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December 2023 Timetable Change

infobleep

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Yes, but delivered by using existing resources more effectively. The number of units required to run the current off-peak service is seven, because the Redhill stopper got slowed up as part of the 3tph plan. The number of units to run all services through to Gatwick remains seven, just a bit of extra fuel.
But it will be additional millage on the units and maintaince, which is a cost. Obviously not a big one it seems.

So the best thing that could happen with SWR is a timetable recast if they are unwilling to allow more units to run. I'm not about to suggest how this is done as that is speculation.
 
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JonathanH

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But it will be additional millage on the units, which is a cost. Obviously not a big one.
Yes, no doubt.

However, it is fairly clear to anyone who travels regularly on the North Downs Line east of Guildford that the trains that go through to Gatwick have much more demand than those which terminate at Redhill, so guess that 2tph to Gatwick has a positive business case, despite the additional mileage.

That additional daily mileage isn't much more than one round trip from London to Portsmouth.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Yes, no doubt.

However, it is fairly clear to anyone who travels regularly on the North Downs Line east of Guildford that the trains that go through to Gatwick have much more demand than those which terminate at Redhill, so guess that 2tph to Gatwick has a positive business case, despite the additional mileage.

That additional daily mileage isn't much more than one round trip from London to Portsmouth.

GWR is indeed having to offset the additional mileage between Redhill and Gatwick by savings elsewhere. You will see off-peak on Weekdays the Didcot to Oxford turbo shuttle is reduced to hourly.

And yet they are allowing 2 trains an hour to Gatwick Airport in the next timetable change.

If they won't allow additional trains then surely they would allow SWR to recast the timetable so that Guildford gets two fast trains an hour to Clapham Junction off park Monday to Saturday, to match how it is on Sundays.

The timetable needs to be recast as currently, fast trains from Guilddord at x19 and x49 cannot stop at Clapham Junction due to other trains running too closely behind them.

Recasting the SWR mainline is not a simple job which comes at a cost.
 

infobleep

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GWR is indeed having to offset the additional mileage between Redhill and Gatwick by savings elsewhere. You will see off-peak on Weekdays the Didcot to Oxford turbo shuttle is reduced to hourly.
As someone once write on here, there will always be winners and losers.
Recasting the SWR mainline is not a simple job which comes at a cost.
I do appreciate it isn't a simple job to recast the timetable. I'm just keen to see 2 fast trains an hour from Guildford to Clapham Junction, 7 days a week.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Yes, no doubt.

However, it is fairly clear to anyone who travels regularly on the North Downs Line east of Guildford that the trains that go through to Gatwick have much more demand than those which terminate at Redhill, so guess that 2tph to Gatwick has a positive business case, despite the additional mileage.

That additional daily mileage isn't much more than one round trip from London to Portsmouth.
Airport traffic has massively increased this summer although big part of the problem along here isn't so much seating capacity as somewhere to put the luggage people seem to want to take with them. Personally rather than levying air passenger duty they should charge by the size of bags anyhow going off topic. This line must be a good income earner as people have to by open returns rather than cheaper day returns but still miles cheaper than the long term parking at Gatwick so as with Stansted boosting frequency will boost revenue.
 

Minstral25

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Yes, no doubt.

However, it is fairly clear to anyone who travels regularly on the North Downs Line east of Guildford that the trains that go through to Gatwick have much more demand than those which terminate at Redhill, so guess that 2tph to Gatwick has a positive business case, despite the additional mileage.

That additional daily mileage isn't much more than one round trip from London to Portsmouth.

Depends on time of day - some of the stoppers arrive at Redhill very full with lots of passengers getting off. However the Gatwick services are better loaded throughout the day rather than at odd times like the stoppers.

Really pleased that GWR have taken local rail users thoughts into consideration and built this much better timetable with its more regular clockface basis that has enabled two trains per hour to Gatwick all day. Hope it proves beneficial to all users along the line.

Just need to get the missing train after 11pm from Guildford to Gatwick now. 22:21 to 00:23 is a big miss, especially for Theatre and Gig goers returning from Guildford Venues to Dorking and Redhill.
 

Verulamius

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I note that St Albans City is getting an additional fast service to London at 7.48.

This means that there is the full pre covid timetable for London bound trains during the very high peak from 7.30 to 8.15.
 

infobleep

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Airport traffic has massively increased this summer although big part of the problem along here isn't so much seating capacity as somewhere to put the luggage people seem to want to take with them. Personally rather than levying air passenger duty they should charge by the size of bags anyhow going off topic. This line must be a good income earner as people have to by open returns rather than cheaper day returns but still miles cheaper than the long term parking at Gatwick so as with Stansted boosting frequency will boost revenue.
Contrast that with how long it took them to bring back the Gatwick Airport services following the original lockdown. Getting anywhere took time.

I did at least find some cheaper train tickets as a result, which I then made use of back then. So a silver lining, resulting in them making less money.

I can't wait to make use of the December timetable as I regularly change trains at Gatwick Airport and now I won't need to change at Redhill and Horley, as I have been doing whenever I needed to arrive at a particular time on a weekday evening.
 

DanNCL

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Quite the opposite of the feared cuts, Chester-le-Street appears to be getting a service uplift in December with the station finally getting an hourly service for most of the day.
 

Some guy

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Having a scroll through RTT it seems Avanti may be planning to run one service class 800 service north of Preston to Lancaster and back to London

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C02201/2023-12-11/detailed

There’s also a later service which starts at preston and only stops and Nuneaton and Milton Keynes
 

Anvil1984

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Having a scroll through RTT it seems Avanti may be planning to run one service class 800 service north of Preston to Lancaster and back to London

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C02201/2023-12-11/detailed

There’s also a later service which starts at preston and only stops and Nuneaton and Milton Keynes

It’s a class 3 so non-passenger (empty coaching stock). May be in there for training runs or other purposes
 

Bletchleyite

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Furious that 3tph VT to Birmingham still isn’t returning

It is. Just instead of it being 20 minutes apart with each one calling at either Rugby, MKC or Watford, it's two fasts (not stopping south of Coventry) and one semifast (stopping at all three of Rugby, MKC and Watford).

I think on balance that's better connectivity-wise, and has also allowed better pathing of the 2tph semifast LNR service.

It can't however return until enough 807s are in service.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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It is. Just instead of it being 20 minutes apart with each one calling at either Rugby, MKC or Watford, it's two fasts (not stopping south of Coventry) and one semifast (stopping at all three of Rugby, MKC and Watford).

I think on balance that's better connectivity-wise, and has also allowed better pathing of the 2tph semifast LNR service.

It can't however return until enough 807s are in service.
Yes I know exactly how it’s planned to work, and I like the idea, I’m just annoyed that it doesn’t show to be running from December unless you count a weeny section 1530-1730.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes I know exactly how it’s planned to work, and I like the idea, I’m just annoyed that it doesn’t show to be running from December unless you count a weeny section 1530-1730.

Possibly not yet enough 807s are likely to be accepted, so the services will be added once they are and once proven reliable. Give them chance.

You could I suppose argue for them to have kept on Voyagers and use those, but as a user from MKC I'd rather the present arrangement than overcrowded 5-car Voyagers which is what would result.
 

yorksrob

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The stoppers are full and standing at peak times. Unless they are all run as 6 carriages, abstraction of through passengers will simply move the overcrowding around.

I agree that running stoppers through Huddersfield has impacted on punctuality in the past (as has running them west of Manchester, from Southport, Blackpool North and Llandudno in the 30 plus years I have been using the route).
However, there will be fewer fasts, so that may be less of a problem than might otherwise have been the case. It appears that the stoppers from Manchester to Huddersfield will then run fast, first stop Leeds or Kirkgate.

Having an hourly stopper go through Wakefield Kirkgate to Leeds shouldn't impact punctuality that much. They should all stop at Wakefield at least, as Wakefield and the Five Towns suffer comparatively poor connections from York and the North, particularly in the evenings.

Attached is the 1st draft of table 039 in the December NRT, but as always at this early stage it WILL change before final publication

Looking at this timetable, there doesn't appear to be anything past the late afternoon calling at Wakefield. Is this because the trains won't be routed that way, or is Wakefield being missed out ?
 
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mangyiscute

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GWR is indeed having to offset the additional mileage between Redhill and Gatwick by savings elsewhere. You will see off-peak on Weekdays the Didcot to Oxford turbo shuttle is reduced to hourly.
I would argue that since you now have the fast trains from London to Oxford stopping at Didcot, running the shuttle on this side of the hour makes no sense, when most passengers will just take the faster, slightly earlier train anyway. The other side of the hour can pick up the calls at Culham, Radley and Appleford, which also results in a nice even hourly timetable for those stops (or 2-hourly for Appleford), so this is smart usage of resources imo.

The only odd thing that this causes, is that to make sure the turbos are used efficiently, the Didcot calls on the Oxford to London services are now in the services that come from Worcester, and the service that starts in Oxford calls at Reading and Paddington only - not ideal, but I still think this is for the better since it frees up a unit for elsewhere on the network, that was previously not being of much use.

I am also impressed at the Reading to Gatwick journey times - they look like they are roughly 1h30, when the "fast" service currently takes 1h25 anyway - I'm sure every single passenger will welcome 2tph even if it means a service that takes 5 mins longer.
 

3RDGEN

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Having an hourly stopper go through Wakefield Kirkgate to Leeds shouldn't impact punctuality that much. They should all stop at Wakefield at least, as Wakefield and the Five Towns suffer comparatively poor connections from York and the North, particularly in the evenings.



Looking at this timetable, there doesn't appear to be anything past the late afternoon calling at Wakefield. Is this because the trains won't be routed that way, or is Wakefield being missed out ?
There's only four services each way a day, two morning and two late afternoon;


There route knowledge runs for Church Fenton - Castleford - Wakefield Kirkgate - Mirfield used during engineering works. They provide a limited passenger service so Northern can stop the current bus replacements, looking at the timings they can easily be cancelled Hudds - York without affecting the Hudds - Manchester stoppers.
 

yorksrob

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There's only four services each way a day, two morning and two late afternoon;


There route knowledge runs for Church Fenton - Castleford - Wakefield Kirkgate - Mirfield used during engineering works. They provide a limited passenger service so Northern can stop the current bus replacements, looking at the timings they can easily be cancelled Hudds - York without affecting the Hudds - Manchester stoppers.

Ah thanks. A bit of a lost opportunity perhaps, given TPE is usually a fairly clockface operation.
 

DelW

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I am also impressed at the Reading to Gatwick journey times - they look like they are roughly 1h30, when the "fast" service currently takes 1h25 anyway - I'm sure every single passenger will welcome 2tph even if it means a service that takes 5 mins longer.
Agreed, it looks a more logical structure, with a much better service for Gatwick passengers and very little if any detrimental effect for local users. If travelling to or from Gatwick it was an annoyance that if you just missed the direct train, the poor Southern connection at Redhill meant that using the Redhill terminator was little better than waiting an hour for the next through service. At certain times of day the Redhill train seemed to lay over at Reading for extended periods too, which might now have been eliminated.

Let's hope it works reliably in practice.
 

Kite159

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Furious?
At the moment demand is still lagging on the Birmingham route compared to Manchesters.

I presume due to the competition between paying less for LNR or Chiltern for a longer journey time. Whereas London - Manchester is still a bit niche with the LNR+TfW only cheap tickets
 

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