December 2022 Timetable Changes

[infobleep]

The timetables were consulted on. Here, again, is the link:

Train Timetable | South Western Railway

Our timetables can be downloaded direct to your computer or mobile phone, giving you easy access to the information wherever you are.

www.southwesternrailway.com

Thanks for reminding me of this. I was thinking about the actual timetable as opposed to just frequencies.

I'm particularly interested in how good the connections will be from Guildford to Clapham Junction as currently there is only one fast train an hour and it surely deserves two, especially if the number of leisure travellers is going to be above pre-covid levels, unlike commuting. I accept during parts of the peak periods trains don't even stop at Clapham Junction. However, before covid, there were 2 fast trains an hour from Guildford to Clapham Junction.

Now they might be able to rearrange the timetable to enable a suitable connection at Woking. Currently, there isn't one, unless one thinks waiting 20 minutes at Woking reasonable for an otherwise 30 minute journey. (Actually difference is overall journey times 17 minutes).

 

[miklcct]

Thanks for reminding me of this. I was thinking about the actual timetable as opposed to just frequencies.

I'm particularly interested in how good the connections will be from Guildford to Clapham Junction as currently there is only one fast train an hour and it surely deserves two, especially if the number of leisure travellers is going to be above pre-covid levels, unlike commuting. I accept during parts of the peak periods trains don't even stop at Clapham Junction. However, before covid, there were 2 fast trains an hour from Guildford to Clapham Junction.

Now they might be able to rearrange the timetable to enable a suitable connection at Woking. Currently, there isn't one, unless one thinks waiting 20 minutes at Woking reasonable for an otherwise 30 minute journey. (Actually difference is overall journey times 17 minutes).

There is a 3-minute connection for one of the fast train, effectively making the fast service 2 tph (although not evenly spread).

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks for reminding me of this. I was thinking about the actual timetable as opposed to just frequencies.

I'm particularly interested in how good the connections will be from Guildford to Clapham Junction as currently there is only one fast train an hour and it surely deserves two, especially if the number of leisure travellers is going to be above pre-covid levels, unlike commuting. I accept during parts of the peak periods trains don't even stop at Clapham Junction. However, before covid, there were 2 fast trains an hour from Guildford to Clapham Junction.

Now they might be able to rearrange the timetable to enable a suitable connection at Woking. Currently, there isn't one, unless one thinks waiting 20 minutes at Woking reasonable for an otherwise 30 minute journey. (Actually difference is overall journey times 17 minutes).

I should add that they need to get approval from the DfT before the Summer recess then start informing us of the changes shortly after.

One thing that will feature I'm told is reinstatement of the various missing late evening services.

 

[infobleep]

There is a 3-minute connection for one of the fast train, effectively making the fast service 2 tph (although not evenly spread).

I do, do that but the other day it involved running as the train I was on, was late.

Most be added the officially connection time at Woking is 5 minutes and this falls faul of that.

 

[DDB]

This waiting for DfT approval worries me as I am hope to get trains back to Spondon from EMR in the December update and I believe that either needs approval or will be used as an excuse by EMR

 

[Bald Rick]

I had an online Meet the Manager session with SWR earlier.

They confirmed that they want to introduce the timetable as consulted on in 2021 (which is a complete overhaul) in December 2022. The timetables are all drafted, but they've been waiting for the go-ahead from DfT for ages and time is quickly running out.

time ran out three months ago.
it’s not happening.

 

[DorkingMain]

time ran out three months ago.
it’s not happening.

Surely a key issue with their planned timetable was that it relied on them having a fully-available metro fleet (ie. 701s). They can barely manage the current service levels without pulling 450s off regional work

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely a key issue with their planned timetable was that it relied on them having a fully-available metro fleet (ie. 701s). They can barely manage the current service levels without pulling 450s off regional work

the key issue is how much it costs to run.

 

[DorkingMain]

the key issue is how much it costs to run.

Of course - but my point is could they even do so if they wanted to?

 

[Goldfish62]

time ran out three months ago.
it’s not happening.

So I was lied to?

 

[Watershed]

the key issue is how much it costs to run.

Indeed, and they are not alone in that predicament...

 

[43074]

Indeed, and they are not alone in that predicament...

When even LNER are in that predicament things are in dire straits given how strong their recovery has been, relatively speaking...

 

[Bald Rick]

When even LNER are in that predicament things are in dire straits given how strong their recovery has been, relatively speaking...

Yes

So I was lied to?

that depends what was said and whether the person who said it knows what is happening.

 

[Goldfish62]

that depends what was said and whether the person who said it knows what is happening.

Well, two things there.

From their job title they will be intimately involved in the timetable change process at a high level.

I made no mention of the Dec 2022 timetable. I was just asking about a couple of missing post-Covid services and whether they would be reintroduced. It was SWR Person who then volunteered information about the December 2022 timetable.

 

[infobleep]

the key issue is how much it costs to run.

So is there not enough demand from passengers or is there demand but not enough of the type paying enough money? Are other TOCs doing better?

If it isn't cost effective to run more trains, could they still not redo the timetable with the rolling stock they have, to make journey connection better? I accept I'm biased towards trains going from Guildford to Clapham Junction or decent connections at Woking that show up in the journey planner search.

Finally, does anyone know if the time period on a weekend evening [16:00:19:00] is still more popular than a Saturday evening around that time?

Yes



that depends what was said and whether the person who said it knows what is happening.

Perhaps misinformed might be a good term to use here. Perhaps a correctiob could be issued as they do in the House of Commons.....when they can be bothere that is..

 

[Bald Rick]

So is there not enough demand from passengers or is there demand but not enough of the type paying enough money?

there’s not enough money.

 

[infobleep]

On normal Saturday timetables, there is a variation to the usual services of x01 and x20 Reading to Gatwick Aiport, mid-afternoon. This being:

13:01 Reading to Gatwick Airport [fast]
13:20 Reading to Gatwick Airport [slow to Shalford then fast]
13:34 Reading to Redhill [fast to Guildford then semi-fast to Redhill]
14:20 Reading to Redhill [slow to Gomshall then fast]
15:01 Reading to Gatwick Airport [fast]

Does anyone know if this is temporary or likely to continue beyond December?

It caught me out once as it doesn't occur Monday to Friday and from Guildford, the services are 13:40, 14:07, 14:13, 15:13, 15:40

 

[JonathanH]

There is a path for an excursion train from Guildford at 1417 towards Redhill which looks fairly permanent (although has lots of pathing) and would conflict with a train in the usual xx01 path from Reading.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66213/2022-07-16/detailed

 

[Starmill]

It is an aspiration & becoming more & more needed with some decent passenger loadings once again. The reliability & availability of 745s is another story. Class 720 substitutions here been made recently so that maybe the way forward.

The reality is that there was really no need to go to twelve car on all Stansted Express services. Some on Saturdays were still four. It was just a consequence of needing to order more Flirts than the Norwich services use. As they're stuck with twelve car now I'd say there's no need for more than 2tph, even if the airport grows faster than projected.

 

[Nunners]

The reality is that there was really no need to go to twelve car on all Stansted Express services. Some on Saturdays were still four. It was just a consequence of needing to order more Flirts than the Norwich services use. As they're stuck with twelve car now I'd say there's no need for more than 2tph, even if the airport grows faster than projected.

People are having to arrive at the airports so early now the extra 15 mins won't make any difference (I think the frequency for the intermediate stations is the same as they used to be skip stop?). I've never seen a remotely full Stansted express train.

 

[DelW]

there’s not enough money.

Part of the problem is that currently SWR timetables aren't properly-thought-out ones, they're just 2019 timetables with arbitrary services deleted, leaving uneven service gaps and missing connections in many places.

If the assumption is that the reduced service level is going to be permanent for the foreseeable future, it would be better to revert to something more like the lower frequency but even-interval timetables from the early days of SWT.

 

[DDB]

Part of the problem is that currently SWR timetables aren't properly-thought-out ones, they're just 2019 timetables with arbitrary services deleted, leaving uneven service gaps and missing connections in many places.

If the assumption is that the reduced service level is going to be permanent for the foreseeable future, it would be better to revert to something more like the lower frequency but even-interval timetables from the early days of SWT.

The same thing happened at EMR. They made quick temporary cuts and haven't revisited them despite them lasting over a year.

 

[ChrisC]

The same thing happened at EMR. They made quick temporary cuts and haven't revisited them despite them lasting over a year.

Definitely the case with EMR. Removing trains from the timetable without considering onward connections often results in greatly increased journey times. Mansfield has really been affected with EMR temporary timetables resulting in waits of up to 1 hour for connections in Nottingham. How long do these cuts remain temporary? I still have my doubts that the missing trains will return in December if ever.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Definitely the case with EMR. Removing trains from the timetable without considering onward connections often results in greatly increased journey times. Mansfield has really been affected with EMR temporary timetables resulting in waits of up to 1 hour for connections in Nottingham. How long do these cuts remain temporary? I still have my doubts that the missing trains will return in December if ever.

Yea that happened in Northern land too. A random train service removed here and there leading to missed opportunities for onwards travel somewhere else. Admittedly it is also made worse because Tpexpress and Avanti have issues with cancellations etc. Not just Northern removing trains.

 

[Killingworth]

Yea that happened in Northern land too. A random train service removed here and there leading to missed opportunities for onwards travel somewhere else. Admittedly it is also made worse because Tpexpress and Avanti have issues with cancellations etc. Not just Northern removing trains.

If the journey in one direction is impacted an alternative mode of transport may be used so that's 2 journeys lost to the railway, more if any connections.

 

[The Ham]

Part of the problem is that currently SWR timetables aren't properly-thought-out ones, they're just 2019 timetables with arbitrary services deleted, leaving uneven service gaps and missing connections in many places.

If the assumption is that the reduced service level is going to be permanent for the foreseeable future, it would be better to revert to something more like the lower frequency but even-interval timetables from the early days of SWT.

Arguably it would be better to retain stops/ frequency at the expense of speed of services on most services (for example 1tph semi fast over 2tph but retain the stopping services rather than the other way around).

 

[Goldfish62]

Part of the problem is that currently SWR timetables aren't properly-thought-out ones, they're just 2019 timetables with arbitrary services deleted, leaving uneven service gaps and missing connections in many places.

If the assumption is that the reduced service level is going to be permanent for the foreseeable future, it would be better to revert to something more like the lower frequency but even-interval timetables from the early days of SWT.

Exactly. The current "temporary" timetable is a right mess in places. As you say, it would benefit from a complete rewrite even if not a single additional service is introduced.

 

[liam456]

Is the December 2022 timetable change going to involve a recast of Lumo services on the ECML to reduce pathing time/following stopping LNER services/etc. or does that come later?

 

[dk1]

Is the December 2022 timetable change going to involve a recast of Lumo services on the ECML to reduce pathing time/following stopping LNER services/etc. or does that come later?

Later I think. Possibly May 2023 but don’t hold your breath. Long way off yet.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the December 2022 timetable change going to involve a recast of Lumo services on the ECML to reduce pathing time/following stopping LNER services/etc. or does that come later?

defintley not December. Nor May.