Croydon Tram Crash

[Robertj21a]

I suspect we may end up seeing a lot of arguing and blame passing between TFL and First, and vice versa.

I'm not expecting the RAIB report to probe too deeply into the management side of things either, especially on the TFL side. It's essentially one public body investigating another after all. I've found it rather noticeable that their reports into TFL incidents have been rather vague when it comes to management.

The end result will no doubt be First get blamed, rightly or wrongly.

I'm open to be convinced otherwise, but I'm struggling to see how TfL can end up with much blame attached to them at all. Assuming that their tender document included all the legal/compliance issues that you would expect to be included in such a contract, then it seems inevitable that First Group is going to be blamed.

 

[BestWestern]

Oh dear

Management/control thinking that safety systems aren't really essential and that drivers can carry on if they aren't working. The last time they went down that road, there was an awfully big bang involving an HST and a freight train. Perhaps the tram operation needs to be run by rail division managers, who've learned from past experience and have due regard for doing things properly.

 

[theageofthetra]

Oh dear

Management/control thinking that safety systems aren't really essential and that drivers can carry if they aren't working. The last time they went down that road, there was an awfully big bang involving an HST and a freight train. Perhaps the tram operation needs to be run by rail division managers, who've learned from past experience and have due regard for doing things properly.

Well said.

 

[bramling]

I'm open to be convinced otherwise, but I'm struggling to see how TfL can end up with much blame attached to them at all. Assuming that their tender document included all the legal/compliance issues that you would expect to be included in such a contract, then it seems inevitable that First Group is going to be blamed.

Depends. It wasn't First who designed the tramway with the sharp curve and no technical safeguard to mitigate against an overspeed. Plenty of scope for bickering and blame shifting, although I hope it doesn't come to this.

 

[Busaholic]

What are the chances of TfL bringing operation 'in house'?

 

[LiftFan]

Politically I can't see it returning to use. It would be a little insensitive to have it potentially running to places where relatives may see or even use it. Probably will be stripped and then disposed off, perhaps at best could be used for some kind of training in a secluded location.

Saying that they did rebuild the C stock carriages that were destroyed on 7/7, even though by then the trains were almost 40 years old

 

[matt_world2004]

What are the chances of TfL bringing operation 'in house'?

Wouldnt they be banned from bringing it in house because of the requirement that railways are privately operated?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Saying that they did rebuild the C stock carriages that were destroyed on 7/7, even though by then the trains were almost 40 years old

As I understand it, the underframes of those two carriages were re-used but the bodyshells were 100% new build.

 

[JaJaWa]

Wouldnt they be banned from bringing it in house because of the requirement that railways are privately operated?

TfWM just brought Midland Metro operations in house from National Express

 

[rebmcr]

Wouldnt they be banned from bringing it in house because of the requirement that railways are privately operated?

What requirement? Additionally, Croydon Trams is a tramway, not a railway.

 

[littlerock]

Returning to my earlier point about some drivers saying the dmh was broken or not fit for purpose. This is something that can be tested and also the historical records can be inspected. (Not to say of course the records of work are always accurate - Potter's Bar anyone?). Does anyone know how often the servicing happens?

 

[bramling]

As I understand it, the underframes of those two carriages were re-used but the bodyshells were 100% new build.

Yes I believe everything above the solebar was new build, although it's possible some interior fixtures were re-used. Either way, the result was basically a new vehicle. It was only done because the C stock fleet was already heavily stretched and a decision was taken that they didn't want to manage for potentially 5-10 years being effectively a train down. The economics may also have been favoured because other cars (in which no one died) needed heavy repairs so it was possible to combine everything together.

In the case of Croydon, it simply wouldn't be economic to rebuild the vehicle in this way, even if technically feasible. It's also worth remembering that the tram derailed at nearly 50 mph which is quite high even for a rail vehicle let alone a tram. Is repairing a 20-year-old vehicle that's been involved in an accident of that severity really a good use of funds, when a new vehicle can be readily purchased, probably be available for service sooner, and be standard with other vehicles being introduced at the same time? It's sad to see 2551 go, however the way I see it replacement is a no-brainer from political, economic and technical points of view. Time will tell however...

 

[bramling]

What are the chances of TfL bringing operation 'in house'?

I suspect a lot may depend on the outcome of the respective investigations. *If* First are heavily criticised particularly on their safety management, then there may be some political pressure to do just that. However, it goes against TFL's current favoured method of operating non-Underground services, as Crossrail, Overground, DLR and buses are generally all operated via a concession model.

Being cynical, I suspect TFL would secretly be more-than happy for Tramlink to simply disappear. It's always been a bit of a problem child, I'm not familiar with exactly what the issues were but I know the Tramtrack Croydon contract was hardly a bed of roses.

 

[Robertj21a]

I suspect a lot may depend on the outcome of the respective investigations. *If* First are heavily criticised particularly on their safety management, then there may be some political pressure to do just that. However, it goes against TFL's current favoured method of operating non-Underground services, as Crossrail, Overground, DLR and buses are generally all operated via a concession model.

Being cynical, I suspect TFL would secretly be more-than happy for Tramlink to simply disappear. It's always been a bit of a problem child, I'm not familiar with exactly what the issues were but I know the Tramtrack Croydon contract was hardly a bed of roses.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Stagecoach take it on. As an existing, respected, bus, train and tram operator it would be a sensible move.

 

[Antman]

It wouldn't surprise me to see Stagecoach take it on. As an existing, respected, bus, train and tram operator it would be a sensible move.

Are we sure that First have done anything wrong? As a passenger I've always thought they run Tramlink very well although obviously I don't know what may have been happening behind the scenes.

 

[edwin_m]

It wouldn't surprise me to see Stagecoach take it on. As an existing, respected, bus, train and tram operator it would be a sensible move.

Stagecoach sold off the Metrolink operating concession, which was very similar to Tramlink in that it was the operation of a service to a tight specification under someone else's branding. They seem to prefer operations that have more commercial freedom like Supertram, though that doesn't stop them having London bus contracts.

 

[WatcherZero]

Stagecoach bought the Sheffield tramway out of receivership. They secured the remaining 26 out of a 30 year concession for just £1.15m when the public owned company that ran it (a subsidiary of SYPTE) went bust.

 

[Robertj21a]

Someone like Stagecoach would be interested in taking on the Croydon operation - if the price was right. The problem is that TfL have finances under pressure and are unlikely to be able to afford a 'quality' operator.....

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Which bus group (First, Go-Ahead, Stagecoach) either covers bus routes along the whole tram routes or over the lions share of the tram routes?

 

[GodAtum]

I suspect a lot may depend on the outcome of the respective investigations. *If* First are heavily criticised particularly on their safety management, then there may be some political pressure to do just that. However, it goes against TFL's current favoured method of operating non-Underground services, as Crossrail, Overground, DLR and buses are generally all operated via a concession model.

Being cynical, I suspect TFL would secretly be more-than happy for Tramlink to simply disappear. It's always been a bit of a problem child, I'm not familiar with exactly what the issues were but I know the Tramtrack Croydon contract was hardly a bed of roses.

By disappear do you mean the tram to stop entirely?

 

[Antman]

Someone like Stagecoach would be interested in taking on the Croydon operation - if the price was right. The problem is that TfL have finances under pressure and are unlikely to be able to afford a 'quality' operator.....

Is there any reason to suggest they don't have a quality operator already? This does seem to be turning into a witch hunt against First.

 

[bramling]

By disappear do you mean the tram to stop entirely?

Yes, as in wish it didn't exist or at least that they had nothing to do with it. One gets the impression it has always been something of a nuisance.

Obviously that won't happen, but I bet the thought has crossed a few TFL minds.

 

[Caterpillar]

deleted

 

[Caterpillar]

Is there any reason to suggest they don't have a quality operator already? This does seem to be turning into a witch hunt against First.

I am in no doubt First MAY be a quality rail operator.

However the management of tramlink are all previously First bus managers. That is the critical difference.

Examples.
One of the senior managers refers to the drivers as 'only glorified bus drivers'.
The rota pattern are a direct lift from First bus rotas, these have remained unchanged since the system started.
Looking back at Aslef records, there has been dissent and complaints about the shift rota and regular 7 day working going back to 2003.

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder that this thread is to discuss the Croydon Tram Crash.

(If anyone wishes to discuss a different matter, or sees that someone else has gone off-topic and you wish to reply, please create a new thread, as for us to split posts into a new topic is very time consuming, thanks! )

 

[Robertj21a]

Which bus group (First, Go-Ahead, Stagecoach) either covers bus routes along the whole tram routes or over the lions share of the tram routes?

I'm conscious that we have, rightly, been reminded that this thread is to discuss the tram crash (not ancillary issues) but to just answer your question, it really doesn't matter which operator runs the local bus routes - they are all TfL tendered operations, so will often change upon retender.

 

[BestWestern]

I'm conscious that we have, rightly, been reminded that this thread is to discuss the tram crash (not ancillary issues) but to just answer your question, it really doesn't matter which operator runs the local bus routes - they are all TfL tendered operations, so will often change upon retender.

I'm going to suggest that if discussion of the 'Croydon Tram Crash' involves root cause issues with the operation and staffing of it, that seems perfectly reasonable? Banning disucssion of issues surrounding First's approach (when said issues are quite obviously being looked at as part of the incident), is surely over-sanitising the thread?! Is there a concern regarding litigation, Mods? You can say so if there is!

 

[Busaholic]

I'm conscious that we have, rightly, been reminded that this thread is to discuss the tram crash (not ancillary issues) but to just answer your question, it really doesn't matter which operator runs the local bus routes - they are all TfL tendered operations, so will often change upon retender.

Difficult to discuss the crash itself at this stage until something 'official' or semi-official occurs, but, just to briefly digress to the bus route question, the predecessor to the New Addington tram route was the 130 group of routes operated by Croydon Garage i.e. Arriva, aka DeutsheBahn.

 

[LiftFan]

I do think First (As a bus operator) were never that great. Certainly here they have been known to stop running perfectly viable routes, not to mention the invisible timetable they never stick to or the ancient buses they use. They are better as a railway operator even though the DMUs in the west have a tendency to not run due to a train fault (Often a 158)

 

[Robertj21a]

Difficult to discuss the crash itself at this stage until something 'official' or semi-official occurs, but, just to briefly digress to the bus route question, the predecessor to the New Addington tram route was the 130 group of routes operated by Croydon Garage i.e. Arriva, aka DeutsheBahn.

Just to correct you, Arriva is not aka DeutscheBahn. Arriva is Arriva, DB is simply the parent company.