December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Esker-pades]

Yes, plan is for some through services in Dec '22 with the full spec in for May '23.

Could change, of course. But that's the current assumption.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, plan is for some through services in Dec '22 with the full spec in for May '23.

Could change, of course. But that's the current assumption.

No, Andy Lord said specifically through services will be before December. He was at pains to state that introduction as late as December was considered unacceptable. The "before December" deadline is now as hardwired in the project as the "first half of the year" deadline for the opening was.

 

[Snow1964]

No, Andy Lord said specifically through services will be before December. He was at pains to state that introduction as late as December was considered unacceptable. The "before December" deadline is now as hardwired in the project as the "first half of the year" deadline for the opening was.

Correct, aim is to get Bond Street station opened before Oxford Street Christmas busy period, and introduce stage 5b minus on same day (which is 22tph peak, 16th off-peak). Then one final change in May 2023

I believe there were plans afoot, originally for the May 2022 changes, to increase the frequency between Bristol Temple Meads and Gloucester but I think these got pushed back to December '22 instead? A frequency increase between Gloucester and Worcester would also be quite welcome but I don't know if either will (or are planned to) go ahead.

Dave

GWR seem to be having a rolling stock problem, with off-peak and weekend overcrowding on lines in West Wiltshire, Cotswolds, Devon etc. So unless they suddenly decide to put the 769s into service, no idea where stock for these extra trains will come from.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

No, Andy Lord said specifically through services will be before December. He was at pains to state that introduction as late as December was considered unacceptable. The "before December" deadline is now as hardwired in the project as the "first half of the year" deadline for the opening was.

It's not up to TfL when through services start. It's up to Network rail.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's not up to TfL when through services start. It's up to Network rail.

And you don't think that Network Rail and TfL talk to each other? The grown-ups are involved here, not a bunch of TOCs vying for space.

Through services are planned to start before December.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Of course they do, but just because the COO TfL says something doesn't actually mean anything. I suspect that he is trying to put pressure on NR by making those statements.

 

[Goldfish62]

Of course they do, but just because the COO TfL says something doesn't actually mean anything. I suspect that he is trying to put pressure on NR by making those statements.

It does mean something. The pledge is on the same basis as the opening date. He's not going to make that pledge unless he's sure it's achievable and that will have undoubtedly have involved working with NR. TfL has been working closely with NR throughout the project.

Through working will happen before December.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Considering what some other users on here who I know are very high up at NR are saying about it, I'm willing to take your bet on that.

 

[Goldfish62]

Considering what some other users on here who I know are very high up at NR are saying about it, I'm willing to take your bet on that.

You're on! Let's revisit in the autumn.

The SWR Dec 22 timetable consultation was mentioned recently. It's still on the website:

Train Timetable | South Western Railway

Our timetables can be downloaded direct to your computer or mobile phone, giving you easy access to the information wherever you are.

www.southwesternrailway.com

December 2022: Timetable Consultation​

Our stakeholder consultation for the December 2022 timetable specification​

In partnership with Network Rail and the Department for Transport, we have launched a stakeholder consultation on proposals for our December 2022 timetable. This is a strategic review of future service levels across our network.
We are acutely aware that in the past we have responded to ever growing customer demand by increasing the number of trains on the SWR network, often at the expense of the performance and reliability of our services. But, as we emerge from the Covid-19 pandemic, we have a unique opportunity to build back a better railway for the future.
Since March 2020, we have been supported by the Government to run a reduced service that has kept key workers moving. This period has shown that our performance improves significantly when we are able to run fewer trains while still meeting customer demand for our services.
Even though passengers are now returning to the railways, all the forecasts suggest they will not return to pre-Covid levels for the foreseeable future. The December 2022 timetable is our opportunity to plan for a long-term timetable that will retain the reliability improvements we’ve made, meet the forecast demand and provide value for the taxpayer while balancing other local and national priorities.
We are considering a specification for services rather than specific trains or a timetable. It is for that reason that we are consulting with a defined set of organisations, which have a strategic or representative role rather than the wider community. This includes all MPs and district and county councillors across our network, as well as passenger groups amongst others.
You can find out more about our plans by reviewing our consultation document (PDF, 2MB), which sets out the context to our approach, details of the proposed specification of services, and more information about the consultation. If you have any questions, you can email us at [email protected].

I can't see this being introduced in December as it relies on the 701s being introduced (no chance it seems!) and SWR doesn't have enough stock to operate the current timetable, let alone the additional services proposed. That'll be a shame as the current timetable is a bit of a mess being a relic of the May 2004 timetable, and really needs scrapping. There are gaps and variations from clockface times that appear to make no sense but were obviously introduced in haste when Covid reductions kicked in.

So I think this will be kicked over to May 2023 or beyond.

 

[Basil Jet]

Of course they do, but just because the COO TfL says something doesn't actually mean anything. I suspect that he is trying to put pressure on NR by making those statements.

Put pressure on NR to do what?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Put pressure on NR to do what?

I could very easily be chatting nonsense, but it may be to put pressure on them for them to authorise the full running of Crossrail earlier than is currently anticipated.

 

[Basil Jet]

I could very easily be chatting nonsense, but it may be to put pressure on them for them to authorise the full running of Crossrail earlier than is currently anticipated.

I would imagine NR has already given them all the paths east and west to run the full service tomorrow, if Crossrail were ready to run it.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can categorically tell you that the "joining up" of the full line is planned for before this December. That's a quote from Andy Lord, COO TfL.

planend it might be, decided it is not.

It's not up to TfL when through services start. It's up to Network rail.

both have to say ‘Go’

And you don't think that Network Rail and TfL talk to each other? The grown-ups are involved here, not a bunch of TOCs vying for space.

Through services are planned to start before December.

Through working will happen before December.

I do admire your confidence! I’m not willing to take a bet on it yet.

I would imagine NR has already given them all the paths east and west to run the full service tomorrow, if Crossrail were ready to run it.

the paths have long since been arranged. Whether they are used or not has yet to be decided.

 

[172007]

Any changes on the cards for WMR?

They should have cleared the training backlog and the 730’s should be coming online by December.

I’m aware of issues relating to the new Camp Hill Line service that will prevent the Cross City Line going back to 6tph, but they should be able to do 4tph to Lichfield City with one extra diagram.

Birmingham - Northampton will be dependent upon the WCML re-write.

Not sure how many other services will be going back to a (near enough) pre pandemic services.

WMR are strongly rumoured to have changes on the Snow Hill lines.

Rumours are that from Snow Hill services will run every half hour in the Dorridge and Whitlocks End directions and then logicaly then there will be 15 minute gaps towards Stourbridge Jct. This will remove the rather large gaps in the timetable south of Snow Hill. Apparently Chilton need to re-time some of their services to slot in.

It's effectively now clear a long term 4 trains an hour between Snow Hill and Kidderminster will operate.

 

[The Planner]

WMR are strongly rumoured to have changes on the Snow Hill lines.

Rumours are that from Snow Hill services will run every half hour in the Dorridge and Whitlocks End directions and then logicaly then there will be 15 minute gaps towards Stourbridge Jct. This will remove the rather large gaps in the timetable south of Snow Hill. Apparently Chilton need to re-time some of their services to slot in.

It's effectively now clear a long term 4 trains an hour between Snow Hill and Kidderminster will operate.

Snow Hill recast is meant to be May 23.

 

[Bigbru]

planend it might be, decided it is not.



both have to say ‘Go’





I do admire your confidence! I’m not willing to take a bet on it yet.




the paths have long since been arranged. Whether they are used or not has yet to be decided.

The GWML paths were retimed in the May22 change to fit the through running timetable. It's all about reliability now.

 

[AJS90]

Snow Hill recast is meant to be May 23.

Any idea what this will entail?

 

[Bald Rick]

The GWML paths were retimed in the May22 change to fit the through running timetable. It's all about reliability now.

the paths are in the right place in the timetable, but for obvious reasons the paths are not the exact right paths!

 

[vladstoick]

This is some stuff for Southeastern for December

• Orpington-Cannon Street stoppers no longer call at Lewisham
• Sevenoaks-Charing Cross will additionally call at Lewisham
• 4TPH Orpington-Victoria in the peak

Do you know if orpington will still keep its fast trains to London?

 

[ScotGG]

I wonder if more trains to Abbey Wood to link with Elizabeth Line?

Then again maybe a mass reduction in trains like seen on Southern with 455s going meaning cuts across the board?

 

[Fidelis]

Snow Hill recast is meant to be May 23.

At the Avanti Timetable event this Tuesday the Midlands Grand Rail Collaboration showed WMT proposals for the Snow Hill line details from the slide below.
Snow Hill Lines (May 2023)
December 2022
• No significant change planned

May 2023
• While remaining at 4tph a more robust timetable will be introduced
• Kidderminster terminating services become semi-fast
• Worcester terminating services become all stations (presumably not from Stourbridge Junction to Snowhill as this would increase journey times to Birmingham from Worcester)
• 1tph Worcester terminator will be direct to Foregate Street, the other will terminate at Foregate Street via Shrub Hill
• Dorridge and Whitlocks End routes will be retimed to 30 minute intervals rather than 20/40
• Improved integration with Chiltern services giving improved service for Solihull

 

[172007]

At the Avanti Timetable event this Tuesday the Midlands Grand Rail Collaboration showed WMT proposals for the Snow Hill line details from the slide below.
Snow Hill Lines (May 2023)
December 2022
• No significant change planned

May 2023
• While remaining at 4tph a more robust timetable will be introduced
• Kidderminster terminating services become semi-fast
• Worcester terminating services become all stations (presumably not from Stourbridge Junction to Snowhill as this would increase journey times to Birmingham from Worcester)
• 1tph Worcester terminator will be direct to Foregate Street, the other will terminate at Foregate Street via Shrub Hill
• Dorridge and Whitlocks End routes will be retimed to 30 minute intervals rather than 20/40
• Improved integration with Chiltern services giving improved service for Solihull

My information is that the Worcester's will be all stops, I.e Langley Green, Old Hill etc. The increase in journey time is largely irrelevant as the vast majority of customers from Worcester and Droitwich will wait for a New Street rather than a Snow Hill lines service.

 

[FManc]

Avanti West Coast
Manchester to London trains will pick up additional hourly stops at either Stafford, Nuneaton or Rugby (I imagine the 1tph via Crewe will do the Stafford call with the 2tph via Stoke picking up either Nuneaton or Rugby) with minor extension to journey times.

 

[BoroAndy]

So what will the full set of routes be for TPE?

 

[30907]

Do you know if orpington will still keep its fast trains to London?

AFAIK - is there any reason why not?

 

[CJ]

So what will the full set of routes be for TPE?

It's looking like it will be (subject to change):

Liverpool - York
Liverpool - Hull
Liverpool - Cleethorpes
Liverpool - Glasgow
Manchester Victoria - Newcastle
Manchester Piccadilly - Scarborough
Manchester Airport - Saltburn
Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh
Newcastle - Edinburgh
Manchester - Huddersfield
Huddersfield - Leeds

 

[Some guy]

Avanti West Coast
Manchester to London trains will pick up additional hourly stops at either Stafford, Nuneaton or Rugby (I imagine the 1tph via Crewe will do the Stafford call with the 2tph via Stoke picking up either Nuneaton or Rugby) with minor extension to journey times.

That’s interesting. Is there anything about the London- Birmingham- Glasgow services?

 

[Watershed]

That’s interesting. Is there anything about the London- Birmingham- Glasgow services?

The paths have been reserved (to allow for them potentially to be reintroduced in future) but in December they will continue to run as per today, i.e. alternating Blackpool North and Edinburgh services.

 

[The Planner]

That’s interesting. Is there anything about the London- Birmingham- Glasgow services?

xx.40 off Euston.

 

[geoffk]

It's looking like it will be (subject to change):

Liverpool - York
Liverpool - Hull
Liverpool - Cleethorpes
Liverpool - Glasgow
Manchester Victoria - Newcastle
Manchester Piccadilly - Scarborough
Manchester Airport - Saltburn
Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh

The Ordsall Chord has become a bit of a white elephant, with just one tph. All these presumably hourly except Liverpool - Glasgow.

Also a Newcastle - Edinburgh semi-fast?