most if not all employees have a legal right to paid holidays but as we don’t, like a lot of jobs get bank holidays off work (they are just normal days) we get leave days to take instead and these are the days you refer to. Depots have a limit set on the maximum number of drivers that can be off on leave which is why the first x number get the days off. Since when do drivers set the number of staff needed to run the service, oh never. It is cheaper for the companies to run with under the full number of staff but have rest day working. The treasury foots the bills with the reduction in passenger numbers so is not happy, before covid there were plenty companies in the bidding to run the franchises and plenty took a lot of money out of the railway. By the way you forgot to mention the NHS trained surgeons who work 3 days for the NHS the work for the private sector. ASLEF I am sure are waiting for the phone call. I don’t suppose you want to say what your job is.

It’s always a race to the bottom in this country. Instead of sticking up for each other they tell us we should accept less because other people do.

 

[dk1]

It’s always a race to the bottom in this country. Instead of sticking up for each other they tell us we should accept less because other people do.

In my experience it's often from somebody in the road haulage industry or those with a chip on their shoulder as they failed to make the grade.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I agree, reservations can be extremely wasteful. I had to sit backwards on a recent journey, I reserved forward facing, this was my only specification, I was not bothered about a window/table seat. However I got a window and a table but backwards. The seat across from me was empty the whole journey for an unused reservation, I should have checked the display on the rack and asked for permission to use that seat.

I do think easing mandatory reservations for Advance tickets could help, surely the booking system can estimate if there will be enough seats in First without assigning a specific seat.

You might not be aware but CrossCountry don't offer a choice of direction. Reasons...

1. Some services mean the train reverses direction during their journey.

2. First Class can be located at any end of a CrossCountry train.

 

[NEDdrv]

So the jist of the problem is drivers being taken off of their booked shift and un-willingly ending up doing overtime. E.g. Kevin is booked to work until 20:00 but is taken off his diagram mid shift and placed on to one which finishes at 23:00.

Tried to put it a simple as I could but it comes down to there is an agreement in place during rest day working which is within the drivers terms and conditions which was not being adhered too so the agreement was not renewed. Drivers are expected to work to their t and c’s and we all do, many go beyond but that is never seen by the public because the train just runs.

 

[NoOnesFool]

You might not be aware but CrossCountry don't offer a choice of direction. Reasons...

1. Some services mean the train reverses direction during their journey.

2. First Class can be located at any end of a CrossCountry train.

Thanks for that, I didn't know this was a general policy. I know they reverse at Reading/BHM on South Coast services but this was a Plymouth one which goes straight through. It makes sense now, especially as they don't have a closed fleet that they can ensure leaves the depot a set way. I booked through LNER (where First is usually at a set position).

 

[WelshBluebird]

Why, in 2021, are ToCs still reliant on staff doing overtime to actually fulfil their timetabled services? I can't think of any other industry that as a matter of normal service relies on overtime like that year round.

 

[dk1]

Why, in 2021, are ToCs still reliant on staff doing overtime to actually fulfil their timetabled services? I can't think of any other industry that as a matter of normal service relies on overtime like that year round.

I can't think of many other industries that have the complex nature that the railway does. It's a very difficult juggling act most of the time. Overtime will always be a thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't think of many other industries that have the complex nature that the railway does. It's a very difficult juggling act most of the time. Overtime will always be a thing.

It will, because of serious delays and the likes. But the railway should be able to cover its day to day operations with staff within their contracted hours. And having an entire day of the week which is not is utterly ludicrous.

It is time to have that battle on every TOC in my view, while demand is lower.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I can't think of many other industries that have the complex nature that the railway does. It's a very difficult juggling act most of the time. Overtime will always be a thing.

There is a huge difference between overtime being a thing (as it is in many industries) and a business relying on overtime to fulfil their core operations (which not many do - for good reason). Of course overtime will always be a thing - there will always be sickness, or unexpected events, or disruption that requires staff to work longer than planned (or staff who weren't working to be asked to step in if possible). But the idea that the railway requires overtime for their core timetables is just bonkers (and will be for 99% of the general public too).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a huge difference between overtime being a thing (as it is in many industries) and a business relying on overtime to fulfil their core operations (which not many do - for good reason). Of course overtime will always be a thing - there will always be sickness, or unexpected events, or disruption that requires staff to work longer than planned (or staff who weren't working to be asked to step in if possible). But the idea that the railway requires overtime for their core timetables is just bonkers (and will be for 99% of the general public too).

Yes, totally. It is also a potential safety issue - the less rest someone takes, the more likely they are to be overtired.

 

[NEDdrv]

It will, because of serious delays and the likes. But the railway should be able to cover its day to day operations with staff within their contracted hours. And having an entire day of the week which is not is utterly ludicrous.

It is time to have that battle on every TOC in my view, while demand is lower.

Take it your talking about Sundays, in my 20 years at XC I don’t think drivers have ever had a dispute about Sundays, as stated before we are contracted to work our booked ones, you can get someone else to work it or put in a not available and if it can be covered by a spare man you do get the day off. If Sundays were brought into the working week:
1. how would you cover the days Mon to Sat that would be moved to cover the Sundays
2. do you think we should just work an extra day

most of the time at most depots there is not a lot of rest day working (Birmingham might be an exception because of size and knowledg)
As others have stated late notice sickness, delays, failures etc can’t be predicted but having the rest day agreement normally means things like these can be covered easier.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Ok will try to make it simple, depot A has an uncovered turn, when the rest day agreement is in place if it cannot be covered by spare drivers at other depots (route and traction competent) it would go to a rest day volunteer at depot A, if as now there is no agreement in place job would be covered by taking a driver off his booked turn which could then mean overtime for that driver which he would only find out when he booked on for duty. His turn would then need covered which could impact on many drivers at other depots being used in the same way. XC at this time are able to fully use our terms and conditions which we understand and get on with to cover jobs, what ASLEF want is when there is a rest day agreement in place it is adhered to correctly. Hope this helps

So let me get this right. You’re a Cross Country Driver and you book on at 1200 to work ABC1 duty booking off at 1900. But when you book on, the TCS says ‘change of plan, you’re actually working ABC2 duty now which books on at 1230 and books off at 2230’. And you can’t refuse to do that as that is part of your Ts and Cs???

 

[NEDdrv]

So let me get this right. You’re a Cross Country Driver and you book on at 1200 to work ABC1 duty booking off at 1900. But when you book on, the TCS says ‘change of plan, you’re actually working ABC2 duty now which books on at 1230 and books off at 2230’. And you can’t refuse to do that as that is part of your Ts and Cs???

Your book on time won’t change, you will be told when booking on your doing something different and may finish later than booked, but this could have an effect on numerous drivers at different depots to cover part or all of the job
you should have been on. as stated before you could be on a 5 hour turn where the last train you work is anything up to 5 hours late and you are committed by our t & c’s to wait. Drivers have to work to their T & C s or you would be in trouble.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Your book on time won’t change, you will be told when booking on your doing something different and may finish later than booked, but this could have an effect on numerous drivers at different depots to cover part or all of the job
you should have been on. as stated before you could be on a 5 hour turn where the last train you work is anything up to 5 hours late and you are committed by our t & c’s to wait. Drivers have to work to their T & C s or you would be in trouble.

So the commitment to work up to ten hours each day, they can invoke that to get you to cover a different turn to your own (which may be longer).
So you could book on today at 1500 expecting to work until 2100 on a nice little 6 hour job but when you book on they could just say ‘change of plan mate, you’re finishing at 0000 now’ and there’s nothing you can do about it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Take it your talking about Sundays, in my 20 years at XC I don’t think drivers have ever had a dispute about Sundays, as stated before we are contracted to work our booked ones, you can get someone else to work it or put in a not available and if it can be covered by a spare man you do get the day off.

I don't think that is an unfair way to do it. Allocate people contractual Sundays, and if they don't want them they can effectively "swap" then with / "sell" them to others provided others do want them. But if others don't want them you have to work them, and once you've said you'll work one you can't withdraw unless someone else will take it on. That's fair and really quite easy to manage.

So the commitment to work up to ten hours each day, they can invoke that to get you to cover a different turn to your own (which may be longer).
So you could book on today at 1500 expecting to work until 2100 on a nice little 6 hour job but when you book on they could just say ‘change of plan mate, you’re finishing at 0000 now’ and there’s nothing you can do about it?

That does seem a bit unfair.

 

[NEDdrv]

So the commitment to work up to ten hours each day, they can invoke that to get you to cover a different turn to your own (which may be longer).
So you could book on today at 1500 expecting to work until 2100 on a nice little 6 hour job but when you book on they could just say ‘change of plan mate, you’re finishing at 0000 now’ and there’s nothing you can do about it?

No, if your moved from a booked turn they can only force an hours overtime but like I said that could be applied to numerous drivers. You can also be affected by this every day of your week. This agreement has been agreed for years and signed by both parties, only now after many warnings has it not been renewed. This is not done lightly as the company can now utilise the movement as there is no rest day agreement but there will be no goodwill from the drivers.

 

[Efini92]

So the commitment to work up to ten hours each day, they can invoke that to get you to cover a different turn to your own (which may be longer).
So you could book on today at 1500 expecting to work until 2100 on a nice little 6 hour job but when you book on they could just say ‘change of plan mate, you’re finishing at 0000 now’ and there’s nothing you can do about it?

No they could extend your job to 2200

 

[NoOnesFool]

Why can't they hire part time drivers to work Sundays and guarantee it as a rest day for all the other drivers? Obviously it's no use short term but it's a plausible solution long-term and might please ASLEF.

 

[Efini92]

Why can't they hire part time drivers to work Sundays and guarantee it as a rest day for all the other drivers? Obviously it's no use short term but it's a plausible solution long-term and might please ASLEF.

ASLEF want Sundays in the working week.
It wouldn’t work for numerous reasons, one being it would affect the depot establishment figures which is how you calculate how many could be on leave at any one time.

 

[dk1]

It will, because of serious delays and the likes. But the railway should be able to cover its day to day operations with staff within their contracted hours. And having an entire day of the week which is not is utterly ludicrous.

It is time to have that battle on every TOC in my view, while demand is lower.

Demand is not that much lower. If both sides keep to their side of the bargain theres no need for battles. Works well for most of the time but you'll never get away from overtime.

There is a huge difference between overtime being a thing (as it is in many industries) and a business relying on overtime to fulfil their core operations (which not many do - for good reason). Of course overtime will always be a thing - there will always be sickness, or unexpected events, or disruption that requires staff to work longer than planned (or staff who weren't working to be asked to step in if possible). But the idea that the railway requires overtime for their core timetables is just bonkers (and will be for 99% of the general public too).

It has always been that way. There us no such thing as a perfect world when it comes to traincrew cover. Even when depot establishments are full RDW & overtime is still rife. It's the nature of the beast.

 

[fodphil]

Demand is not that much lower. If both sides keep to their side of the bargain theres no need for battles. Works well for most of the time but you'll never get away from overtime.


It has always been that way. There us no such thing as a perfect world when it comes to traincrew cover. Even when depot establishments are full RDW & overtime is still rife. It's the nature of the beast.

Therefore the establishment calculator is wrong.
It was changed at XC about 12 years ago and theirin lies the base problem

 

[Falcon1200]

Ok will try to make it simple, depot A has an uncovered turn, when the rest day agreement is in place if it cannot be covered by spare drivers at other depots (route and traction competent) it would go to a rest day volunteer at depot A, if as now there is no agreement in place job would be covered by taking a driver off his booked turn which could then mean overtime for that driver which he would only find out when he booked on for duty. His turn would then need covered which could impact on many drivers at other depots being used in the same way. XC at this time are able to fully use our terms and conditions which we understand and get on with to cover jobs, what ASLEF want is when there is a rest day agreement in place it is adhered to correctly. Hope this helps

Thanks for the explanation.