Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston

[Purple Train]

What you say sounds sensible but have you tried to walk through an Avanti (any?) train with a heavy suitcase. It is very difficult and slow.

I have walked through a Class 720 with a heavy suitcase and been no more clumsy than I am normally, so I'd be interested to hear why that would be given a 390 has much more generous aisle width, as (though my memory may well be hazy) does a 221.

 

[cool110]

I have walked through a Class 720 with a heavy suitcase and been no more clumsy than I am normally, so I'd be interested to hear why that would be given a 390 has much more generous aisle width, as (though my memory may well be hazy) does a 221.

Those are open walk-through, 390s and 221s have the doors causing the bottleneck.

 

[WAB]

I have walked through a Class 720 with a heavy suitcase and been no more clumsy than I am normally, so I'd be interested to hear why that would be given a 390 has much more generous aisle width, as (though my memory may well be hazy) does a 221.

I've walked through a Pendo from cab to cab and it was a tiring experience empty as there are so many doors, a low ceiling (for someone of my height), and no windows near eye-level to make it feel like you're making progress.

The berth (train describers). It’s normally not the platform berth but one just outside the station.

This is why if you have a proactive signaller / controller available they can either a) make manual announcements or b) alter the platform manually which buys you a few more minutes.

Would it not be possible to trigger the change as soon as the path is called, in that case?

 

[bramling]

I think it's part of it. It's not 100% of it, because WMT don't do boarding checks other than at the 8-11 gateline and very occasional RPI stings.

(I do know Avanti staff hate it when a WMT service is called on the next platform, though)

I can’t help but get a feeling the whole Euston Gateline is to pacify the on-train staff, specifically to reduce the likelihood of the TM experiencing issues when they do their check.

This seems to fit in with the whole ethos on West Coast, where the on-train staff seem to be the tail wagging the dog.

 

[railfan99]

How long do other European terminals give you to board long distance services? I wouldn't usually take lessons on customer service from Parisiens but even they can't be this bad.

At Paris Gare de Lyon in September 2022, boarding for the TGV to Girona and Barcelona only started about 12 minutes before scheduled departure.

A scrum developed around the barriers, and it was then a lengthy walk to the front set. Older passengers may have found this challenging.

It was only marginally better than what I've seen at Euston, but being a foreigner I am not at either often enough to have a large sample.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I can’t help but get a feeling the whole Euston Gateline is to pacify the on-train staff, specifically to reduce the likelihood of the TM experiencing issues when they do their check.

This seems to fit in with the whole ethos on West Coast, where the on-train staff seem to be the tail wagging the dog.

Possibly, but at least the individual platform control helps to avoid the situation where (say) hundreds of Warrington Wolves (rugby) fans get on a Glasgow service, first stop Warrington Bank Quay, with tickets to South Hampstead and then just pretend that they accidentally got on the wrong train.

 

[Krokodil]

I've only ever arrived at Gare de Lyon, never departed. I've departed from Gare de l'Est (I think that it was a TGV rather than an ICE) and there was a ticket check (including checking Covid passes) but I don't remember any scrum. I'll be back there at the end of the month.

12 minutes is quite a bit more time than you might get at Euston.

 

[Dr Hoo]

But then you've got 2+ hours to go and issue them all penalty fares!

I didn’t think that Train Managers (on their own) were even authorised or trained to issue Penalty Fares (?)

 

[cool110]

Avanti don't have Penalty Fares in the first place.

 

[londonmidland]

Someone posted a video on Twitter/X yesterday, of the severe overcrowding at Euston due to the signalling problems. They voiced their concerns about it not being safe and handled very well.

How is London Euston safe? And where is the security and crowd management. If this were a music festival there would be a system. Kids were getting pushed. If anything happen, there would be a stampede and people would be crushed. This is totally not safe. #euston

I found the response by Network Rail at Euston quite passive aggressive, in my opinion:

We have competent staff managing congestion.

We are asking that passengers wait until platforms are announced instead of blocking passage ways before trains are ready to board using info from apps.

During disruption platforms can change and our team is managing that.

 

[Wolfie]

Someone posted a video on Twitter/X yesterday, of the severe overcrowding at Euston due to the signalling problems. They voiced their concerns about it not being safe and handled very well.



I found the response by Network Rail at Euston quite passive aggressive, in my opinion:

That Network Rail response oozes smug complacency. If there is a latter incident in similar circumstances they have damned themselves right there.

 

[spyinthesky]

Has anyone ever thought of reporting this as a ‘near miss’ to the HSE.
These are work premises and a 3rd party is entitled to report such things.

 

[exbrel]

Someone posted a video on Twitter/X yesterday, of the severe overcrowding at Euston due to the signalling problems. They voiced their concerns about it not being safe and handled very well.



I found the response by Network Rail at Euston quite passive aggressive, in my opinion:

that response must have come down from their ivory tower... and if, God forbid something did happen then good luck to the competent staff managing the congestion... at our local football club we are told and have been for a good while the threat is substantial. Just imagine............

 

[londonmidland]

Waiting at Euston, with the 11:53 to Manchester Piccadilly was the only being advertised, along with a Blackpool North service.

Once the 11:53 to Manchester Piccadilly was announced, it was like The Hunger Games, with everyone running and pushing each other to the platform to get onboard.

There’s around three worth of train loads on this Pendolino. Luckily, it’s an 11 coach. All coaches have been declassified.

 

[cool110]

Has anyone ever thought of reporting this as a ‘near miss’ to the HSE.
These are work premises and a 3rd party is entitled to report such things.

HSE won't be able to accept the report, ORR have sole responsibility over railway premises.

 

[DWW]

HSE won't be able to accept the report, ORR have sole responsibility over railway premises.

And ORR issued an improvement notice on 26th September 2023 with a deadline of 21st November. (https://orrprdpubreg1.blob.core.win...230926-03-Network-Rail-improvement-notice.pdf). Reading the reports here, nothing appears to have happened.

If there are injuries or deaths ORR are going to have a difficult time explaining their failures in enforcement.

 

[gazzaa2]

That Network Rail response oozes smug complacency. If there is a latter incident in similar circumstances they have damned themselves right there.

They think if they just shut the gates whenever there's overcrowding then they'll be okay.

 

[CarrotPie]

They think if they just shut the gates whenever there's overcrowding then they'll be okay.

Well, to be fair to them, it does help overcrowding in the station...just not outside it. Seems like yet another dodgy bodge to me!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, to be fair to them, it does help overcrowding in the station...just not outside it. Seems like yet another dodgy bodge to me!

Similarly they think employing shouty men to get people not to wait by the ramps is helping - it's not, it puts more people in the rush, not fewer!

(What is it about Network Rail and shouty men? Shouting at your customers is not a very good way to give a good experience)

 

[Deafdoggie]

Similarly they think employing shouty men to get people not to wait by the ramps is helping - it's not, it puts more people in the rush, not fewer!

(What is it about Network Rail and shouty men? Shouting at your customers is not a very good way to give a good experience)

It is most odd. It's well known that you get a much lower response rate from people if you shout at them. Presumably station staff don't want people to listen to what they shout, there can't be any other reason. Buy it does beg the question why they carry on doing it. My guess is that they feel important being able to shout at people & when people don't respond they shout more which makes them feel even more important! But it really does defy all logic.

 

[P Binnersley]

And ORR issued an improvement notice on 26th September 2023 with a deadline of 21st November. (https://orrprdpubreg1.blob.core.win...230926-03-Network-Rail-improvement-notice.pdf). Reading the reports here, nothing appears to have happened.

If there are injuries or deaths ORR are going to have a difficult time explaining their failures in enforcement.

Still Open according to the ORR Website. Now more than 3 months past the extended compliance date.

Notice issued to Network Rail Infrastructure Ltd on 26 September 2023​

• Issue date: 26 September 2023
• Compliance date: 21 November 2023, extended to 15 December 2023
• Status: Open
• Public register ID: I/NWM/20230926/03

Description:

Network Rail have failed to implement, so far as is reasonably practicable, effective measures to prevent risks to health and safety of passengers (and other persons at the station) during passenger surges and overcrowding events at London Euston Station.

ORR has agreed with Network Rail to a short timescale extension to the Improvement Notice which allows the company to put the necessary control measures in place.

What options does the ORR have now other than fining Network Rail or a Prohibition notice shutting down Euston?

 

[Purple Train]

(What is it about Network Rail and shouty men? Shouting at your customers is not a very good way to give a good experience)

There was a thread about this not all that long ago (I think mostly tending towards dispatchers, but employing the same general point), and the general consensus from staff was that no one listened if the staff concerned were Sergeant Wilson-esque "Would you mind awfully standing behind the red line?" sorts.

I agree with you that, in this case, the instruction is the problem, though. I'm not saying I agree with the shouting - there are arguments for and against, and I have seen staff shout unnecessarily at passengers! - but I think that's the rationale.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was a thread about this not all that long ago (I think mostly tending towards dispatchers, but employing the same general point), and the general consensus from staff was that no one listened if the staff concerned were Sergeant Wilson-esque "Would you mind awfully standing behind the red line?" sorts.

I agree with you that, in this case, the instruction is the problem, though. I'm not saying I agree with the shouting - there are arguments for and against, and I have seen staff shout unnecessarily at passengers! - but I think that's the rationale.

Yes, that's what I mean. The problem is that the system is faulty (both at Euston and Picc 13/14), and employing people to shout at people doesn't provide an improvement, just a poor customer experience. The actual system needs to be fixed.

 

[BankQuayLowLvl]

Horrible disruption at Euston yesterday (I understand 6 platforms out of service at one point) & can echo previous comments about dangerous station management - arrived on heavily overcrowded via-Birmingham Avanti service roughly on time, but at roughly same time as LNWR service which used same ramp (I think we were on 4 and that was on 6) which immediately started boarding causing significant conflict with our train's passengers trying to get out. Concourse was full-to-bursting and station staff tried to hold our train's passengers on ramp to prevent further crush, though this was after most had already gotten into concourse.

As an aside, fairly sure that service is usually set-down only at Watford Jctn but we picked up (a lot of) passengers. Guessing this is due to the severe disruption - anyone know how common this is?

 

[dosbod stuey]

People in customer service who've never been trained in customer service. In the job because they like trains/railways.

 

[43066]

People in customer service who've never been trained in customer service. In the job because they like trains/railways.

That’s generally just the drivers . Platform staff, and guards in particular, tend to enjoy interacting with the public in my experience.

It sounds like Euston is a complete nightmare, but there’s a limit to how much staff on the ground can do to change arrangements, however unsatisfactory. They just have to get on with it.

 

[PG]

Yes, that's what I mean. The problem is that the system is faulty (both at Euston and Picc 13/14), and employing people to shout at people doesn't provide an improvement, just a poor customer experience. The actual system needs to be fixed.

It sounds like Euston is a complete nightmare, but there’s a limit to how much staff on the ground can do to change arrangements, however unsatisfactory. They just have to get on with it.

I agree with you both. Fix the system and the problem becomes manageable instead of trying to get staff to work to an unworkable system!
I'm drawing a parallel with WCRC and their operation of slam door stock - instead of tackling the risk of doors not being securely closed by fitting Central Door Locking they unsuccessfully tried to mitigate the problem by employing people to watch the doors - eventually the ORR withdrew their licence.

 

[physics34]

It is most odd. It's well known that you get a much lower response rate from people if you shout at them. Presumably station staff don't want people to listen to what they shout, there can't be any other reason. Buy it does beg the question why they carry on doing it. My guess is that they feel important being able to shout at people & when people don't respond they shout more which makes them feel even more important! But it really does defy all logic.

Same with loads of announcements... the more there are the more people ignore them but the idiots who make these decisions seem oblivious and keep getting it all wrong

 

[WAB]

Even when they only have the Overground to deal with, Euston doesn't make a very good job of it. The platform alteration announcement was cut off before any useful information was given, and the huddle of staff didn't really do anything to send people to the right platform. Funnily enough, they still feel the need to suppress the platform of LO services until the previous train has departed, as if it's going to be anything other than 9/10...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even when they only have the Overground to deal with, Euston doesn't make a very good job of it. The platform alteration announcement was cut off before any useful information was given, and the huddle of staff didn't really do anything to send people to the right platform. Funnily enough, they still feel the need to suppress the platform of LO services until the previous train has departed, as if it's going to be anything other than 9/10...

This started with the new boards, and is *utterly* ludicrous.