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DfT Considering removing first class seats on the HS2 train spec to increase capacity

yorksrob

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They're all using the same lines between Handsacre and Manchester Piccadilly? More trains could run from Rugby to London Euston but not Manchester.


They would be swamped though if they served all intermediates because the HS2 service can't get to Euston.

There would presumably be a need to recreate the connections between Manchester and the points on the WCML, so this should surely be a priority.

1tph classic line is likely though you'd have to price people onto it.



Indeed, it'd be no bigger a job than the Liverpool Lime St rebuild.

A more budget option could be popular, particularly given the Governments plans for IC travel (i.e. LNER price trial).
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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It's an interesting idea. Chiltern doesn't have First Class (other than the silver sets where it's declassified), and for Manchester the journey times are very much comparable with Chiltern to Brum. One could argue only the Glasgows really justify it.
Chiltern is not the flagship service to Birmingham by any means.
 

Energy

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and here we have the problem!

Two 200m sets =

2 first class section
2 buffets
2 kitchens
2 trolley spaces

On every 400m service!
The HS2 rolling stock specifications lists the options as:

  • Catering trolley with storage point
  • Cafe-shop (has a convection oven, more storage, chilled storage, and a hot drinks machine)
  • Catering kiosk (only chilled storage for drinks, some storage for snacks, and a hot drinks machine).

These aren't all required but the options that must be presented. With original full HS2 I'd imagine Cafe-shop and (possibly) catering trolley on the classic sets and just a catering kiosk (or nothing) on the captive sets.
 

leytongabriel

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From London and Birmingham, the short journey times on HS2 means that you could probably get away three abreast seating with a drink and a snack such as some biscuits in First Class.
Please don't try. Have you seen how people do anything to avoid the middle 'sandwich filling' seat? We are getting bigger and wider too which makes a nonsense of the three abreast seat width. Not popular on the Portsmouth Direct line so can't imagine it going down well on HS2. Imagine the headlines about billions being spent on 'sardine trains'.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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From places like Solihull (as posh as the Midlands get) it is.

Indeed Chiltern serves some of the poshest and most expensive places in the country.
You said Chiltern to "Brum," not Solihull, and one can hardly compare the demand of Solihull with that of Manchester.
 

Bletchleyite

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Please don't try. Have you seen how people do anything to avoid the middle 'sandwich filling' seat? We are getting bigger and wider too which makes a nonsense of the three abreast seat width. Not popular on the Portsmouth Direct line so can't imagine it going down well on HS2. Imagine the headlines about billions being spent on 'sardine trains'.

I don't think they meant 3+2. Not in First Class anyway!

If Standard was like Lumo to pack the seats in you might get away with a lower density 2+2 First (Standard Premium?) though.
 
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Energy

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From places like Solihull (as posh as the Midlands get) it is.

Indeed Chiltern serves some of the poshest and most expensive places in the country.
For Solihull, Warwick, Leamington and Banbury its the only direct option. It is a good service but its still a turbostar, Pendolinos are really the flagship till HS2 comes along.
 

Starmill

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I don't think they meant 3+2. Not in First Class anyway!

If Standard was like Lumo to pack the seats in you might get away with a lower density 2+2 First (Standard Premium?) though.
A 444-style First Class layout with a cheap £10 supplement would probably be very economical, but how popular it would be is another matter. I'd likely pay it to avoid the Lumo-style crush, but only if there were dedicated coaches.
 
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A S Leib

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Currently it's only to serve Coventry and MK (and somewhat Rugby). You can easily do that with a 1tph Wolverhampton and 1tph Edinburgh via Birmingham.
And Watford Junction to / from Birmingham, which could be served by the same.

What was the plan for (semi-)fast calling patterns at Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby and Trent Valley stations when it looked like the eastern leg would be built, and are the current calling pattern plans public?
 

350401

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Lumo trains manage to fit 402 seats into a 130m unit; so I suspect that if the HS2 trains were so specified, you could fit more than the 610 seats in an 11 car pendolino.

My understanding of the proposed service specification is that 1tph “classic” service from Euston to Manchester via Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stoke and Macclesfield will be retained - in addition to the 3 tph HS2 service - this adds 610 seats onto the figures provided in the FT; and means there will be a small net uplift in capacity.
 

A S Leib

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So of the places regularly served by Manchester – London services now, only Wilmslow would lose them; 90,000 passengers per year to / from Euston and Crewe, but 175,000 for Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport. I think the planned journey time for Manchester Airport HS2 to Euston's around an hour compared to ~2:15 from Wilmslow and 40% of households in Cheshire East have at least two cars, so that's unlikely to be a massive issue for many people even if the need to change at Crewe would be.

I wouldn't be surprised if Avanti gets more First Class passengers from Wilmslow than from Stafford or Warrington, although that's just my guess.
 

Meerkat

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The land it would take (basically moving P1-3 onto the car park so the existing central 300m ish platforms can widen and extend to 400) is already railway owned.
The political issue would be that that land is/was earmarked for HS2/NPR wasn’t/isn’t it?
Was that plan at the same track level as Piccadilly - ie could you build new short platforms in a way that they could be incorporated into a HS station at a later date? Tplough where would you send the trains whilst you were rebuilding it for years…….

I still don’t understand why this is a problem when it was always going to happen for many years after phase 1 was complete whilst Phase 2 got built???
 

350401

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The political issue would be that that land is/was earmarked for HS2/NPR wasn’t/isn’t it?
Was that plan at the same track level as Piccadilly - ie could you build new short platforms in a way that they could be incorporated into a HS station at a later date? Tplough where would you send the trains whilst you were rebuilding it for years…….

I still don’t understand why this is a problem when it was always going to happen for many years after phase 1 was complete whilst Phase 2 got built???
Currently, the plan for NPR is identical to what was proposed for phase 2b; the scheme reuses the Airport station, airport tunnel and Piccadilly station, connecting it either side with a new stretch of high speed track. The Hybrid Bill for 2b is in the process of being repurposed for NPR. This is subject to change, depending on what TFGM and other local authorities want - eg a through station. But for now, that is the working assumption.
 
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Starmill

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Lumo trains manage to fit 402 seats into a 130m unit; so I suspect that if the HS2 trains were so specified, you could fit more than the 610 seats in an 11 car pendolino.

My understanding of the proposed service specification is that 1tph “classic” service from Euston to Manchester via Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stoke and Macclesfield will be retained - in addition to the 3 tph HS2 service - this adds 610 seats onto the figures provided in the FT; and means there will be a small net uplift in capacity.
The number of 402 isn't really accurate though because it can't cope with the luggage load of 402 people onboard, and it includes tip-down seats.
 

philosopher

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Please don't try. Have you seen how people do anything to avoid the middle 'sandwich filling' seat? We are getting bigger and wider too which makes a nonsense of the three abreast seat width. Not popular on the Portsmouth Direct line so can't imagine it going down well on HS2. Imagine the headlines about billions being spent on 'sardine trains'.
Sorry, I meant 2 x 1 seating in first class.
 

Krokodil

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and here we have the problem!

Two 200m sets =

2 first class section
2 buffets
2 kitchens
2 trolley spaces

On every 400m service!
But there won't be any double sets heading to Manchester unless the Chancellor gets his chequebook out to pay for the platforms.

Providing duplicate facilities on a pair of 200m units (some of which will split to serve completely separate destinations) isn't quite as inefficient as the duplicate facilities on a pair of 92m Voyagers.
 

Halifaxlad

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The HS2 rolling stock specifications lists the options as:

  • Catering trolley with storage point
  • Cafe-shop (has a convection oven, more storage, chilled storage, and a hot drinks machine)
  • Catering kiosk (only chilled storage for drinks, some storage for snacks, and a hot drinks machine).

These aren't all required but the options that must be presented. With original full HS2 I'd imagine Cafe-shop and (possibly) catering trolley on the classic sets and just a catering kiosk (or nothing) on the captive sets.

Ive been looking at page 205 of that document.

Anyway my main point is that running around two sets coupled together as planned will only lead to duplication of pretty much everything as they are all to be the same. Don't forget captive sets have been scrapped!

Depending on what layout is chosen 'The One-Space Layout shall include at least eight Toilets. ' two of these are required to be accessible, so each 400m service may have 16 toilets with 4 being accessible toilets.
 

Nottingham59

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Does the HS2 train design allow for trainsets to be mixed around?

One way to increase capacity into Manchester would be to re-arrange all the 200m sets into 275m and 125m sets. 275m trains will fit into platforms 5, 8 and 9 at Piccadilly and probably 6 and 7. Can 275m trains fit at Liverpool and Glasgow?

With no infrastructure spending, these sets could be used at 275+125=400m to Curzon St and 275 or 2x125=250m to Manchester. Differences in acceleration and top speed between the two sets could be accommodated by timetabling, as the main leg of HS2 to London will be nowhere near its design intensity of 17tph.
 

350401

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Does the HS2 train design allow for trainsets to be mixed around?

One way to increase capacity into Manchester would be to re-arrange all the 200m sets into 275m and 125m sets. 275m trains will fit into platforms 5, 8 and 9 at Piccadilly and probably 6 and 7. Can 275m trains fit at Liverpool and Glasgow?

With no infrastructure spending, these sets could be used at 275+125=400m to Curzon St and 275 or 2x125=250m to Manchester. Differences in acceleration and top speed between the two sets could be accommodated by timetabling, as the main leg of HS2 to London will be nowhere near its design intensity of 17tph.
I don't believe that this is possible, as I think there is a requirement for the train to be able to split in half - similar to the Eurostar units. This is for redundancy, safety and evacuation reasons - in the event of an incident, people can evacuate to the front or rear 4 coaches. It would be possible to insert additional trailer cars to bring the units up to 10 or 12 coaches. This would add between 74 and 84 seats per trailer, depending on the number of tables etc.
 
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Nottingham59

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I don't believe that this is possible, as I think there is a requirement for the train to be able to split in half - similar to the Eurostar units. This is for redundancy, safety and evacuation reasons - in the event of an incident, people can evacuate to the front or rear 4 coaches. It would be possible to insert additional trailer cars to bring the units up to 10 or 12 coaches. This would add between 74 and 84 seats per trailer, depending on the number of tables etc.
That is unfortunate. I wonder how many lives would have been saved anywhere in the world if all trains over say the past 100 years had had that capability to split in half in the event of such an incident?

Maybe this requirement could be looked at again?
 

350401

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That is unfortunate. I wonder how many lives would have been saved anywhere in the world if all trains over say the past 100 years had had that capability to split in half in the event of such an incident?

Maybe this requirement could be looked at again?
There is also the issue of having 2 separate sub fleets to maintain, and having to ensure that units stick to their diagrammed routes. It’s not insurmountable but is a problem. If I were the DFT, I’d definitely look at it as a solution.

The options for rolling stock are probably reasonably summarised as -
1) keep units as 200m and reconfigure internally to increase capacity, ideally to around 600 seats. This means sacrificing first class and potentially the buffet, plus also removing bays of tables.
2) keep units at 2x200m, have 400m platforms at Crewe and maybe Carlisle, and use a lot more portion working - this makes the most of limited Handsacre paths but there is a big reliability issue. However, the trains are specified to attach and detach quickly and in theory reliably.
3) Add 2 trailer coaches, to bring units up to 10 coaches and adding around 150-170 seats per unit; but removing ability to portion work and reducing length of Birmingham services
4) as option 2 but lengthen Manchester Piccadilly to 400m; allowing these services to be full length. SDO to be used at Stockport, Wilmslow, Stoke and Macclesfield.

Currently, the funding is only available for option 1 - hence the FT article. Option 2 is however still a possibility.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd probably favour (4) to be honest. You'll easily fill 400m x 3 an hour from Manchester so this would be a worthwhile spend.

Second I'd go with (3) then (2) or a combination.

If (1) is seriously considered you might as well just keep Pendolinos on the WCML instead or as well.
 

Nottingham59

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2) keep units at 2x200m, have 400m platforms at Crewe and maybe Carlisle, and use a lot more portion working - this makes the most of limited Handsacre paths but there is a big reliability issue. However, the trains are specified to attach and detach quickly and in theory reliably.
If there's any money to lengthen platforms, I reckon that Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle could all have some 400m platforms without too much disruption.

4) as option 2 but lengthen Manchester Piccadilly to 400m; allowing these services to be full length. SDO to be used at Stockport, Wilmslow, Stoke and Macclesfield.

I'd probably favour (4) to be honest. You'll easily fill 400m x 3 an hour from Manchester so this would be a worthwhile spend.
This would I think be feasible, and not too disruptive. But probably for another thread.
 
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HSTEd

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I don't believe that this is possible, as I think there is a requirement for the train to be able to split in half - similar to the Eurostar units. This is for redundancy, safety and evacuation reasons - in the event of an incident, people can evacuate to the front or rear 4 coaches. It would be possible to insert additional trailer cars to bring the units up to 10 or 12 coaches. This would add between 74 and 84 seats per trailer, depending on the number of tables etc.
The TSIs do not require this so far as I know.

And in any case this would not prevent assymetrical units.
 

Energy

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The TSIs do not require this so far as I know.

And in any case this would not prevent assymetrical units.
Indeed, I'm struggling to find any reference to this in the Train Technical Specification, or anywhere else.

The HS2 tunnels have ventilation shafts with evacuation facilities while the channel tunnel has its evacuation rules because it lacks these.
 

Nottingham59

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Indeed, I'm struggling to find any reference to this in the Train Technical Specification, or anywhere else.
Apart from Section 5.2:
"The nominal length of the Unit shall be 200m. It has been determined that all Units should
be the same length, with no requirement for a Unit to be capable of being lengthened or
shortened. This supports the overall HS2 business case."

It's not obvious to me quite how that supports the overall HS2 business case, other than raising the cost of flexibility so making curtailment of the project more expensive.
 

JamesT

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Apart from Section 5.2:
"The nominal length of the Unit shall be 200m. It has been determined that all Units should
be the same length, with no requirement for a Unit to be capable of being lengthened or
shortened. This supports the overall HS2 business case."

It's not obvious to me quite how that supports the overall HS2 business case, other than raising the cost of flexibility so making curtailment of the project more expensive.
If you know that all your rolling stock is going to be a fixed consist or a pair of them then that allows for a lot of simplification of your infrastructure. Flexibility in your rolling stock is also a cost, putting couplers between carriages rather than fixed links that need the workshop to split, etc.
Reducing these costs, which don’t appear to have a downside in revenue terms, would improve the business case.
 

Halifaxlad

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One way to increase capacity into Manchester would be to re-arrange all the 200m sets into 275m and 125m sets. 275m trains will fit into platforms 5, 8 and 9 at Piccadilly and probably 6 and 7. Can 275m trains fit at Liverpool and Glasgow?
Surely it would be more sensible to have 300m and 150m sets since the latter is half the capacity of the first ?

As for Glasgow Platform 2 is 292m!
For Liverpool I dont believe Lime St can accept anything greater than 200m although I would need to check that!
 

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