Derailment between Hersham & Walton on Thames (04/03)

[Bald Rick]

Back in the old BR days who knows what kind of incidents they were covering up.

And more to the point that incidents like these were so common (daily!) that people were dealing with them very regularly.

 

[infobleep]

And more to the point that incidents like these were so common (daily!) that people were dealing with them very regularly.

Why it's a good thing that safety has vastily improved since then.

 

[cygnus44]

Often without route knowledge.



Thankfully, knowing where you are going, what speed the line is, and which route indicator you can take is seen as somewhat of a priority.



They would have phoned the local to see if anyone was available and generally sober. Someone may have been called in, got paid 12hrs for it.



Sometimes the Guard or the Secondman would drive.




Thankfully



Hopefully never.


BR was not as great as people like to remember. They were notoriously bad with delays, cancellations, and trains had a terrible reputation.

Not as bad as now, wrong kind of this and that

I do not know what period of BR days you are referring to but it certainly wasn't my experience. Yes, there was broader route knowledge because staff tended to work a wider range of services but excursions to places staff didn't normally go would require crew changes or route conductors, which were much more readily available then than now for various reasons.

Yes, a Traction Inspector could act as a route conductor but so could any driver who signed the route.

Where TIs came into their own was where NO drivers signed a route (yes, it could happen - for example on a line which was out of use but had a weedkiller visit once a year).

And steam is unlikely to return ...

Well people got to work most days. What happened between Bournemouth and Weymouth that day, nothing moved due to an incident 100 miles away. As for the steam i was being sarcastic.

 

[Somewhere]

Not as bad as now, wrong kind of this and that


Well people got to work most days. What happened between Bournemouth and Weymouth that day, nothing moved due to an incident 100 miles away. As for the steam i was being sarcastic.

Back in the day, staff locally would have set up a service. Station Supervisors liaising with Train Crew Supervisors and the Signallers.
These days there isn't the knowledge, experience or authority for anything like that to happen. Control cannot physically deal with everything everywhere, so things simply don't happen anymore

 

[Towers]

Back in the day, staff locally would have set up a service. Station Supervisors liaising with Train Crew Supervisors and the Signallers.
These days there isn't the knowledge, experience or authority for anything like that to happen. Control cannot physically deal with everything everywhere, so things simply don't happen anymore

It has also been stated several times here that the WICC (Control) was ‘severely short staffed’, impacting the extent of any contingency that was able to be put together. Save for an outbreak of infectious disease in the office, you might wonder as to how a major London commuter TOC finds itself in that position.

 

[Falcon1200]

Save for an outbreak of infectious disease in the office, you might wonder as to how a major London commuter TOC finds itself in that position.

Might a number of Control staff have been delayed getting to work by the very incident they were needed to deal with?!!

 

[Somewhere]

It has also been stated several times here that the WICC (Control) was ‘severely short staffed’, impacting the extent of any contingency that was able to be put together. Save for an outbreak of infectious disease in the office, you might wonder as to how a major London commuter TOC finds itself in that position.

Indeed. No one single reason. A culmination of various different things all combining together

 

[35B]

Back in the day, staff locally would have set up a service. Station Supervisors liaising with Train Crew Supervisors and the Signallers.
These days there isn't the knowledge, experience or authority for anything like that to happen. Control cannot physically deal with everything everywhere, so things simply don't happen anymore

And therein lies the problem. Incidents will happen; the quality of the operation can be measured in how it recovers service after an incident.

There will be many valid and detailed reasons why recovery didn't happen; they will not matter to the paying punters whose days were disrupted by the poor service offered, who will just see the cancellations and delays that they suffered.

Unfortunately, the only viable conclusion is that today's railway lacks resiliency.

 

[Snow1964]

Might a number of Control staff have been delayed getting to work by the very incident they were needed to deal with?!!

But that shows lack of contingency planning, if the staff who deal with it, do not have contingency methods of getting to work. Or a back up location they can also operate from if main location is not reachable.

We live in a world where phones to give instructions operate almost anywhere, and track plans can be called up on laptop computers just about anywhere also, so unless control means physically pushing buttons or moving levers & switches, fairly weak argument.

 

[Falcon1200]

Contingency plans should be pre-prepared thats the point of them and they certainly used to exist for all reasonable scenarios. So yesterdays incident should have had an off the shelf response.

Contingency Plans can only ever generalise on the level of service that should be strived for, they cannot possibly detail every single set and traincrew diagram, and timetable alteration, that should immediately be implemented for every conceivable scenario.

But that shows lack of contingency planning, if the staff who deal with it, do not have contingency methods of getting to work. Or a back up location they can also operate from if main location is not reachable.

The only time a back-up Control location was arranged in my time was for the Y2K panic! Apart from anything else where would such a location be, such that all staff could still reach it in times of disruption?

so unless control means physically pushing buttons or moving levers & switches, fairly weak argument.

Not in the slightest; Railway Control work entails far more than making phone calls, not least constant dialogue between staff within the office. Doing the job alone, remotely, is a non-starter.

 

[pompeyfan]

Not in the slightest; Railway Control work entails far more than making phone calls, not least constant dialogue between staff within the office. Doing the job alone, remotely, is a non-starter.

Hence why even during the darkest parts of COVID, control still had all its usual persons in.

I understand the shortage was due to a combination of vacancies in the roster, sickness, and people unable to get to work.

I do wonder whether this makes a strong argument for an AOM type role to help take up some of the pressure, similar to what they have on GWR.

Let’s not lose track of the fact that Basingstoke control (who look after most of the service groups affected Monday) have 20+ trains per hour to look after managed by usually 2 people. Although there are usually 30+ in the office, only 2 of them are able to make decisions on the train service.

 

[Somewhere]

But that shows lack of contingency planning, if the staff who deal with it, do not have contingency methods of getting to work. Or a back up location they can also operate from if main location is not reachable.

We live in a world where phones to give instructions operate almost anywhere, and track plans can be called up on laptop computers just about anywhere also, so unless control means physically pushing buttons or moving levers & switches, fairly weak argument.

A Control is a very complicated environment. Its not like a call centre where you're dealing with one person on the end of a phone at a time. You're often having to have multiple conversations at the same time with several different persons

 

[CarrotPie]

A Control is a very complicated environment. Its not like a call centre where you're dealing with one person on the end of a phone at a time. You're often having to have multiple conversations at the same time with several different persons

So just like a call centre then!

 

[Somewhere]

So just like a call centre then!

But I notice whenever I call a call centre these days they're working from home, so obviously not!

 

[cygnus44]

So get more staff

 

[Deepgreen]

And therein lies the problem. Incidents will happen; the quality of the operation can be measured in how it recovers service after an incident.

There will be many valid and detailed reasons why recovery didn't happen; they will not matter to the paying punters whose days were disrupted by the poor service offered, who will just see the cancellations and delays that they suffered.

Unfortunately, the only viable conclusion is that today's railway lacks resiliency.

Absolutely, and the easy option is taken - to stop the job and possibly provide buses, but probably not. Privatisation incentives were to pare to the bone and have no spare anything to provide that resilience. Efficiency does necessarily equate to the bare minimum.

 

[12LDA28C]

So get more staff

Brilliant. Wonder why nobody's thought of that already?

 

[D6130]

Brilliant. Wonder why nobody's thought of that already?

Possibly because it's not that easy to instantly recruit staff with the necessary operating experience and knowledge....and, unfortunately the current set-up of the railway doesn't provide such a training ground for the numbers of people involved or interested?

 

[Somewhere]

So get more staff

Doubt you'd find that many people willing to do the job, even if the money were available

 

[WAB]

I do wonder whether this makes a strong argument for an AOM type role to help take up some of the pressure, similar to what they have on GWR.

Could you elaborate on what this role involves?

 

[D6130]

Doubt you'd find that many people willing to do the job, even if the money were available

Exactly....it's extremely intensive and stressful when the brown stuff hits the fan - and requires a huge knowledge of all the different aspects of railway operations, from track geography to train and crew diagramming and everything else in between.

 

[pompeyfan]

Could you elaborate on what this role involves?

It stands for Area Operations Manager. From what I can tell they incorporate some of the “Train Crew supervisor” roles from BR times. Essentially they are responsible for the smooth operations in their area, looking ahead at crew and stock displacement. They can also (with permission from control) arrange shuttle services. @JN114 may be able to expand further

 

[tiptoptaff]

It stands for Area Operations Manager. From what I can tell they incorporate some of the “Train Crew supervisor” roles from BR times. Essentially they are responsible for the smooth operations in their area, looking ahead at crew and stock displacement. They can also (with permission from control) arrange shuttle services. @JN114 may be able to expand further

The AOM role isn't necessarily going to help, and they work differently at different locations - can't speak for what they do in @JN114 's part of the GW, but where I covered and worked, we had them at Bristol TM and Exeter.

They did very different jobs. At Exeter, they did exactly what you describe. During day to day running and disruption, they'd handle traincrew and units locally, run the Devon Metro, sort out services towards places elsewhere etc. and then just tell us in Control what they'd done/were doing. Led to us jokingly nicknaming it the "Exeter Private Railway." But it was fine as you could let them handle it for the most part.

At Bristol it was very different. The station was much larger and much busier with a much more varied service pattern. And whilst they may be able to handle disruptions to the Severn Beach line, they spent more time just keeping the operation of the station running smoothly. There was too much for them to do to have them be able to manage disruption instead of Control. When I was spare/shed I would spend a lot of time in their office on the phone to them doing moves in and around the station, to/from the depot, just to keep things running smoothly, clear platforms etc.

However, they have to take in to account the wider impact to the rest of the railway of doing what they're doing. And they're very good at making sure they don't impede on the big picture.

So yes they can help, but they wouldn't necessarily have solved the issues of running shuttle services. They may have got a few to run, but it wouldn't have been much.

 

[infobleep]

But that shows lack of contingency planning, if the staff who deal with it, do not have contingency methods of getting to work. Or a back up location they can also operate from if main location is not reachable.

We live in a world where phones to give instructions operate almost anywhere, and track plans can be called up on laptop computers just about anywhere also, so unless control means physically pushing buttons or moving levers & switches, fairly weak argument.

I disagree. Many a time I don't have fast enough mobile data if any at all to do any work.

The latest one was on the Eurostar from St Pancras to Lille in France. In the end I gave up.

It stands for Area Operations Manager. From what I can tell they incorporate some of the “Train Crew supervisor” roles from BR times. Essentially they are responsible for the smooth operations in their area, looking ahead at crew and stock displacement. They can also (with permission from control) arrange shuttle services. @JN114 may be able to expand further

There was shuttle services between Guildford and Woking.

Some were shown in the National Rail Enquries journey planner app as:
on time
having had a time they actually ran
Cancelled
And I think poaaibly not shown at all but ran

 

[12LDA28C]

Possibly because it's not that easy to instantly recruit staff with the necessary operating experience and knowledge....and, unfortunately the current set-up of the railway doesn't provide such a training ground for the numbers of people involved or interested?

Well yes, exactly and that was rather my point. It's not really as simple as 'get more staff'.

 

[43096]

Unfortunately, the only viable conclusion is that today's railway lacks resiliency.

It’s more than that, though. There is a pervasive “can’t do” attitude problem.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Well yes, exactly and that was rather my point. It's not really as simple as 'get more staff'.

Also for times when nothing is going on some might complain they’re overstaffed

 

[Defiance149]

Safety bulletin issued by Network Rail

At 05.50 on Monday 4th March 2024, a passenger train struck scrap rail travelling on the Up Fast line on the four track railway at Walton-on-Thames.

This caused the front bogie of the train to partially derail. No passengers on the train were injured. Following the event, all lines were blocked to allow the safe evacuation of passengers. The derailment caused significant damage to the infrastructure. A few minutes before this incident, a train reported striking an object (at the time reported as a possible branch or piece of wood) on the adjacent Up Slow line.

This was the third train in the Up direction following weekend engineering works, and the first on the Up Fast line. The works undertaken at the weekend included tamping, ballasting and scrap clearance. The location where the train struck the scrap rail was on a rail road access point (RRAP). This had been used at the weekend as part of a track renewal follow up. The scrap recovery was completed 26 hours prior to the event.

The incident is under investigation by the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) and Network Rail. While the investigation takes place, it is important to remember the requirements for lineside materials. Always keep your work area tidy and neve

 

[Deepgreen]

Safety bulletin issued by Network Rail

At 05.50 on Monday 4th March 2024, a passenger train struck scrap rail travelling on the Up Fast line on the four track railway at Walton-on-Thames.

This caused the front bogie of the train to partially derail. No passengers on the train were injured. Following the event, all lines were blocked to allow the safe evacuation of passengers. The derailment caused significant damage to the infrastructure. A few minutes before this incident, a train reported striking an object (at the time reported as a possible branch or piece of wood) on the adjacent Up Slow line.

This was the third train in the Up direction following weekend engineering works, and the first on the Up Fast line. The works undertaken at the weekend included tamping, ballasting and scrap clearance. The location where the train struck the scrap rail was on a rail road access point (RRAP). This had been used at the weekend as part of a track renewal follow up. The scrap recovery was completed 26 hours prior to the event.

The incident is under investigation by the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) and Network Rail. While the investigation takes place, it is important to remember the requirements for lineside materials. Always keep your work area tidy and neve

Hmm - looks like a piece of rail was dropped/left as the clear-up was completed (in the dark?) and then got pushed from its resting place to another spot on the up fast by an up slow line working. I find the last reminder rather mild and bland considering the very high likelihood of a major accident arising from slack working of this sort. Frankly, I am very surprised this hasn't happened before, given the vast amount of scrap rail left lying around.

 

[skyhigh]

I find the last reminder rather mild and bland considering the very high likelihood of a major accident arising from slack working of this sort.

It's not actually the end of the bulletin. It does continue.